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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
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If we're talking age categories then they could be made while younger and below CR 15 easily. If Chromatics are possible in the Flesh Forge, especially Reds which get above CR 20 when they get older, that's implicit proof that the Flesh Forge only cares about current CR, not what CR the creature grows into.
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That's my read too. I'm thinking about rebuilding it from the ground up as a DEX based fighter while I'm at it, since it kinda fits the shadow theme more and a rogue-ish dragon would be nice.
We could give Garin one too.
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In that case I would suggest downsizing a bit. Large is enough for a mount and costs less DEX than Huge.
It would also reduce the penalty to stealth.
The 3.5 Shadow Dragon has an ability to go into full concealment in anything less bright than direct sunlight or a Daylight spell, that's pretty neat for rogue-like dragon. Surprise!Dragon at close range is one of the things that can ruin anyone's day.
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[X] Goldfish
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Next step: Get Yss to add a few age categories after the product leaves the forge.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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I was mostly just concerned with the CR cap, though I certainly wouldn't mind if we could grow a contingent of CR 15 Myrkdreki (and it'll piss Tiamat off, so that's a nice bonus). I don't have any issues with the CR 19 version being a unique creation since DP gave his approval.
If you are going to design them as proper Dragons, they should cap out at CR 15 and those we grow could already be fully matured. I don't see the point of deliberately growing them at younger Age Categories.
These things are neat and could fill a good niche in our creature forces, but we can't just treat them like they're flying mounts. The CR 19 version isn't just really powerful, it's also got very high mental attributes which could easily exceed those of the Orphne Lord. We can't grow intelligent beings and just give them away like pets. Instead, it would need to be a partnership between virtual equals. With that in mind, I would remove the Rider Synergy ability and replace it with the Shadow Dragon's ability to almost perfectly blend into shadows, while perhaps extending that effect to a single rider. It's more fitting, IMO.
Also, before we plan to partner the CR 19 Myrkdreki with the Orphne Lord, we should get a firm idea from @DragonParadox how strong the Orphne Lord has become. Unless he's made it to CR 17+, I wouldn't try to partner him with the unique Myrkdreki. The power disparity between them would be too great. He might just need a "regular" CR 15 version, while the unique Myrkdreki remains among our forces.
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I'd love to post you what I got so far, but my phone eats the table formatting when I paste into SV.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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I sympathize. I've tried to edit a table on my phone before while I was at work. They're bad enough using a regular computer, but on a tiny little touch screen it's just an exercise in frustration.
No hurry. There's plenty of time to get the Myrkdreki firmed up before they go into production.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
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...I felt like a heathen when both y'all are talking about mobile interface. Considering that 99.9% of the time I used my Phone to read the Quest.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
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It isnt the reading that's the trouble, its redacting stuff.
I can relate to their troubles, having had to edit MAs/RAs/Summon-Sheets before.
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I've put it here.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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- Formerly of the Far Realm
I see that you've added in Age Category-based abilities. Some of them are too powerful, though, or need to be better defined. Individually, not so much, but taken in aggregate, they quickly become excessive, IMO, even if most of them are only found in the older examples of the species.
| Gain Full Concealment in areas with less then daylight illumination. |
| All natural weapons gain Ghost Touch. |
| Become Incorporeal at will and Planeshift to Shadow Plane and back as Standard Action. Rider included in both, but no others. |
| 3/Day; Can breathe a cone of living shadows. Creatures who fail a Fortitude save are blinded and deafened for 1d4 rounds and take 2d6 points of Str drain. A successful save negates the blindness, deafness and reduces Str drain to 1d4 points. |
| As standard action, confuse everyone in Frightful Presence reach for 1d4 rounds. Will negates (CHA based). |
| All natural attacks, special attacks and breathweapon deal 1 Negative Level. |
| 3/Day; As Foreboding Whispers, but also deals 2d6 Wisdom Drain, on save this is lowered to 1d4. |
| All enemies killed rise as shadows under the Myrkdrekis control within 1d4 rounds. |
Being able to Confuse everyone within Frightful Presence range is ridiculously powerful, considering how far that extends in Dragons. If this ability stays, it really needs to have a limited number of targets it can affect. Maybe equal to their Charisma bonus?
The level drain from Natural Attacks, Breath Weapon, etc., needs to allow a saving throw.
Maddening Whispers should inflict Wisdom damage, not Wisdom Drain. That's permanent damage and something very rarely found in creatures, especially such a high amount. The saving throw should completely negate the effect, too.
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1. How about dialing the range back down to 60 ft. instead?
2. That's a Umbral Dragon ability. Though I just noticed I messed up when copying it since it only works on claws and bites. No save there either though.
3. Why negate it entirely? At this level it's pretty normal to have still some damage after saves. Drain fixed to damage. Can't keep that straight.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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1. I would still limit the number affected, even if it's just limited to a 60ft radius centered on the Dragon. Confusion is a really powerful effect which can fuck up a group, so being able to use it on such a large area, and potentially affecting dozens or even hundreds of creatures simultaneously, is too strong. Have you considered just giving them the Confusion spell as a 3/Day spell-like ability instead? That would allow them to use it at a good range, along with discrete targeting rather than indiscriminately affecting everyone around the Dragon. It's a 4th level spell that only affects a 15ft radius, so that also puts into perspective how powerful a version which can affect a 60ft+ radius really is.
2) No, it does allow a saving throw, though DC 32 is very high and most creatures would fail to beat it.
3) Because unavoidable mental attribute damage, even a relatively small amount, is extremely powerful, especially when it penalizes the stat which is used to resist the effect. A successful save but a bad damage roll could knock 4 points of Wisdom off a target, which could easily remove a Wisdom-based caster's ability to use multiple levels of spells. If there's going to be unavoidable damage, limit it to just one point on a successful save.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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So I've previously mentioned the idea of using various types of magic to help train our Scholarium students, having them fight Summoned creatures or run through mock dungeon delves. I hope that's something that is happening in the background, but it could be a bit difficult to arrange logistically, depending on what scenario is being run and how many support casters would be needed to make it happen safely.
Looking over Teana's current spell list, however, I've noticed that she could really easily set this up all on her own.
First she could use Mirage Arcana, to set the stage, whether it's a dungeon, battlefield, Sothoryosi jungle, etc.
Then she casts Shadow Healing on the participants. Not only does this provide the Initiates with a solid buffer to prevent life threatening damage during the scenario, but it also makes them even more unlikely to resist Teana's spells, which make the scenario seem more "real".
After that, she can duplicate any Summon Monster I to VI spells to Summon suitable enemies or allies for the Initiates. Or the Initiates could fight one another or other volunteers, such as Legion trainees, Inquisition agents, etc.
But it's Friend to Foe that really brings it all together. Initiates who choose to participate in these mock adventurer scenarios can use them to learn tactics, teamwork, spell utility, etc., but they probably wouldn't normally be able to fully immerse themselves into the right mindset to treat it as a real life or death type of struggle which can earn them XP in excess of what they would get from study and practice. Friend to Foe removes that barrier, since the affected Initiates would then wholeheartedly believe they were in a situation where they had to fight for their lives. At this point, they've moved beyond Danger Room-style training into seemingly life or death combat.
Of course, all of this would have to be used on willing Initiates, probably on those who are trying to break through the 5th/6th level barrier.
Her Illusion spells, especially Shadow Illusions, are not only very difficult to resist, but they now are all automatically Extended, which makes certain effects last long enough to be more useful for training. As a Sorcerer, she's already got plenty of spell slots to spend on this, but every time she casts a Shadow spell, there's only a 50% chance the spell slot is expended. That makes it easy for her to run several Initiates through multiple scenarios each day.
Looking over Teana's current spell list, however, I've noticed that she could really easily set this up all on her own.
First she could use Mirage Arcana, to set the stage, whether it's a dungeon, battlefield, Sothoryosi jungle, etc.
Then she casts Shadow Healing on the participants. Not only does this provide the Initiates with a solid buffer to prevent life threatening damage during the scenario, but it also makes them even more unlikely to resist Teana's spells, which make the scenario seem more "real".
After that, she can duplicate any Summon Monster I to VI spells to Summon suitable enemies or allies for the Initiates. Or the Initiates could fight one another or other volunteers, such as Legion trainees, Inquisition agents, etc.
But it's Friend to Foe that really brings it all together. Initiates who choose to participate in these mock adventurer scenarios can use them to learn tactics, teamwork, spell utility, etc., but they probably wouldn't normally be able to fully immerse themselves into the right mindset to treat it as a real life or death type of struggle which can earn them XP in excess of what they would get from study and practice. Friend to Foe removes that barrier, since the affected Initiates would then wholeheartedly believe they were in a situation where they had to fight for their lives. At this point, they've moved beyond Danger Room-style training into seemingly life or death combat.
Of course, all of this would have to be used on willing Initiates, probably on those who are trying to break through the 5th/6th level barrier.
Her Illusion spells, especially Shadow Illusions, are not only very difficult to resist, but they now are all automatically Extended, which makes certain effects last long enough to be more useful for training. As a Sorcerer, she's already got plenty of spell slots to spend on this, but every time she casts a Shadow spell, there's only a 50% chance the spell slot is expended. That makes it easy for her to run several Initiates through multiple scenarios each day.
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1. Considering how easy it is to defend against Confusion, I'm not seeing the issue.
2. That's for regaining the lost level later, not to avoid the negative level in the first place.
3. *looks at Shadow of the Doom* Sorry, but I'm firmly unconvinced. The 1d4 on save is also taken straight from the Umbral Dragon, just with WIS instead of the original STR. Instead, the Umbral would do flat 12 STR drain, immediately disabling most casters. So while I agree that the ability is strong, I don't see it as gamebreaking as you seem to do.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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- Formerly of the Far Realm
1) That's not really a good defense of the ability, IMO. Resistance to Fire damage is extremely prevalent in comparison to most other damage types, and spells to resist it are quite common, but Fire spells aren't of a lower level due to that and fire-based Breath Weapons aren't considered less weighty when determining a creature's damage. If you won't budge on limiting the number affected, I would at least reduce the range to a 30ft radius centered on the Dragon.
2) Ah, I see. Never mind, then.
3) Not a good comparison, dude. This isn't a gamebreaking ability by any means, but SotD is an 8th level spell and a very powerful one at that. It's secondary effect on a saving throw is Searing Fire damage, which can be defended against to some extent. Unavoidable mental attribute damage is extremely rare in 3.5/Pathfinder for a good reason. It's not a huge deal since you fixed it from Drain to simple damage, but it's more powerful than you're making it seem, especially since lowered Wisdom synergizes with so well with some of its other Mind-Affecting abilities.
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1. My issue is that I want this mostly as a chaff cleaner as relying solely on his breathweapon seems unwise to me.
How about making the range equal to it's Frightful Presence again, but using the mechanics of Fear. Panicked for CHA mod rounds or Shaken for 1 round on save. Fluff it as cranking up the aura to max.
3. It would get it at CR 17 Wyrm though. At this range you are competing against Mindblank with your mental abilities. Again, I'm not arguing that the ability is weak, only that you are not seeing it in context of when it becomes available. I'd be very surprised if 4 WIS damage could cost a lvl 17 Cleric any of his spells.
For compromise sake, 15ft. radius burst? You never said anything about the range here and I concede that larger bursts would be too much here.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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Yeah, that's much better for both abilities.
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Updated.
@DragonParadox, your opinion on the little murder machines?
Also, the Wyrmling should be available as a Draconic Familiar at 9th level.
Edit: For later.
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I really like these. Imperial Myrkdreki will blow Shadow Dragons out of the water.Updated.
@DragonParadox, your opinion on the little murder machines?
Also, the Wyrmling should be available as a Draconic Familiar at 9th level.
Edit: For later.
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Don't forget that it proves to Tiamat that we are better at making Dragons then her. ☝
