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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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ConfusedCanuck said:
First off your right about Productivity Like No Other I was thinking Student of the Odd my bad. But the thing is about research we don't have to do it every turn if we don't want to if we take an apprentice now we lose an action for a century training that student and at the moment I don't want to give up one of our five actions when we can devote them to other tasks. Ultimately it is an action economy as you said and it comes down to what we believe will benefit us and the greater dwarf realm at this time. And for me I believe we would be of greater use to Karak Anzor if we work on other projects and not on an apprentice.
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Remember that research will usually only benefit the Karaz Ankor in terms of the equipment that Snorri personally makes because it's apparently very rare for runesmiths to share runes, particularly outside the master apprentice relationship.

Each apprentice we train can go on in turn to do their own research, make their own items, and train their own apprentices. Training is an investment in the future that grows and compounds. Unlike in other settings, research generally isn't. Indeed, it will tend to have diminishing returns; as Snorri develops a wider and wider portfolio of bespoke runes, the amount each of those runes is used will tend to decrease, as he has a fixed number of actions spread across more potential creations, so new developments will compete for time with existing ones. Apprentices don't have this problem. They generate their own actions.

The main way we've seen round this is to have a continual succession of apprentices he can pass his knowledge onto.
 
Zaratustra said:
So every Plan I am seeing asks for a bundle of the kings crest feathers, so I have to ask, am I the only one who remenbers if we ask the boon we have to design the armor the turn after or does no one else wants to learn what the pile of materials we have does before deciding the runes ?
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As far as I'm aware there's no time limit after we make our request. It's simply the first step in the action chain
 
Zaratustra said:
So every Plan I am seeing asks for a bundle of the kings crest feathers, so I have to ask, am I the only one who remenbers if we ask the boon we have to design the armor the turn after or does no one else wants to learn what the pile of materials we have does before deciding the runes ?
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I remember. That is in fact the point.

I want to use Pure Gromril and Dragon Ogre stuff in it so I plan to study Dragon Ogre stuff turn 22.
 
[X] Plan: Movement of Griffons
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:]
--[X] Request that he look for a particularly powerful creature and bring us its corpse
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action]
--[X] Optional Write-in: a Shard of Voidstone, a blueprint of our smelter, and an Adamant bar
-[X] [Simple] Warded Aeries: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. [2 Actions]
--[X] At QM discretion, use up to T3 materials freely on this project where appropriate. Small amounts of T4 Elder Frostwyrm Hide may also be used.
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. [30 Favour]
-[X] The Movement of Things Pt. 2: [Cost: (8 -3) =5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. [1 Action and x3 Prods]

[X] Plan Conclave of Light With Apprentices
[X] Plan: Dwarf Santa Visits the Griffons, Plus Yorri
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
I'm not so sure we can. We already had a Griffon option done without our input, and Morgrim has practically challenged the Runesmiths to make it worthwhile. Dolgi is invested in their well being, and I want to be part of that before it ends and I think it's pretty damn cool and has potential to score a Legendary Deed, or at least Epic. By that same token I imagine that even if they don't after Morgrim's challenge, they will if they see us putting a lot of effort into it, making it even greater. Plus, some of soulcake's best work is in making things.
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We had one action get some some progress done, one with the other being a third of the Griffins getting armored. We don't need to do the Sky Kings request this very turn and we are still likely not going to be done for a while.


@soulcake can you please explain if we can still do some of the griffin action next turn? Feels like we should have more than one turn to heavily to stuff since as a Runelord we can just flat out do stuff that other people can't do like high quality runes that others just can't replicate in quality.
 
[X] Plan All the Griffon Stuff
-[X] [Simple] Warded Aeries: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 3 actions
--[X] At QM discretion, use up to T3 materials freely on this project where appropriate. Small amounts of T4 Elder Frostwyrm Hide may also be used.
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] A bundle of his crest feathers. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action] 1 Action.
--[X] Optional Write-in: An Adamant bar and blueprint of an Adamant Furnace, and a shard of Voidstone.
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress. if taken no action input required, but can add actions to overflow if desired. Lose rights to the land itself, Temple of Valaya will pay and provide material.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. 30 Favor.
-[X] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 Action.
--[X] Destructive Research: [Cost: 3 Shaggoth Corpses, 9 Dragon Ogre Corpses] Gain 2 Progress, can be taken multiple times. Three Times.

[X] BelligerentGnu

[X] Plan Conclave of Light With Apprentices
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] A bundle of his crest feathers. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour.
-[X] Apprentice Hunt: [Cost: 1 Action] Apprentice Vote after Turn Results. 1 Action
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. 1 Action.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action] 1 Action.
--[X] Optional Write-in: An Adamant bar and blueprint of an Adamant Furnace, and a shard of Voidstone.
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress. if taken no action input required, but can add actions to overflow if desired. Lose rights to the land itself, Temple of Valaya will pay and provide material.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. 30 Favor.
-[X] The Secrets of Light?: [Cost: (8 -5) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 Action.
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 +1 progress. 1 Prod.
-[X] The Movement of Things Pt. 2: [Cost: (8 -3) =5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 Action.
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. 2 Prods.

So! The point of this plan is to try and get a lot of stuff done. On the first part it takes the Boon of the Sky for crest feathers from the King of the Skies, so that we can use them in Master Runes of Grimnir in other projects. This sets up studying the Dragon Ogres next turn and poking combos for it, while working on the Aeries on turn 22.

It goes apprentice hunting because well *gestures at apprentice moment in the update*. Along with all the other reasons I mention previously. And also its pretty clear that sometimes on really good rolls Journeymen near our home can do simple requests for us and that's pretty huge.

Prod for prod for more research stuff. Then the Prods and actions are spent to open up the Secrets of Light chain and complete part two of Movement of Things. The cave clearing and Vent venting actions are taken by spending our enormous wads of favor and giving the waters as a temple donation. We'd be loosing whatever special things we can do with the site itself of which I assume there are some but frankly I'm only interested in the water.

Alternative plan number one is more about the Griffons and a variant of this alternate ditches apprentices.


[X] Plan Conclave of Air
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] A bundle of his crest feathers. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour.
-[X] Apprentice Hunt: [Cost: 1 Action] Apprentice Vote after Turn Results. 1 Action
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. 1 Action.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action] 1 Action.
--[X] Optional Write-in: An Adamant bar and blueprint of an Adamant Furnace, and a shard of Voidstone.
-[X] [Simple] Warded Aeries: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Actions.
--[X] At QM discretion, use up to T3 materials freely on this project where appropriate. Small amounts of T4 Elder Frostwyrm Hide may also be used.
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress. if taken no action input required, but can add actions to overflow if desired. Lose rights to the land itself, Temple of Valaya will pay and provide material.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. 30 Favor.

That gets all of the simple requests done and over with and opens up turn 22 to finishing Secrets of Light, doing Dragon Ogre research and combo testing. And even if we don't get to play more with Yorri he can still walk away from this with information.

[X] Plan Conclave of Light and Air No Apprentices
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] A bundle of his crest feathers. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour.
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. 1 Action.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action] 1 Action.
--[X] Optional Write-in: An Adamant bar and blueprint of an Adamant Furnace, and a shard of Voidstone.
-[X] [Simple] Warded Aeries: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Actions.
--[X] At QM discretion, use up to T3 materials freely on this project where appropriate. Small amounts of T4 Elder Frostwyrm Hide may also be used.
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress. if taken no action input required, but can add actions to overflow if desired. Lose rights to the land itself, Temple of Valaya will pay and provide material.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. 30 Favor.
-[X] The Secrets of Light?: [Cost: (8 -5) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 Action.
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 +1 progress. 1 Prod.

This trades apprentices for getting all of our Simple Requests done and opening up Secrets of Light chain.
 
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[X] Plan All the Griffon Stuff

honestly i don't care as long as we don't take an aprentice this turn, might change my vote tomorrow morning idk, as long as we can actually finish the armour before our next aprentice i am fine
 
UlseDovThur said:
[X] Plan: Movement of Griffons
-[X] Boon from the Sky: [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:]
--[X] Request that he look for a particularly powerful creature and bring us its corpse
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods.
[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action]
-[X] Optional Write-in: a Shard If Voidstone, a blueprint of our smelter, and an Adamant bar
-[X] [Simple] Warded Aeries: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. [2 Actions]
-[X] [Simple] Vent Venting Pt. ?: [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
--[X] Religious Donation: Gain 2 progress.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. [30 Favour]
-[X] The Movement of Things Pt. 2: [Cost: (8 -3) =5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. [1 Action and x3 Prods]
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This needs to be formatted differently for the Tally to properly organize it. I think you need one dash in front of "The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg" option, and then an additional dash for the Optional Write in.
 
Zaratustra said:
But if you ask the boon now, we will have to design turn 22, before we have the Dragon Ogre results.
So how do you plan to factor in the results we won't have ?
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Because what soulcake was saying was that we open the request and its there and he's expecting it. We can't just sit on our laurels about it. Materials research is mainly about the Runes and I don't intend to finish the project turn 22. I intend to finish it turn 23.
 
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Red Bovine said:
@soulcake can you please explain if we can still do some of the griffin action next turn? Feels like we should have more than one turn to heavily to stuff since as a Runelord we can just flat out do stuff that other people can't do like high quality runes that others just can't replicate in quality.
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The comissions for the armour will stay indefinitely. Up in the air if someone finishes the Aerie before you, though its unlikely barring another crit.
 
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[X] Plan Conclave of Light With Apprentices

Need apprentices to actually spread the knowledge we gain. Just look at Dolgi, a right proper lad. Wouldn't we want more beardlings like him..
 
Alratan said:
Remember that research will usually only benefit the Karaz Ankor in terms of the equipment that Snorri personally makes because it's apparently very rare for runesmiths to share runes, particularly outside the master apprentice relationship.

Each apprentice we train can go on in turn to do their own research, make their own items, and train their own apprentices. Training is an investment in the future that grows and compounds. Unlike in other settings, research generally isn't. Indeed, it will tend to have diminishing returns; as Snorri develops a wider and wider portfolio of bespoke runes, the amount each of those runes is used will tend to decrease, as he has a fixed number of actions spread across more potential creations, so new developments will compete for time with existing ones. Apprentices don't have this problem. They generate their own actions.

The main way we've seen round this is to have a continual succession of apprentices he can pass his knowledge onto.
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I'm not disagreeing with you here Alratan but I don't want to be constantly training apprentices I feel like it would quickly get repetitive for me at least. So let's just agree to disagree I'm not saying your wrong with what you have said and there are several points I agree with even. But I don't want to invest on an apprentice at this time later sure but not right now. I will say this was a wonderful discussion we had and I thank you for having it!
 
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soulcake said:
[ ] The Secrets of Light?: [Cost: (8 -5) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. That moment with the shield and sunray, the light of your torch glinting off the crystal, both sparked something in your mind. An ember that refused to be burned out. You've done permutations to the standard Rune of Light and a few on Master Yorri's Rune of Reflection, but maybe there could be more?
- [ ] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 +1 progress. Master Yorri may have some knowledge he'd be willing to share.
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This research gives the most prod power. If we are taking advantage of Yorri this is the thing to ask him about.
 
[X] Plan Conclave of Light and Air No Apprentices
[X] Plan: Movement of Griffons

@BungieONI Looking at your plans, All the Griffon Stuff has the whole "Use T3 and below stuff we have for enhancing the project", but Conclave of Air/Light(no Apprentices) doesn't. Is there any reason for that?
 
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[X] Plan Proddity, Proddity, PROD!
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods.
-[X] The Grand Conclave/Rhunkalbrogg: [Cost: 1 action]
--[X] Optional Write-in: An Adamant bar and blueprint of an Adamant Furnace, and a shard of Voidstone.
-[X] The Secrets of Light?: [Cost: (8 -5) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
- [X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 +1 progress. 1 prod.
-[X] The Mind of Things Pt. 1: [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
- [X] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. 1 prod.
[X] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
- [X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 of progress. 1 prod.
-[X] [Simple] Cave Clearing Pt. 1: [Cost: 3 actions]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: variable favours] Gain 1 progress per 10 favour, can be taken multiple times to autocompletion. 30 Favor.

Squeezing out research for last Yorri's turn, since we will likely be doing griffon stuff and apprentices for the foresealeable future.
 
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