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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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In the blink of an eye, it tears the chest open and pulls out the beast's heart with its beak, gulping it down in one single bite.

The creature caws once, then you see its body shudder as energies flood its form prompting further change, muscles grow a tad larger, the claws grow sharper. The reflexive flex afterwards pulping the head beneath it.

Only after the finish of the change does it seem to notice the horde of stupefied trolls and four confused dwarfs staring at it.

The beast screeches and lightning crackles along its body, making its fur and feathers bristle, then it dissapears.

The trolls die in a blur of screams and feathers, the four of you staring as the beast concludes its grisly work it stops and stares at you. Its eyes roaming over the four of you, looking for any sign of threat or danger.

You note with some trepidation that its eyes hone in on your amulet, the glint of silver seeming to captivate it for a moment before its greater intelligence pushes back against the instinct. The beast caws again, quieter now but still loud enough to echo for a good few meters, then digs through the pile of gore for a particularly shiny piece of gold that Greedy Troll had before blasting off into the air with a pump of its onyx wings.
FELLAS WE GOT A NEW BEST FRIEND
 
Question if we make the Super Golem can we later create golem sized equipment like a giant axe or hammer for it to use? Since I like the idea of upgrading the thing over time.
Yes? That's been brought up pretty frequently as a thing we can do, and its in the write in action cost for the FAQ.
 
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway
[X] Plan All In
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
 
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Guys, what would go well with Master Rune of Valaya and Rune of Healing with Greedy One's Heart? Another Rune of Healing to increase the effects further and stay within Valaya's theme?

Take the rune of Valaya you were inscribing now. Once complete, the Rune, along with a host of other effects, would enhance things, other Runes included, that encompassed the kind of themes and topics one associated with Valaya herself. Healing brews grew tastier, hearths grew warmer, walls felt sturdier, Runes of warding grew stronger, Runes of Healing more potent the list went on and on.
 
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 2 Apprentice actions
 
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- Epiphany! 1d2 +2 =3 progress to random research. Greedy One's Heart completed
Oh my gosh that's amazing -- we... we just got the Greedy Heart research! :D
- Critical Fail threshold reached, Grimnir calls for a Great Throng, one to wipe the mountains clear of daemonic taint once more.
Oh dear and that's not amazing. D:
- The mystery revealed? A griffon that consumes greedy troll parts has been found and many believe it is the source of the mysterious deaths these past few decades. ???
... You know, when the Griffon appeared in the update, I immediately wondered to myself: 'What would happen if we fed the Greedy Heart to it?'

Assuming we were somehow able to get the friendship and alliance of Griffons, then... ... Well actually... I wonder if the Griffon would become intelligent enough to speak, if it ate the Greedy Heart? If so, that'd be cool.

A Griffon Lord. A king of beasts of the sky.
Gain:
- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep: Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.
Pulling energy from the deep, eh? That sounds interesting somehow. Desire to craft a Dwarf-sized rune golem, and see if it becomes like strange kin to a Dwarf, increases...

Though given how big the original troll was, it can probably be sized for a huge Greedy Troll-sized Dwarf of course. The thing is, I'm wondering whether making a Golem be Dwarf-sized might have some metaphysical impact.

Still. If the Golem can help out at the Gromril Forge as either Dwarf-sized or Troll-sized, it's fine either way.
 
Giant golem or even just a regular one made of adamanium.

Add in something to give it sentience and whoa.
Nah more like an advancement on the rune of animation or something.

I dunno to me it seems like the logical next step is making thing smart after making it able to move.
Yay more Sapient golem support :)
Well its basically a case of in my mind: What is a Golem/Gronti for? Being a great big nigh-unbreakable and tireless guardian that squishes gribblies.
Well, a lot of that is dross, the point of a golem warrior, overall, is a few things, it's to be a hard point on the battlefield (similar to a hero unit) where the enemy's attention can be drawn, and for it to be able to survive after the enemy's attention is drawn to it. One of the easier ways of doing this is to just make it huge, and if it's dumb then it kinda needs to be huge to be a threat as it wouldn't be able to respond as well as a normal combatant, however as proven by hero units, you don't have to be big to get the enemy's attention, and unlike a regular golem they can work outside just their orders, they can prioritize for themselves which is pretty good on a shifting battlefield to respond to unexpected tactics. And I believe that with intelligence the golem could become more dangerous than without, they can learn, use skill alongside what brute strength they'd have (and even without being huge I'd think Golems would be much stronger than a living thing of the same size, they are made of very heavy metal, they are the weight of the heaviest armor groups and more while maintaining more freedom of movement, and being more durable as it's made entirely of Metal rather than just armor). This is, of course, all aside from the pride of making a sapient golem, which would be quite an accomplishment I think.
It being sapient both does and doesn't help such endeavors. It helps because its more intelligent, and can make more detailed judgments as well as tactics
You even say that yourself here, though you miss out on the idea of the Golem growing more skilled at actually fighting over time with sapience, most of our people are good because skill, this would be them but 100x more durable and 10x as strong, meaning it would be harder for anyone to lead them around as (if we fight in it) elves would be doing in the War of Vengeance, since their whole thing is being fast and skilled, with a golem as skilled as them, and about as fast it would be more likely to take them down than just fast and strong (though our golem would be strong too)
we can get stuff like more skillful fighting with the Rune of Brotherhood on a helmet or talisman
Don't think the nerfed version would allow that, since it's temporary, and would that not tie it's skill to the army it's with? As they die it would be able to do less as the people who's skills the Rune is copying die, also this still loses out on the tactics front and would the skills it copies carry over with a large golem? I mean, very different sizes, reaches, etc, could probably bring the golem to acceptable standards combat wise, though not to mastery
Or putting a combo of Rune of Parrying (supernatural parrying skill), Rune of Striking (Weapon moves/guides you to strike vulnuerable points), Rune of Speed (Go really fast), on a weapon it uses.
This would use more slots than just the one we would (presumably) use for the intelligence, and we could use those slots with the small golem for more directly strong things, like we did with meteorfall, Though that combo is a good idea for a weapon we should make at some point

I'm super biased though, I just want to make sure ya don't completely discount smart Ymir out of hand. I'm way behind now, so sorry if these were pointed out
 
Something that can be great, immediately helpful, and and noticed by Grimnir himself from the very beginning, attached to our name as the chief reason Kraka Drak connected with the Karaz Ankor, is extremely fun to think of.
 
There's also a bigger problem with golem-armor that makes me less interested in it that I point out in an edit. As for close supervision, not all the time, take the Gronti by the Smelter. They're just there as part of the defenses.

If Snorri invents it, he's going to be the only guy who can make it for a long time because he'll need to teach the method to make it and the modified runes to someone else. Many someone elses will need to learn it in order for it to become widespread.

Golems don't require that overhead, since most Runesmiths nowadays know how to make them.

And the strategic limits are pretty damn big, when we have to consider that the heart is basically a strategic asset. We want to make things with it that give the most strategic benefit. And I do not think the armor qualifies, for the reasons you point out.

The Master Rune of Waking is noted to be a particularly rare rune, so I strongly doubt most runesmiths can make them, so I suspect we'd have to invest effort to spread it as well if we want there to be large numbers of golems about.

Being part of fixed defences for a known location is very different to being able to operate on an arbitrary set of battlefields, I feel.

Given this is Warhammer, you sometimes need to kill or at least survive fighting very hard targets. There are many occasions where taking out the latest Everchosen or the Greater Daemon is required to achieve strategic victory, and for many of things would be much easier to kill if you can combone the skill of a dwarf lord with the sheer power of a golem.
 
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Yay more Sapient golem support :)

Well, a lot of that is dross, the point of a golem warrior, overall, is a few things, it's to be a hard point on the battlefield (similar to a hero unit) where the enemy's attention can be drawn, and for it to be able to survive after the enemy's attention is drawn to it. One of the easier ways of doing this is to just make it huge, and if it's dumb then it kinda needs to be huge to be a threat as it wouldn't be able to respond as well as a normal combatant, however as proven by hero units, you don't have to be big to get the enemy's attention, and unlike a regular golem they can work outside just their orders, they can prioritize for themselves which is pretty good on a shifting battlefield to respond to unexpected tactics. And I believe that with intelligence the golem could become more dangerous than without, they can learn, use skill alongside what brute strength they'd have (and even without being huge I'd think Golems would be much stronger than a living thing of the same size, they are made of very heavy metal, they are the weight of the heaviest armor groups and more while maintaining more freedom of movement, and being more durable as it's made entirely of Metal rather than just armor). This is, of course, all aside from the pride of making a sapient golem, which would be quite an accomplishment I think.

You even say that yourself here, though you miss out on the idea of the Golem growing more skilled at actually fighting over time with sapience, most of our people are good because skill, this would be them but 100x more durable and 10x as strong, meaning it would be harder for anyone to lead them around as (if we fight in it) elves would be doing in the War of Vengeance, since their whole thing is being fast and skilled, with a golem as skilled as them, and about as fast it would be more likely to take them down than just fast and strong (though our golem would be strong too)

Don't think the nerfed version would allow that, since it's temporary, and would that not tie it's skill to the army it's with? As they die it would be able to do less as the people who's skills the Rune is copying die, also this still loses out on the tactics front and would the skills it copies carry over with a large golem? I mean, very different sizes, reaches, etc, could probably bring the golem to acceptable standards combat wise, though not to mastery

This would use more slots than just the one we would (presumably) use for the intelligence, and we could use those slots with the small golem for more directly strong things, like we did with meteorfall, Though that combo is a good idea for a weapon we should make at some point

I'm super biased though, I just want to make sure ya don't completely discount smart Ymir out of hand. I'm way behind now, so sorry if these were pointed out
Please don't spagetti post stuff, it is hard to read. Just quote the entire thing please.

Like, when I put forward the proposal, sapience wasn't on the table because we have no idea how to reliably achieve it and no examples of it have ever been done that I'm aware of.

In terms of rune space, if we need to put a specific rune on a golem to give it sapience, then that's two runes already used with another taken up by the Master Rune of Awakening. Assuming its not a variant of the Master Rune of Awakening, which is its own entire kettle of fish.

Leaving only a single rune slot for use making it good at being a big face smashing golem. So faced with this issue I thought to myself "Well people are going to want to do sapient golem shenanigans because of giant robot ideas soooo what do? Ah Rune of Fortitude, something interesting might happen and if it doesn't oh well it's still tough and good with the Heart". Put another way, even if the Rune of Fortitude makes doesn't make it sapient, it makes it a better golem, especially with the Heart.

Plus there's the ethical dilemmas of a sapient golem child that we have just made like, how the heck the rest of Dwarf culture is going to see it? Because that is extremely unusual, as in never before been done ever, and that sort of thing isn't always roses and sunshine with our be-plaited and bearded fellows.

But mostly, rune space because I see sapience being pretty much in competition with face smashing and then some increased project over head thrown in.
 
Given that we've just had clarification that the Apprentices wouldn't leave this turn, isn't Plan Leaving the nest Underway obsolete?
 
I would make the golem out of stone, with mithril or adamant armor on weak spots and hands. It is simply more economical to do if the golem is damaged. I do not think that the heart grows back a big mitril or adamant (anti magic metal) arm.

Otherwise we could also make a run with which you can let gromil grow naturally.
 
@LordEdric Your plan has two errors: We will still have 2 apprentice actions this turn, and the last line should be indented with a - to be properly formatted and picked up by the vote tally
 
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