A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

Crake said:

Counter-points;

1.1) Just the amount of information you are unleashing basically demands a response from Galzerai. There is no way he will not be on the war path after he settles matters with Kelasi. You are right later on in your vote that breaking into the matter from the outset before we have established that we can at least be in the same room together without one of us feeling slighted is essential, but we absolutely should capitalize on this the first chance an opportunity presents itself. Not necessarily out in the open and trying to include him in a potential coalition, but as part of our efforts to counter anti-draconic sentiment in Water, whilst simultaneously playing peace-maker.
1.2) Therefore we should attempt to play at 'IT'S ALL THE DEEP ONES' FAULT'. No one in Water is benefited by war with each other where trade and safer passage between realms could be possible without their deprivations and open dialogue being conducted between polities, negotiations taking place for lower tariffs and tolls, more standardized economic measures that all might benefit from trade with the Garden. Because we control the source of that trade, ultimately we can pick and choose who most benefits, of which Galzerai could potentially be one.

2.1) Yes, forcing him to do something he does not want to do when he so far seems rather isolationist is a bad idea. Getting him open to the idea of working with others to counter the Deep Ones is the goal however, from which stems greater rewards for both of us.

3) This is pretty much necessary for Item #1

4) Careful there. Let him open up on this as an extension to the overall conflict. Do not imply we are sympathetic, but do not act overly contemptuous of their plight.

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Your arguments make sense, but for now I don't think there is anything in my vote which runs contrary to them? This is going to be a multi-update meeting, so I'm just trying to get our claw in the door, so to speak.

Goldfish said:

Your arguments make sense, but for now I don't think there is anything in my vote which runs contrary to them? This is going to be a multi-update meeting, so I'm just trying to get our claw in the door, so to speak.

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Not quite saying you're up for any alterations, just sharing my own thoughts on the matter. I'm not likely to provide a vote yet, unless I disagree with the course of your next plan.

Goldfish said:

Your arguments make sense, but for now I don't think there is anything in my vote which runs contrary to them? This is going to be a multi-update meeting, so I'm just trying to get our claw in the door, so to speak.

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Although, I think including in your vote the motive for our actions in line with my thoughts is a good idea, since not only will the updates show that Viserys is thinking of ways to nudge things in that direction, but when the plan splits where Galzerai leaves an opening for us to respond to something, it is more likely to have been due to Viserys making previous adjustments as his motives, while currently opaque to Galzerai, are obvious to the reader.

More than once a social combat update has split prematurely because Viserys flounders without a direction to fall back on as soon as we are confronted with something unexpected, due to the vague nature of the plan.

I just realized that Wyrm Brine Dragons are only Huge. They don't become Gargantuan until they become Great Wyrms.

It's so bizarre that we're already rivaling Galzerai's size.

Crake said:

Although, I think including in your vote the motive for our actions in line with my thoughts is a good idea, since not only will the updates show that Viserys is thinking of ways to nudge things in that direction, but when the plan splits where Galzerai leaves an opening for us to respond to something, it is more likely to have been due to Viserys making previous adjustments as his motives, while currently opaque to Galzerai, are obvious to the reader.

More than once a social combat update has split prematurely because Viserys flounders without a direction to fall back on as soon as we are confronted with something unexpected, due to the vague nature of the plan.

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Added this to my plan. Thoughts?

-[] We are not trying to bring everyone in the Plane of Water together in friendship, or even as allies, but not all enemies are created equal. Conflict between emirates, principalities, or dominions, no matter how justified, should be of secondary concern when faced with an existential threat like the Deep Ones, beings who aren't always content to kill you, often favoring more gruesome outcomes. The example of Faerex the Brine Dragon turned Brainstealer abomination might serve us well here, if Galzerai proves reluctant to accept our reasoning. She stood alone, alienated her peers, and was too isolated for any being who could have noticed and stopped her corruption from passing the point of no return.
--[] Although we are still quite new to the politics of the Plane of Water, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. We can make the argument that, as outside observers who are only tangentially involved in local events, we have no reason to play favorites or attempt to set one power against another, not when cooperation between everyone, or at least the absence of conflict, benefits us the most. It allows trade to flow more freely and more swiftly between realms, opens new channels of communication, preserves the lives of those who could fight the Deep Ones rather than one another, and makes it all the more difficult for Deep One machinations to succeed. Islin would have had much more difficulty slipping into the halls of government and influencing those in power if there was greater communication and less mistrust between Vialesk and the Brine Dragon dominions, for example.
---[] If necessary, we can admit to Galzerai that his ongoing feud with the Kelasi Emirate is what drew our attention to him. We don't fully understand the cause of the conflict nor how it has developed, but we do understand that so long as it remains unsettled, this entire region of the Plane of Water is in greater danger. It provides another crack, a major one, through which the Deep Ones can slip in to work to weaken the realms and foster ruin, while focusing the forces of two powerful actors against one another when they could instead be prepared to fight off another invasion.

I like it.

Duesal said:

I just realized that Wyrm Brine Dragons are only Huge. They don't become Gargantuan until they become Great Wyrms.

It's so bizarre that we're already rivaling Galzerai's size.

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Given how DP fluffs age, he's actually on the upper end of Huge, whereas we're on the lower-middle-end at Adult, and will be at the upper-end like Galzerai at Mature Adult.

So for example, Viserys is now at around 20~ feet tall at huge. Galzerai is around 32 feet. When we go up an age category, we will also be around 32 feet. If we use a size increasing spell, that will place us at the upper end of Gargantuan, which is 64 feet.

Alternatively if we used Legendary proportions now, we would only be bit taller than Galzerai.

TMYK!

Goldfish said:

---[] If necessary, we can admit to Galzerai that his ongoing feud with the Kelasi Emirate is what drew our attention to him. We don't fully understand the cause of the conflict nor how it has developed, but we do understand that so long as it remains unsettled, this entire region of the Plane of Water is in greater danger. It provides another crack, a major one, through which the Deep Ones can slip in to work to weaken the realms and foster ruin, while focusing the forces of two powerful actors against one another when they could instead be prepared to fight off another invasion.

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@Goldfish, this is gonna step on some toes since it comes off as preachy. Galzerai going to take this as "You shouldn't be angry at the people you think stole your hoard's crown jewel".

If we're addressing this at all it should only be as polite curiosity of what Galzerai knows of the anvil's theft.

Duesal said:

@Goldfish, this is gonna step on some toes since it comes off as preachy. Galzerai going to take this as "You shouldn't be angry at the people you think stole your hoard's crown jewel".

If we're addressing this at all it should only be as polite curiosity of what Galzerai knows of the anvil's theft.

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This isn't intended as anything we actually say to Galzerai, at least not yet, unless maybe he questions us before we are ready to get to that level of the conversation. It's part of our background reasoning and motivation for the entire exchange, the angle from which we should be arguing, not the argument itself. Like @Crake said, it's to serve as a guideline for us if the conversation goes in a direction we weren't expecting.

All of the white-colored text is like that.

Goldfish said:

This isn't intended as anything we actually say to Galzerai, at least not yet, unless maybe he questions us before we are ready to get to that level of the conversation. It's part of our background reasoning and motivation for the entire exchange, the angle from which we should be arguing, not the argument itself. Like @Crake said, it's to serve as a guideline for us if the conversation goes in a direction we weren't expecting.

All of the white-colored text is like that.

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The thing is you have this part in particular:

Goldfish said:

---[] If necessary, we can admit to Galzerai that his ongoing feud with the Kelasi Emirate is what drew our attention to him.

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This dragon was angry enough to attack Kelasi while they were off fighting the Deep Ones. He is so pissed off he doesn't give a shit about the apocalyptic threat, he just wants his stuff back.

I don't think it's wise for us to go down the path of "For the good of the Plane of Water" in this interaction because clearly Galzerai doesn't care.

We'd have better luck focusing on mutual outrage against Deep Ones who attempted to manipulate us into becoming enemies.

Duesal said:

The thing is you have this part in particular:

This dragon was angry enough to attack Kelasi while they were off fighting the Deep Ones. He is so pissed off he doesn't give a shit about the apocalyptic threat, he just wants his stuff back.

I don't think it's wise for us to go down the path of "For the good of the Plane of Water" in this interaction because clearly Galzerai doesn't care.

We'd have better luck focusing on mutual outrage against Deep Ones who attempted to manipulate us into becoming enemies.

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How would you word it then? We need to have an answer prepared for why we even sought him out in the first place, before we learned of Islin's treachery or the Deep Ones' efforts to worsen relations between the emirates and the Dragons.

Maybe just leave it at this?

---[] If necessary, we can admit to Galzerai that his ongoing feud with the Kelasi Emirate is what drew our attention to him. We don't fully understand the cause of the conflict nor how it has developed, and hoped to learn the truth of the conflict rather than the third hand rumors spread among the uninformed.

Goldfish said:

How would you word it then? We need to have an answer prepared for why we even sought him out in the first place, before we learned of Islin's treachery or the Deep Ones' efforts to worsen relations between the emirates and the Dragons.

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Trade with one of the bigger realms in the Plane of Water is plenty explanation. Every dragon understands the desire to get filthy rich.

Goldfish said:

Maybe just leave it at this?

---[] If necessary, we can admit to Galzerai that his ongoing feud with the Kelasi Emirate is what drew our attention to him. We don't fully understand the cause of the conflict nor how it has developed, and hoped to learn the truth of the conflict rather than the third hand rumors spread among the uninformed.

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Yeah, that's much better. A polite inquiry of information on the situation, especially with the suspicion that the Deep Ones attempted to drag us into it.

[X] Goldfish

[X] Goldfish

[X] Goldfish

^
Why is there a beholder on a business suit in Viserys' head???

[X] Goldfish

OK, so I found a 3.5 book of templates, but I can't find any public copy of its templates like the SRD, and I can't link to the PDF, as SV has rules against piracy. Is there any particular way I should handle this?

JamesShazbond said:

OK, so I found a 3.5 book of templates, but I can't find any public copy of its templates like the SRD, and I can't link to the PDF, as SV has rules against piracy. Is there any particular way I should handle this?

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If you can't find a public copy, you can still share some of the information with us, I believe?

And there are always PMs! 😇

DragonParadox said:

To a Pale Nightmare Woken​

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Ironic, isn't it? If people knew Bloodraven was alive and we were working alongside him, most people would assume Viserys' chessmaster persona is partially or entirely due to Bloodraven ghostwriting his strategies.

But it turns out Bloodraven just lets us run fucking wild, fascinated as though he were watching a trainwreck or a car crash.

Crake said:

Ironic, isn't it? If people knew Bloodraven was alive and we were working alongside him, most people would assume Viserys' chessmaster persona is partially or entirely due to Bloodraven ghostwriting his strategies.

But it turns out Bloodraven just lets us run fucking wild, fascinated as though he were watching a trainwreck or a car crash.

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Sometimes I wonder how many spirits of the Green Dream are wide awake solely to just watch our shenanigans.

Duesal said:

Sometimes I wonder how many spirits of the Green Dream are wide awake solely to just watch our shenanigans.

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In the ineffable words of Lord Frieza: "Love this show."

Dunno if I would call this a challenge, but maybe more of a thought experiment. It's @TalonofAnathrax's fault for putting me in the right mindset for this.

This is a multi-part challenge.

First, you must decide if you want to be a Mind Dragon or a Mighty Mind Dragon. Each of them are spoiler'd below for ease of reference. "Mighty" is a very strong template, so why would you want to pass on it? It comes with a straight power boost, including tons of bonus HP, enhanced AC, BAB, and melee damage, spell power, poison potency, skill points, etc.

If you choose to be a regular Adult Mind Dragon, however, you also start with five additional class levels (or PRC levels if you qualify for them) and the ability to further customize yourself using a Sovereign Archetype. Basically, you'll be a CR 15 Dragon regardless of your choice.

For example, you could choose the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype and complete five levels of Dragon Mystic (or any other full caster progression), which allow raise your caster level to at least 19th level and you would be able to cast up to 8th level spells. Or you could go in a completely different direction and use the Wyrm of War Archetype to gain some extra combat feats and become a Martial Initiator. There are other Archetypes which would give you other abilities, including access to Cleric spells, though you wouldn't be able to start with the ability to cast any spells higher than 7th level.

Either way you choose, nothing stops you from advancing further after you start, except for the difficulty involved in a CR 15 creature gathering enough XP to level.


Second, you have to choose when and where you start.

Option 1) You wake up in the Flesh Forge among the latest batch of Mind Dragons grown by the Imperium. You are either a standard Mighty Mind Dragon or a customized Mind Dragon which developed far outside the expectations of the Fleshcrafters. Dragon Dreams are funny like that! The advantages of this choice should be obvious; You aren't alone, but are instead surrounded by friends and allies, the Imperium spares no expense to equip you in enchanted equipment worth a king's ransom, and should you fall in battle, only the most catastrophic turn of events will prevent your Resurrection from being a priority. Disadvantages of this option include A) Your meta-knowledge is of very little use, B) You've got a boss (a pretty good boss by any standards, but still...), and the Imperium has a lot of enemies.

Option 2) You wake up in the Flesh Forge as it explodes in a fiery conflagration which completely destroys the structure and much of the ruins of Goggossos, though you are unscathed except for a few scrapes and bruises. It is the 12th Day of the Ninth Month, 289 AC, the day the quest starts and ASWAH diverges from ASOIAF canon. You should have been decanted from your pod as in Option 1, but something went very wrong and Tiamat was able to strike against the Imperium's affront to Dragonkind (i.e. Tiamat). Among the advantages of this start, you have years of priceless meta-knowledge, you're a CR 15 Dragon(!), and for a long time to come you will be among the Powers (with a capital P) with very little that can stand in the way of your plans. Unfortunately, you can't have the good without the bad. The Flesh Forge, a priceless relic of a bygone era, has been destroyed. In the not so distant future it could have been critical to the survival of humanity upon Planetos. You're alone, short on funds, and you have no enchanted gear. Worst of all, however, is that you have Tiamat's attention. She doesn't know what happened (no knowledge from her future self made the trip back with you), but she got a whiff of her own power and turned her attention to the exploding Flesh Forge quickly enough to get a metaphysical eye full of you. A new species of Dragon that she wasn't aware of, who doesn't worship her, and who somehow came into being in an explosion caused, at least in part, by her power. You better keep your Mind Blank SLA running 24/7 and it would be advised to take advantage of shape-shifting magic as often as possible.

Option 3) Sorta like Option 2, but Tiamat exploded the Flesh Forge extra hard. She didn't knock you into the past, but into an alternate reality entirely. You wake up to an exploding Flesh Forge in 298 AC, on the day Jon Arryn dies by poison. It's ASOIAF canon...except magic has just awakened and the Plane of Balance is once again open for business. All of the threats from ASWAH, not to mention those one is exposed to by simply existing in the D&D 3.5/Pathfinder cosmology, are now on the table, with just one exception. There is no Void and the Celestial Planes were never sundered. The Others are still a threat, of course, but they're no longer linked to the non-existent Void. Your meta-knowledge is still good up to a certain point, but that will rapidly change, so you will have to be quick if you want to exploit it to any significant degree. There might not be a Void nibbling at the edges of reality, but shit is still pretty screwed up and will only get worse as magic returns, and this time there is no Viserys around to save everyone. The Viserys in this timeline is, of course, a delusional cunt and completely useless.

So, what would you do?

To add to the above, has anyone else noticed how most of the time before the last few months, most of the time when we poked Brynden, it was basically a long version of "Look Uncle, look what I did!" *preen*

Only "what we did" was basically fucking baffling and each more audacious than the last, to the point where Brynden was genuinely stumped, stupefied and basically saying something like "I don't even know why I try to be surprised anymore so I'm just going to stop. That's it. I'm convinced you can do basically anything you set your mind to and I've made peace with it finally."

Like look very closely. Since after the whole Rina episode, the one thing that genuinely caught him by surprise isn't anything we did, but the mounting, sheer reality defying stupidity of our enemies sabotaging themselves by committing adultery AND incest simultaneously, whilst cuckolding our other enemy and making a goddamn fool out of another one (since they hope to place one of the kids on the Throne).

You can't make this shit up.

JamesShazbond said:

OK, so I found a 3.5 book of templates, but I can't find any public copy of its templates like the SRD, and I can't link to the PDF, as SV has rules against piracy. Is there any particular way I should handle this?

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Can you send that my way also? Via PMs that is.

Crake said:

To add to the above, has anyone else noticed how most of the time before the last few months, most of the time when we poked Brynden, it was basically a long version of "Look Uncle, look what I did!" *preen*

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Uncle Bloodraven is the best father figure to go brag to.

[X] Goldfish