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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Duesal said:
Oooh, very nice.

Granted, we can still only "recycle" up to CR 6 at the moment, but still nice.
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All we need for a "free" army of CR 15 monsters is a body of CR 45 creature, then!
:V

Ah, it's just too bad that things beyond cr20 barely fit into forge.
Like how Mammon's body promised to break our forge through sheer excess of power.
 
egoo said:
All we need for a "free" army of CR 15 monsters is a body of CR 45 creature, then!
:V

Ah, it's just too bad that things beyond cr20 barely fit into forge.
Like how Mammon's body promised to break our forge through sheer excess of power.
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Both Forges will of course need to be upgraded.

1. Increased CR
2. Increased recycling capabilities
3. More Templates available
egoo said:
Ooh, good point, we need to divine those Marids and guess from there.

I'd hate to find Lannisters with support of a house or several, and they might just be...
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I'd be thrilled. It'll make it easier to decide which houses we get the support of, and if we're lucky we get more genie enemies we can find an excuse to raid. Nothing makes a better statement like your rivals being robbed of everything they own. It'll give everyone else pause with the same thought of "I'm definitely not fighting that Red Dragon."
 
Crake said:
The Lannisters couldn't negotiate themselves out of a wet paper bag.
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They have Lana and she is bullshit.

They also have lots of gold, and as we have seen ourselves, the market here is quite receptive to it still, cur off as it is from PoE/PoB - I'll bet they had all the time in the world to trade their bling around.

Tldr: better to check for this, in case they did.
If nothing else, we'll get local contacts from those marids.
 
Crake said:
The Lannisters couldn't negotiate themselves out of a wet paper bag.
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egoo said:
They have Lana and she is bullshit.

They also have lots of gold, and as we have seen ourselves, the market here is quite receptive to it still, cur off as it is from PoE/PoB - I'll bet they had all the time in the world to trade their bling around.

Tldr: better to check for this, in case they did.
If nothing else, we'll get local contacts from those marids.
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Lanna isn't that great, @egoo.

Let's compare her to us for a second.

Lanna:
Is a Sha'ir wandcrafter whose level rivals our Companions
  1. Has access to all wizard spells and thus can make basically any wand
  2. Has a hell of a time recharging those spells after any battle, literally takes her days, but by the same token she can fall back on wands
  3. Has the Spell-Reflecting crown taken from that one Westerling girl who Robb foolishly marries in canon.
Is semi-decent at intrigue given that she keeps poking around in the Imperium
Has had the Lannister wealth to back her since day one
Raided the outskirts of Valyria with Gerion
Is the Lady of Castamere
Is the head of the Golden Shields
Arranged for Marid mercenaries to side with the Lannisters

Viserys:
Is a Mythic Red Dragon Sorcerer King
  1. Has access to every sorcerer/wizard and cleric spell through Wild Arcana
  2. Has Blood Wish and Miracle
  3. Is a Dragon with all that entails
  4. Has @Goldfish gear, courtesy of Lya and our treasury
Has the Companions to cover any areas he can't (Garin for the Inquisition, Malarys for Laws, Lya for magical study, etc) and far more PCs than Lanna could ever hope to bring to the table
Has recruited dozens of powerful outsiders and three True Dragons (and one formerly True Dragon)
Is Lord of the Imperium with full control over the western coast of Essos
Is the official ally of the Shaitan and the Djinn
  1. This happened through us rescuing Embra, and then subsequently skinning Mammon's Aspect for a cloak and then marauding in the Plane of Fire against the Efreeti to prove our strength and commitment to the war
  2. And even then, they needed a powerful common enemy to consider allying with a mortal no matter how powerful

The list could go on forever, but you get the idea.

Tldr at best Lanna has bought the services of a few mercenaries (exceedingly few given that we faced, what, six when they attacked Sorcerer's Deep that first time). I genuinely doubt she had the political weight to become a full ally to any of the more important houses.

If she somehow did get the allegiance of a house, fine. We already know from DP that the Marid are famously disunited, so it's not exactly hard for us to go straight to that house's enemies and recruit them instead.

At this stage Lanna isn't exactly a challenge when compared to the other things we've faced. Tricky, sure. I expect nothing less from DP. But we'd definitely win.
 
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Duesal said:
and if we're lucky we get more genie enemies we can find an excuse to raid. Nothing makes a better statement like your rivals being robbed of everything they own.
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Fighting it out with an entire city-state isn't really in the cards now, though -
And worst case scenario is exactly that.

Would kinda put us at an impasse there.

I hope they are just in contact with mercanaries, and that we can apply some strategic purging to solve that.

Duesal said:
Lanna isn't that great, @egoo.

Let's compare her to us for a second.

Lanna:
Is a Sha'ir wandcrafter whose level rivals our Companions
  1. Has access to all wizard spells and thus can make basically any wand
  2. Has a hell of a time recharging those spells after any battle, literally takes her days, but by the same token she can fall back on wands
  3. Has the Spell-Reflecting crown taken from that one Westerling girl who Robb foolishly marries in canon.
Is semi-decent at intrigue given that she keeps poking around in the Imperium
Has had the Lannister wealth to back her since day one
Raided the outskirts of Valyria with Gerion
Is the Lady of Castamere
Is the head of the Golden Shields
Arranged for Marid mercenaries to side with the Lannisters

Viserys:
Is a Mythic Red Dragon Sorcerer King
  1. Has access to every sorcerer/wizard and cleric spell through Wild Arcana
  2. Has Blood Wish and Miracle
  3. Is a Dragon with all that entails
  4. Has @Goldfish gear, courtesy of Lya and our treasury
Has the Companions to cover any areas he can't (Garin for the Inquisition, Malarys for Laws, Lya for magical study, etc) and far more PCs than Lanna could ever hope to bring to the table
Has recruited dozens of powerful outsiders and three True Dragons (and one formerly True Dragon)
Is Lord of the Imperium with full control over the western coast of Essos
Is the official ally of the Shaitan and the Djinn
  1. This happened through us rescuing Embra, and then subsequently skinning Mammon's Aspect for a cloak and then marauding in the Plane of Fire against the Efreeti to prove our strength and commitment to the war
  2. And even then, they needed a powerful common enemy to consider allying with a mortal no matter how powerful

The list could go on forever, but you get the idea.

Tldr at best Lanna has bought the services of a few mercenaries (exceedingly few given that we faced, what, six when they attacked Sorcerer's Deep that first time). I genuinely doubt she had the political weight to become a full ally to any of the more important houses.

If she somehow did get the allegiance of a house, fine. We already know from DP that the Marid are famously disunited, so it's not exactly hard for us to go straight to that house's enemies and recruit them instead.
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Ah, and here you go ninjaing me.

I do tend to overestimate out enemies.
I keep to opinion that that's a good habit, though.

We are utterly unaware of their mages' numbers, any intrigues they are running, their net wealth/spending, and whatever efforts they are pushing against our Reconquest.

Better judge everything from the worst possible angle until we do, imo.
 
egoo said:
Fighting it out with an entire city-state isn't really in the cards now, though -
And worst case scenario is exactly that.

Would kinda put us at an impasse there.

I hope they are just in contact with mercanaries, and that we can apply some strategic purging to solve that.


Ah, and here you go ninjaing me.

I do tend to overestimate out enemies.
I keep to opinion that that's a good habit, though.

We are utterly unaware of their mages' numbers, any intrigues they are running, and whatever efforts they are pushing against our Reconquest.

Better judge everything from the worst possible angle until we do, imo.
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Even in our most generous estimation of the Lannisters, they'll only be a legitimate danger if we're lucky enough for Tywin to snap and start summoning hellish legions. Of course, that's my best-case scenario. I hope to god this happens. We would win PR forever.
 
Duesal said:
We would win PR forever.
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And lose just as much efficiency-wise.

I'm hands-down for airing all the bad shit we have on him, and killing him off without any fuss at the start of Reconquest.
Or hell, even before it.

Less resistance = less time spent = less chances to be trickstabbed by plethora of enemies, and more time to deal with CoS, Seven, infiltrators of other factions and assorted eldritch forces in Westeros.

Same goes for Bobby.
Can't give less of a fuck about Stark, with Bob Varysxploded all over the room with Wildfire and Adamantine shrapnel, we'll have easier time dealing with his disjointed bannermen.

Like hell we are going to go "fair combat" on the fuck.
Or give him time to be approached by any asshole and empowered against us.
Etc.
 
IMHO hellish invasion is as much a boon as it is an obstacle to a clean sweep, since it allows us to roll even harder on reforms citing necessity. And we would face much less opposition in the face of that evidence.
 
egoo said:
And lose just as much efficiency-wise.

I'm hands-down for airing all the bad shit we have on him, and killing him off without any fuss at the start of Reconquest.
Or hell, even before it.

Less resistance = less time spent = less chances to be trickstabbed by plethora of enemies, and more time to deal with CoS, Seven, infiltrators of other factions and assorted eldritch forces in Westeros.

Same goes for Bobby.
Can't give less of a fuck about Stark, with Bob Varysxploded all over the room with Wildfire and Adamantine shrapnel, we'll have easier time dealing with his disjointed bannermen.

Like hell we are going to go "fair combat" on the fuck.
Or give him time to be approached by any asshole and empowered against us.
Etc.
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Of course we're going to lose efficiency-wise. It's war, and the enemy isn't going to cooperate. Tywin is going to be making the conquest messy for us anyway. I'm just hoping he's insane enough to do it in a way that can potentially be turned back against him. You hoping for a clean conquest is... unlikely to happen.
Crake said:
IMHO hellish invasion is as much a boon as it is an obstacle to a clean sweep, since it allows us to roll even harder on reforms citing necessity. And we would face much less opposition in the face of that evidence.
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Basically this. Ironically a hellish invasion on behalf of the Lannisters is one of the cleanest outcomes for us.
 
I can just tell you outright right now. We aren't getting that clean sweep. Too many vectors for outside interference. Even if we completely wrecked the ability for Tiamat and the Deep Ones and even Big Red and the Gold Noodle to respond by hitting them and hitting them hard in the next several months leading up to Go Time, Tywin will be rolling on scorched earth tactics. If he can't have it, nobody can, and a lot of the salt from that is going to be from putting out yet more fires that our enemies ignored or lit themselves.

There's two outcomes here: Tywin is intelligently spiteful, and his family along with him, and the Lannisters in a astonishing act of coordination and foresight manage to maneuver us into painting ourselves in the worst light by how they've arranged the political landscape, which thus far they seem to have failed at or have been underwhelming in performance thereby. Lanna is a woman and a witch. She's not going to be putting her best foot forward from the outset with most Houses. So she can't politic, unlike Tywin or even Gerion.

Unfortunately Tywin has shot himself in the foot repeatedly just about everywhere including his own Kingdom by mindraping his own vassals when they expressed unrest and doubt--which he honestly could have handled diplomatically or even just classic blackmail way better.

@bigbow described Tywin's canon an probably current mindset really, really well, his thought process has calcified on bitterness, pride and ego into making moves he couldn't reasonably expect to get away with indefinitely and would bite him in the ass later on, and he only got away with it in canon due to a series of blunders, luck and competence on the part his family who he disregarded, a display we see repeated by Gerion and Lanna.

The second outcome is the more likely one: Tywin goes all-in on "I will win at any cost, no matter the price". This is where we win the most, but everyone else loses proportionally more. It would be unfortunate if many of our supporters died, but we aren't completely incapable of protecting them either--nor would it always be beyond recall. But if those who definitely would have opposed us also lose their lives fighting Tywin rather than us? It makes pressing harder on centralization of authority even easier. Anyone who would oppose us would hardly be in a position to do so, while most of our powerbase would be significantly more intact.
 
Ok i get why we haven't assassinated the stag king. But why the fuck we haven't killed tywin. He isn't that important for unity and we are just giving him more chances to screw us over. I say we send a few furies to kidnap him their teleport and balefull teleport charms. Then we end his souls.
 
Crake said:
Tiamat
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Probably
Crake said:
Deep Ones
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Maybe
Crake said:
Big Red
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Doubt that
Crake said:
Gold Noodle
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Doubt that.

Big Red's got forces to throw at us limitlessly, if not many entrances yet.
Noodle's very angry at us and we don't have a way to strike at his forces directly on any meaningful way, but really - only putting out any fires he makes.

That's the gist of it for any Devil/Demon/Daemon-lord, really.


Westeros-wise I'm worried about:
1) CoS (and unaligned Fey but mainly CoS).
2) Seven (and Stranger/his Chosen in particular)
3) Sleeper agents and spies (those barrows gonna be open, maaan)
4) Maesters conspiracy (Companion-level members possibility?! Even if not, too much sabotage portntial)
5) Lannisters (Lana and Gerion as PCs, ~2 Dragons, lots of mages and mercanaries and unknown weapons - possibly WMDs).

Lannisters and CoS are really out largest contenders the way I see it, if only for how much they can burn down before we get to them.

After all, Viserys puts it as one of his main goals IC - to keep the bodycount as low as possible.

:/

Had that not been the case, I would have been content with letting Tywin live a bit.
 
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[X] Crake
Acolyte said:
Ok i get why we haven't assassinated the stag king. But why the fuck we haven't killed tywin. He isn't that important for unity and we are just giving him more chances to screw us over. I say we send a few furies to kidnap him their teleport and balefull teleport charms. Then we end his souls.
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I am still of the opinion that at the very least we should do a strategic strike against the mountain and lorch.
 
Acolyte said:
Ok i get why we haven't assassinated the stag king. But why the fuck we haven't killed tywin. He isn't that important for unity and we are just giving him more chances to screw us over. I say we send a few furies to kidnap him their teleport and balefull teleport charms. Then we end his souls.
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This is something that require significant leadup. There's no reason not to kill him once we invade, but any action against him is basically taking the kiddie gloves off and it's on like Donkey Kong, no one holding back anything anymore, open fighting everywhere.

If we want to kill him, we need to be able to get inside his guard, which would take concerted major actions.
 
Acolyte said:
Ok i get why we haven't assassinated the stag king. But why the fuck we haven't killed tywin. He isn't that important for unity and we are just giving him more chances to screw us over. I say we send a few furies to kidnap him their teleport and balefull teleport charms. Then we end his souls.
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Because killing Tywin is without a doubt going to be messy, and we're not yet positioned for the fallout and inevitable cleanup. We've still got to deal with Tiamat via annihilating the Golden Company and the Deep Ones with their fortresses and cities.
 
Crake said:
This is something that require significant leadup. There's no reason not to kill him once we invade, but any action against him is basically taking the kiddie gloves off and it's on like Donkey Kong, no one holding back anything anymore, open fighting everywhere.

If we want to kill him, we need to be able to get inside his guard, which would take concerted major actions.
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Yeah but they aren't holding back tho. They tries to invade us. They have tried to send their star mage in our empire. They aren't doing anything because they can't project force to us. Not out of any unsaid treaty or what ever.
 
Duesal said:
Because killing Tywin is without a doubt going to be messy, and we're not yet positioned for the fallout and inevitable cleanup. We've still got to deal with Tiamat via annihilating the Golden Company and the Deep Ones with their fortresses and cities.
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Like what would the fall out be, tyrion ascends to the postion and deals with the lords himself. Not our problem till we invade. Tywins death isn't going have a big fallout.
 
Acolyte said:
Yeah but they aren't holding back tho. They tries to invade us. They have tried to send their star mage in our empire. They aren't doing anything because they can't project force to us. Not out of any unsaid treaty or what ever.
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But we are kinda of in a cold war after our attack on Lannisport, back then i argued that taking our The Mountain and Lorch was a better message, but that didn't win.
Right now he is simply not enough of a concern, he has spies and is probably researching something but we have much more pressing concerns, specifically Asmodeus, and maybe the Deep Ones.
Regarding the Deep Ones, i think its likely that they will notice our mercs and prepare a preemptive strike since they cannot divine when we will attack.

Edit: However, maybe we could stage an "accident" like uncle did to the hand, that should have had much bigger fallout yet it was so well done that nothing happened.
Maybe a pretend Deep One attack?
 
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das_slash said:
But we are kinda of in a cold war after our attack on Lannisport, back then i argued that taking our The Mountain and Lorch was a better message, but that didn't win.
Right now he is simply not enough of a concern, he has spies and is probably researching something but we have much more pressing concerns, specifically Asmodeus, and maybe the Deep Ones.
Regarding the Deep Ones, i think its likely that they will notice our mercs and prepare a preemptive strike since they cannot divine when we will attack.

Edit: However, maybe we could stage an "accident" like uncle did to the hand, that should have had much bigger fallout yet it was so well done that nothing happened.
Maybe a pretend Deep One attack?
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It would probably be a single minor action to kidnap tywin. Literally teleport and kill.
 
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