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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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[X] Her oldest active art, which had seen her through so many trials Forgotten Vale Melody

have we seen anyone not a Disciple use a Domain Weapon yet? I dont think we have yet.
 
On the topic of the "sacrifice"/"permanence" being unclear in the update, I think it's clear enough if one reads carefully:
it is an exercise in spiritual surgery, transferring an art and the meridians it occupies to new housing. It is permanent, and so it is wise to think hard on what is being sacrificed.
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From this context the sacrifice is of meridians, the warning is more in context of "this is gonna be permanent spirit surgery so choose well". The reason for it is as mental preparation for future sacrifices required by higher cultivation as per:
A cultivator is not merely their body, and a cultivator's body is not merely flesh. Even if you can speak the words, you do not understand them without experience.
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Further clarified here that the process seems to make the domain weapon a pseudo phylactery thing, so the thing that'll be permanently with us is the art and presumably core insight:
What you place in your domain weapon is something which will remain with you always."
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Next bit that may be unclear, Cai's choice of the desire for purity:
"My desire for purity. You know well my attitude toward disorder and uncleanliness."

Ling Qi glanced away. "...I said I was sorry for putting the tea leaves back wrong," she mumbled. Rarely had she scene her liege more blatantly incensed as she had been this morning. "...that doesn't sound like something you would want to be rid of though."

"It is not," Cai Renxiang agreed quietly. "For as long as I can remember, I took pleasure in ordering my surroundings, even more so after my awakening. Yet… the world is untidy. It can be improved, but ones plans will never be executed to perfection. This is not because the world cannot be predicted or ordered, but because you have failed to account for all factors. It is important to be able to accept some degree of disorder and uncleanliness in action, but it is more important to not forget the goal I am seeking past that tolerance."

Ling Qi nodded slowly.
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This isn't LQ being surprised that CRX is sacrificing purity, this is CRX explaining she put purity in the weapon, knows it'll cause her problems because the world is unclean, LQ voices the thought and CRX confirms that despite the potential problems it's not a part of herself she'd ever wish to be rid of (presumably in context of some future sacrifice), so making it permanent is no issue.

Besides making the above a bit clearer I don't think much rewriting is necessary. If I'm not completely off-base anyway; @yrsillar the above read close to what's intended?
 
The lore on domain weapons seems to be on one extreme you have one (or none, even), and on the other you have an arbitrary number of them.

I see the appeal of having thousands of flying blades, but a part of me isn't sure how it jives with our new understanding of their function. Is it the cultivator equivalent of becoming a cyborg? Is it looked down upon? Is it less successful overall? Are Way Breaks more common due to the inflexible nature of domain weapons? I'm very curious now about them because it seems that with how they self-repair, they are less vulnerable to crippling than the OG bod so there would be an... incentive to become a mobile horde of domain weapons.
 
FixerUpper said:
The lore on domain weapons seems to be on one extreme you have one (or none, even), and on the other you have an arbitrary number of them.

I see the appeal of having thousands of flying blades, but a part of me isn't sure how it jives with our new understanding of their function. Is it the cultivator equivalent of becoming a cyborg? Is it looked down upon? Is it less successful overall? Are Way Breaks more common due to the inflexible nature of domain weapons? I'm very curious now about them because it seems that with how they self-repair, they are less vulnerable to crippling than the OG bod so there would be an... incentive to become a mobile horde of domain weapons.
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I think the idea is that you're actually moving the art into your domain, its just that at this stage the cultivator can't reliably distinguish their domain, so the domain weapon serves as a tangible focus for their domain's attention.

Its like...you have an art permanently fused to your Arm meridians. When you replace your weapon its not affected, the weapon is merely how you express your Arm.
 
Ayashi said:
One thing i don't like about the whole integration idea is that it basically implies we'll keep our domain weapon permanently.
I mean, sure it's a nice one right now as it's theoretically as powerful a weapon as a Green Cultivator can use, even if a bit clunky and often effectively useless, but most importantly it's not a self-improving artifact, so i very much doubt it'll stay relevant once we go up a realm or two...

As such i'll vote to throw the less relevant Art at it. The Art we're going to replace soon anyway:

[x] The sometimes clashing art but often decisive art, Thousand Ring Fortress
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Like, vote whatever you want, but you really going to argue for your vote by claiming that the vote is actually completely opposite of what was stated?
 
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Ayashi said:
One thing i don't like about the whole integration idea is that it basically implies we'll keep our domain weapon permanently.
I mean, sure it's a nice one right now as it's theoretically as powerful a weapon as a Green Cultivator can use, even if a bit clunky and often effectively useless, but most importantly it's not a self-improving artifact, so i very much doubt it'll stay relevant once we go up a realm or two...

As such i'll vote to throw the less relevant Art at it. The Art we're going to replace soon anyway:

[x] The sometimes clashing art but often decisive art, Thousand Ring Fortress
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So basically you just ignored the whole part where voting on what we integrate and make an unchangeable part of our Domain is more important than mechanical weapon stuff.
 
Does the Art we integrate still take up the meridians it does now, in addition to three more meridians, or is it reduced to only taking up three meridians? Like, would integrating FVM, which takes up five meridians, open up two meridians, or would it now take up eight?
 
Erebeal said:
Alright, well to start, I'll just bring back my old suggestions about FVM's potential here:

I've been thinking that potentially sticking FVM into our Domain Weapon would actually be very helpful with everything we want to do with fields, and allowing PLR more room to shine. The basic problem with, for example, PLR is that it really wants to be used the same way as FVM - as the field that we use as the background element to the rest of our strategy. In theory, yes, they actually stack well. In practice, if we try to layer everything we start running out of actions, and getting to the "just attack them already dammit" point.

Off-loading FVM responsibility to our domain weapon would mean that we could just have that spewing out as our background element, and then we personally start building up PLR/BKSD. This allows us rapid buildup of either defensive or offensive field effects when we need them, and by allowing us to focus on our new arts helps them get more focus and presence, rather than being pushed to the side by FVM.

That being said, FSS is obviously really strong here, and works great if we just want a really effective offensive weapon. Otoh, in some ways I'm less a fan of that? The domain weapon has always been a bit awkward in terms of integration into the narrative, and continuing to try to fight actively with it might just continue that. FVM could work well there in terms of allowing it to do stuff visibly, but be in the background at the same time and not be to tricky in terms of how it engages with things.

TRF.... just strikes me as the worst. It would basically be a buff turret throwing out invisible buffs. Most boring thing ever.
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Finally! Had some thoughts about FVM, but couldn't track down this post for the life of me.

In terms of in-universe effect layering, you're absolutely right that handing FVM off to our Domain Weapon makes it a lot easier for Ling Qi to field it up. When it comes to sitting down and writing out a narrative for a combat scene, I'm less sure. Enshrining FVM as the ur-field doesn't clearly help the narrative presence of other fields. Historically, it has had that role, and the conflict between it and others hasn't been purely mechanical because we've seen a lack of overlap even in situations where combining them would have been mechanically optimal. The obvious explanation for this is limited narrative energy or the combination of isolating sapping mists and riotous parties being jarring or otherwise ill-fitting for the scene at hand. It's difficult to imagine committing ourselves to always using FVM giving PLR more room to shine.

While I don't actually support it because of the character impact of this decision and the complete mess the narrative surrounding it still is, TRF actually seems like it would provide the most distinct narrative presence in the weapon while not stepping on the toes of our other efforts. One issue with our Domain Weapon has been its inability to contribute in fights against other narratively relevant Domain Weapons. A TRF Domain Weapon is a real barrier to an enemy's. The TRF Domain Weapon interdicts and shields allies, giving us more flexibility to engage with a scene instead of fearfully clutching our allies to our breast.

Again, I don't support TRF because the groundwork just isn't there to justify or make sense of this choice. ...but since I don't really see another reliable way to push forward on these issues, I think I just convinced myself anyway. Let Ling Qi bond her Domain with the eternal vitality of the primal forests.
[X] The sometimes clashing art but often decisive art, Thousand Ring Fortress

(Bonus points that our Domain Weapon is based on Dex + Woodwind. Something Dex(or Wits or even Manip) based has been the solution to the TRF "problem" since it got brought up at the end of the first quest, which never manifested for whatever reason. And TRF has obvious synergy with Woodwind.)
 
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AbeoLogos said:
Finally! Had some thoughts about FVM, but couldn't track down this post for the life of me.

In terms of in-universe effect layering, you're absolutely right that handing FVM off to our Domain Weapon makes it a lot easier for Ling Qi to field it up. When it comes to sitting down and writing out a narrative for a combat scene, I'm less sure. Enshrining FVM as the ur-field doesn't clearly help the narrative presence of other fields. Historically, it has had that role, and the conflict between it and others hasn't been purely mechanical because we've seen a lack of overlap even in situations where combining them would have been mechanically optimal. The obvious explanation for this is limited narrative energy or the combination of isolating sapping mists and riotous parties being jarring or otherwise ill-fitting for the scene at hand. It's difficult to imagine committing ourselves to always using FVM giving PLR more room to shine.

While I don't actually support it because of the character impact of this decision and the complete mess the narrative surrounding it still is, TRF actually seems like it would provide the most distinct narrative presence in the weapon while not stepping on the toes of our other efforts. One issue with our Domain Weapon has been its inability to contribute in fights against other narratively relevant Domain Weapons. A TRF Domain Weapon is a real barrier to an enemy's. The TRF Domain Weapon interdicts and shields allies, giving us more flexibility to engage with a scene instead of fearfully clutching our allies to our breast.

Again, I don't support TRF because the groundwork just isn't there to justify or make sense of this choice. ...but since I don't really see another reliable way to push forward on these issues, I think I just convinced myself anyway. Let Ling Qi bond her Domain with the eternal vitality of the primal forests.
[] The sometimes clashing art but often decisive art, Thousand Ring Fortress

(Bonus points that our Domain Weapon is based on Dex + Woodwind. Something Dex(or Wits or even Manip) based has been the solution to the TRF "problem" since it got brought up at the end of the first quest, which never manifested for whatever reason. And TRF has obvious synergy with Woodwind.)
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I don't buy it at all.

Not only have we seen the opposite of what you are saying- Yrsillar has successfully shown that he would narratively weave multiple field effects together in battle scenes- but with both PLR rework and BKSD rework, FVM has a very different narrative space than them nowadays, when at first it didn't.

TRF been reworked to not be a barrier, it won't interdict or shield our ally unless it is greatly changed from how it works thematically. We also have an actual art that has better theme work with Ling Qi that does the same thing TRF does (assuming that putting TRF in our domain weapon will suddenly make it work for spiritual too). As such, TRF will constantly be in conflict with a new art we are learning, and our choice would be to either not learn SNR or be aware it will constantly lose narrative space to TRF, as well as that both can't be used together well without clashing into 'they are in the same design space', something that no longer applies to our other arts.

If we are looking at 'narrative presence in our weapon that won't step in any toes', and you don't trust the constant rework Yrsillar has put the last couple turns to differentiate FVM from PLR and BKSD, then I would suggest HDW. It would have a much stronger narrative presence than TRF, being that it could help for scouting and its 'awareness' would be a nifty way for it to deliver its armour/health bonuses to our allies in need.
 
Hoping that we can turn FVM into an ice/blizzard art like our mentor. Would make it more palatable if it will eventually transfer from our weapon to our domain as a whole.

Wish we knew Coldstar Blade, if the insight was good would have been awesome to put into a blade. Also could have lead to the hearth theme some want.
 
Arkeus said:
I don't buy it at all.

Not only have we seen the opposite of what you are saying- Yrsillar has successfully shown that he would narratively weave multiple field effects together in battle scenes- but with both PLR rework and BKSD rework, FVM has a very different narrative space than them nowadays, when at first it didn't.

TRF been reworked to not be a barrier, it won't interdict or shield our ally unless it is greatly changed from how it works thematically. We also have an actual art that has better theme work with Ling Qi that does the same thing TRF does (assuming that putting TRF in our domain weapon will suddenly make it work for spiritual too). As such, TRF will constantly be in conflict with a new art we are learning, and our choice would be to either not learn SNR or be aware it will constantly lose narrative space to TRF, as well as that both can't be used together well without clashing into 'they are in the same design space', something that no longer applies to our other arts.

If we are looking at 'narrative presence in our weapon that won't step in any toes', and you don't trust the constant rework Yrsillar has put the last couple turns to differentiate FVM from PLR and BKSD, then I would suggest HDW. It would have a much stronger narrative presence than TRF, being that it could help for scouting and its 'awareness' would be a nifty way for it to deliver its armour/health bonuses to our allies in need.
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Every part of this is wrong. Each field being super unique and distinct does not actually help weave them together coherently. The mechanical distinctiveness of those arts in terms of their interaction with perception isn't and never was the core of their thematic dissonance. The sole time I can recall FVM and PLR being used in the same scene the characterization of their combined effects was pretty dissatisfying and arbitrary- PLR purely got thematically thrown under the bus. You're fundamentally misunderstanding my concerns and misapplying my terms.

SNR and TRF would work together fine, and I don't think your conception of how TRF would function in the context of being attached to a domain weapon is sound. Look at Thousand Rings; it absolutely lends itself to the weapon being a warding, implacable presence within the context of a fight. It's a combination of how domain weapons are thrown around and the art's effects. SNR, meanwhile, focuses on the user's more direct proximity. They would be twinned effects used in conjunction with each other to support a more varied and flexible combat stance, not a single interchangeable pair with their feet crammed into a single shoe.

If we wanted an actual cool art for the weapon, I wouldn't go with HDW. I'd pick AE. Qi-devouring and domain-linked summons we don't have to spend time summoning would smooth out a lot of our issues. Especially since the translation to our Domain would automagically solve the aesthetics issues of the summons.
 
AbeoLogos said:
In terms of in-universe effect layering, you're absolutely right that handing FVM off to our Domain Weapon makes it a lot easier for Ling Qi to field it up. When it comes to sitting down and writing out a narrative for a combat scene, I'm less sure. Enshrining FVM as the ur-field doesn't clearly help the narrative presence of other fields. Historically, it has had that role, and the conflict between it and others hasn't been purely mechanical because we've seen a lack of overlap even in situations where combining them would have been mechanically optimal. The obvious explanation for this is limited narrative energy or the combination of isolating sapping mists and riotous parties being jarring or otherwise ill-fitting for the scene at hand. It's difficult to imagine committing ourselves to always using FVM giving PLR more room to shine.
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Mmm, you raise interesting points there. I guess I'd kinda look at it from another angle here? I think that what matters in terms of focus is what LQ does. In that light, sticking FVM in our domain weapon doesn't set it as the ur-field - it sets it as a background element in fights.

The real question there, in my eyes, is whether or not it would actually then have a meaningful presence beyond "wheee, mist!". Dissonance, as you say, has the problem of being redundent with BKSD, and Elegy has the problem of not being the most visible - which is both good and bad. Good in that this allows it to fall back to the background more easily, bad in that this can allow it to fall out of visibility altogether.
 
Erebeal said:
Mmm, you raise interesting points there. I guess I'd kinda look at it from another angle here? I think that what matters in terms of focus is what LQ does. In that light, sticking FVM in our domain weapon doesn't set it as the ur-field - it sets it as a background element in fights.

The real question there, in my eyes, is whether or not it would actually then have a meaningful presence beyond "wheee, mist!". Dissonance, as you say, has the problem of being redundent with BKSD, and Elegy has the problem of not being the most visible - which is both good and bad. Good in that this allows it to fall back to the background more easily, bad in that this can allow it to fall out of visibility altogether.
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For what it's worth, if we can focus on elegy enough to make despair of the lost fully aoe, it should make it very prominent in any vs group fight like we've had so far since it cuts directly into a key component of mutual-support as a way to even the scales against a stronger combatant.
 
AbeoLogos said:
Every part of this is wrong. Each field being super unique and distinct does not actually help weave them together coherently. The mechanical distinctiveness of those arts in terms of their interaction with perception isn't and never was the core of their thematic dissonance. The sole time I can recall FVM and PLR being used in the same scene the characterization of their combined effects was pretty dissatisfying and arbitrary- PLR purely got thematically thrown under the bus. You're fundamentally misunderstanding my concerns and misapplying my terms.

SNR and TRF would work together fine, and I don't think your conception of how TRF would function in the context of being attached to a domain weapon is sound. Look at Thousand Rings; it absolutely lends itself to the weapon being a warding, implacable presence within the context of a fight. It's a combination of how domain weapons are thrown around and the art's effects. SNR, meanwhile, focuses on the user's more direct proximity. They would be twinned effects used in conjunction with each other to support a more varied and flexible combat stance, not a single interchangeable pair with their feet crammed into a single shoe.

If we wanted an actual cool art for the weapon, I wouldn't go with HDW. I'd pick AE. Qi-devouring and domain-linked summons we don't have to spend time summoning would smooth out a lot of our issues. Especially since the translation to our Domain would automagically solve the aesthetics issues of the summons.
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that's why I think FVM might lose everything but the Fog. Makes it easy to integrate any given art mechanically with it, and intensify the effects of the Fog. If we keep the Fog and the Attacks, I would think we can swing that.

I think the problem of integrating FVM itself into other arts is that it's very specific, but if we generalize it to recreating the feeling and fear of being lost in an unfamiliar setting with dream non-constructs lurking we can integrate that fairly easily aesthetically with a variety of songs and arts.

PLR plus personalized FVM would be what I described in my most liked post, the social anxiety: lethal edition. The party is reveling, the participants are happy, and nobody but you seems to notice or care about the knives in the dark or the fog that obscures everything. The terrible realization comes, though, when they JOYOUSLY TOAST the killer that plunges pure cold End into your core.

BKSD FVM PLR could be a generally grim and doomed march full of stress and touchy tempers, fists and blades fly as they march. Meanwhile the rowdy bards try to keep morale up by dashing around, bringing revel and fun wherever they go (seemingly). But they're just as ready to throw hands as the rest, and there's a goddam Eagle swooping in every so often trying to keep troops in line? UGM brings some sort of Glacial Presence herding the whole march forward unto doom. It's a whole ass mess for our enemies
 
Did a quick reread, here are the changes I found:
yrsillar said:
Cai Renxiang let out a dissatisfied hum, but did not admonish her. Ling Qi took it as a tentatively good sign. Since that day at Zhengui's hill, her liege had… not relaxed per say, but had been a little more permissive in private. "At the most base mechanical level, it is an exercise in spiritual surgery, transferring an art and the meridians it occupies to new housing. It is permanent, the first of many such steps we will take on the road to the peak of cultivation. While this one is a small sacrifice, a matter of utility rather than true loss, it is wise to consider the implications well."

Ling Qi looked worriedly at the blade. Thoughts of the sacrifices necessary for higher cultivation were troubling, but she was well beyond the point of stopping. "And what is the point of that?"

"It trains the mind for the stages which come after," Cai Renxiang replied calmly, letting her eyes drift shut again. "A cultivator is not merely their body, and a cultivator's body is not merely flesh. Even if you can speak the words, you do not understand them without experience. These exercises replace much trial and error which our ancestors needed perform to ascend the realms."

Ling Qi understood. "You called that explanation base and mechanical. Is there something more to it?" She asked, and she felt Sixiang chuckle.

Cai Renxiang was silent for a time, but eventually she answered. "It is not possible to excise and transfer a piece of ones spirit to a new bodily vessel without affecting the self. You know that climbing the realms of cultivation requires sacrifices, things cast aside. What you place in your domain weapon is something which will remain with you always."
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yrsillar said:
Ling Qi glanced away. "...I said I was sorry for putting the tea leaves back wrong," she mumbled. Rarely had she seen her liege more blatantly incensed as she had been this morning. "...that doesn't sound like something you would want to be rid of though."

"It is not, nor is that the purpose of the exercise," Cai Renxiang agreed quietly. "For as long as I can remember, I took pleasure in ordering my surroundings, even more so after my awakening. Yet… the world is untidy. It can be improved, but ones plans will never be executed to perfection. This is not because the world cannot be predicted or ordered, but because you have failed to account for all factors. It is important to be able to accept some degree of disorder and uncleanliness in action, but it is more important to not forget the goal I am seeking past that tolerance."

Ling Qi nodded slowly. "It's what drives you. By enshrining it in your domain, you make sure you never lose touch with it."

"Precisely," Cai Renxiang agreed.
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yrsillar said:
Still, she had questions yet. "How does that work with people who have multiple domain weapons or change them later then?"

"The weapon remains simply physical housing, though the process is longer and more difficult, it remains possible to transfer the meridians to a new device. Multiple weapons are a matter of style and arts, it is unusual to have more than one integrated weapon. It would be counter intuitive given that it is a practice exercise for the functions of higher cultivation. Perhaps it might be useful if one were certain that they were not going to reach the fourth realm?" Cai Renxiang said musingly, brushing her fingers across her ribbon.
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Thanks yrs! Definitely makes it clearer.
 
Erebeal said:
Mmm, you raise interesting points there. I guess I'd kinda look at it from another angle here? I think that what matters in terms of focus is what LQ does. In that light, sticking FVM in our domain weapon doesn't set it as the ur-field - it sets it as a background element in fights.

The real question there, in my eyes, is whether or not it would actually then have a meaningful presence beyond "wheee, mist!". Dissonance, as you say, has the problem of being redundent with BKSD, and Elegy has the problem of not being the most visible - which is both good and bad. Good in that this allows it to fall back to the background more easily, bad in that this can allow it to fall out of visibility altogether.
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I'd argue that it actually means that every fight would have the 'FVM domain', because of how omnipresent it would be. You might argue that dissonances would have narrative space conflict with BKSD, but if we take FVM in domain weapon creating a 'base' that every other arts develops on (because FVM would be the constant, no matter what we do), dissonances would be like the tiny wraiths opening up the opponents for the bigger BKSD attacks, and that works fine.

Elegy and Diapason should be the big ones, though. I kind of want Diapason to be the biggest now that PLR is no longer about perception filters, but there is probably an argument I am missing about Elegy.

So yeah, it would totally have a meaningful presence.
 
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