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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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It's a good thing the book is verboten, it gives us so much more time to argue about everything else. At least this vote is settled after the next update.

Edit: 236 voters, and we've still got 5 hours. This might actually be the most popular quest I've ever been involved in.
Adhoc vote count started by Zaratustra on Sep 24, 2019 at 9:04 AM, finished with 1001 posts and 236 votes.
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki

[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Help move the Karag Nar hoard

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Valayan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Just to be clear I am done arguing one way or another about tell or don't tell, but the post below is asking for inmformation on the setting so there's no reason for me not to provide it.

torac said:
This is a series of assertion without a logic chain I can follow. Why does this specific thing throw them for a loop, as opposed for any other grudges they cannot immediately resolve? Is there any canon example of this?
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I'd say the reason they are far more touchy about this than any other grudge is because the Chaos Dwarfs are dwarfs who did something unimaginable, abandoned the Ancestor Gods, but going a little deeper to the part no dwarf wants to admit to themselves, the Dark Lands dwarfs fell to chaos because no other holds would send aid... and even the Ancestor Gods themselves did not answer them. The Chaos Dwarfs themsleves are monstrous, but at the root of their tale lies the shame of the very Ancestors.
 
torac said:
The opposite, isn't it? People want her not to mention them because OOC they consider them to be a berserk button. In character, there is no clear reason to avoid it, and even the OOC reason is suspect.
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Fair enough. Looking back, I feel that our meta knowledge really impacted our decision for this vote, for better or worse.

Ultimately though, how Mathilde will deal with this is based on BoneyM and the method she will disclose the information will be written in a way IC to her, just like how the results of other votes had been written before.
 
DragonParadox said:
Just to be clear I am done arguing one way or another about tell or don't tell, but the post below is asking for inmformation on the setting so there's no reason for me not to provide it.



I'd say the reason they are far more touchy about this than any other grudge is because the Chaos Dwarfs are dwarfs who did something unimaginable, abandoned the Ancestor Gods, but going a little deeper to the part no dwarf wants to admit to themselves, the Dark Lands dwarfs fell to chaos because no other holds would send aid... and even the Ancestor Gods themselves did not answer them. The Chaos Dwarfs themsleves are monstrous, but at the root of their tale lies the shame of the very Ancestors.
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Didn't the other dwarfs have no idea they needed help? Only finding out about the issue much later?
 
[X] Join the hunting with Ruprecht Wulfhart
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Sparring
[X] Target shooting
[X] Put on a magic display (Petty and Lesser only)
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
ctulhuslp said:
I am not sure you are making a good argument against those who vote for full disclosure, if that is your intention.
What you said, once we remove salt, was basically "they counter every argument with a counterargument", which is...thanks for the endorsement????
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Do you have a general difficulty when it comes to reading irony and sarcasm? Because I don't think I've ever seen thicker in this thread.
ctulhuslp said:
Our best guess is that we accidentally hijacked the Story of Mork's Chosen.
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Is that a thing the possibility of which Mathilde learned in college? Or do you mean us the OOC players when you say "Our"?
Lupercal said:
and I don't think that getting influenced by an enemy GOD during a ritual directly related to said GOD were we acted according to the themes of said GOD is as big of a consern as people are portraying it as because it is a nearly irrepeatable freak occurance that can't be stopped by anything that a mortal can accomplish anyway.
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We have no idea wether being possessed once makes subsequent possessions easier. It isn't as if we pushed Mork out by force of will. He just lost interest and got distracted by Ranald once the job of killing the heretics was done.
Andmeuths said:
If that's the case, I'd rather come clean with Belegar and Kragg rather than implicitly betray Belegar's trust by omission. And I think Mathilde has enough nobility in her not to indirectly break the trust given to her by concealing information. In any case, I still mantain that the fact that we fought off a possesion increases our reliability, rather than reduces it anyway. But even if it's not, Mathilde is acting as the bigger witch by disclosing such potentially pertinent matters.
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Ah yes. Behave just like a true and noble Grey Magister would, because that's what Mathilde was taught during her childhood and that's how she acted in her last job.
Are you sure you aren't referring to a different wizard character here?
Lupercal said:
The main arguement of the last few pages for the stay silent supporters has been based on meta knowledge about Chaos Dwarfs and Kragg's reaction to them even being brought up by Mathild accidently.
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That may have been the most prominent argument, but it wasn't the only one, or even the best one.
Better ones would be that talking with Kragg about our possession by Mork is dangerous in and of itself. Or that we are a Grey Magister that doesn't value not directly relevant honestly higher than looking competent. Or that we are an agent of the Grey Order and should inform them about gigantic geopolitical news before spreading it to allied but foreign political entities. Or that there generally is no real and sure benefit to disclosing this information. I can't even think of much potential benefit. Most I've seen is something about Kragg and Belegar trusting us more than if they found out on their own, which I frankly find to be a sign of sorely lacking in faith towards our MC's prime skillset.
 
[X] Remain silent.​

Whilst it'd be interesting to see how Belegar and Kragg react I'd rather have Mathilde keep things to herself until she understands them better.

On a practical level there's nothing to be done about the Chaos Dwarves. As in it would take multiple centuries of buildup and campaigns at least as successful as this one seems to be shaping for the Dawi to grow sufficiently strong to mount significant expeditions.
 
torac said:
This is a series of assertion without a logic chain I can follow. Why does this specific thing throw them for a loop, as opposed for any other grudges they cannot immediately resolve? Is there any canon example of this?
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All grudges that they cannot address throw them into a loop. The Chaos Dwarves aren't special because of that.

What they are special for is being Chaos Dwarves. This isn't just "some assholes that the Dawi are obliged to try to kill from the depths of their soul", this is kin. Fellow Dawi are actively making the world a worse place. Dawi are the ones who are bringing dishonor upon all Dwarves.

It's one thing to have a grudge against Grobbi and set about destroying them bit by bit.

It's another to know that your own flesh and blood are the ones who have caused you and everyone else wrong.

And for the Dwarves? That would drive them to kill themselves as an existence to try to eradicate the Chaos Dwarves.

The reason why the Dawi don't talk about the Chaos Dwarves is because they are already on the edge of death, and if they were forced to acknowledge the latter's existence then due to the Dwarven Racial Mindset then they would be forced to kill themselves trying to (and likely failing to) eradicate the Chaos Dwarves.
 
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Inserting the tally is a bit noisy due to the combination of many voters and multiple item vote. Let me instead insert a descriptive leaderboard.

Events at Karag Nar: Remaining silent is tied with telling Belegar and Kragg at over 100 each
Pre-celebration: Solid lead for cooking with Panoramia and Titus, second activity will be checking ale quality, near tie between Skaroki and Johan for whom to do it with
Celebration: Gambling, Ranaldan religious service, telling war stories are leading. Introducing small wolf to big wolf to play is a close runner-up.
Shenanigans: Yes by a mile.
 
Walliseatscheese said:
And for the Dwarves? That would drive them to kill themselves as an existence to try to eradicate the Chaos Dwarves.

The reason why the Dawi don't talk about the Chaos Dwarves is because they are already on the edge of death, and if they were forced to acknowledge the latter's existence then due to the Dwarven Racial Mindset then they would be forced to kill themselves trying to (and likely failing to) eradicate the Chaos Dwarves.
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That sounds like bullshit. It really does. What source are you drawing on here that the Dawi are a hairtrigger away from marching en-masse to the Darklands?
 
Just a little reminder for everyone debating, but spaghetti posting, while not against the rules, is looked down on, and should probably be avoided going forward.
 
Rafin said:
Do you have a general difficulty when it comes to reading irony and sarcasm? Because I don't think I've ever seen thicker in this thread.
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That's the joke though: that the core of complaint, once you remove salt, is that...we are arguing?
The fuck are we supposed to do, not argue for what we think is the right choice the best we can just because someone disagrees with us? Hence my response: of course I am joking about it being an endorsement, because the complaint of "oh no how dare they voice counterarguments" is nonsensical, whether framed as sarcasm or no.

The only one not getting sarcasm here is you.

Rafin said:
Is that a thing the possibility of which Mathilde learned in college? Or do you mean us the OOC players when you say "Our"?
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Both.
IC she has this:
BoneyM said:
An attempt to tear asunder the strongest deities to ever work in unison. But in enshrining a God of Only Brutality, that machination had inevitably created a counter-force, a God of Only Cunning. And you can somehow feel the intended conduit of that deity on the edge of your perception, you see within Karag Rhyn a half-grown goblin standing motionless in horror as his place in history is usurped, even as one of his boyz takes the opportunity to usurp his Boss and slips a dagger between his ribs. That conduit has been abandoned, as your act of surreptitious murder in this place and time put you directly under the influence of Only Mork.
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Mathilde had a sort of epiphany and a vision of Skarsnik dying due to her stealing his legend.
 
Mopman43 said:
That sounds like bullshit. It really does. What source are you drawing on here that the Dawi are a hairtrigger away from marching en-masse to the Darklands?
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My own personal understanding of the Dwarven mindset as drawn from WHF and this quest, applied to the task of answering the question of "Why do the Dawi deny the existence of Fire Dwarves from what I recall about the general dwarven response to a nondwarf talking about them?"

Like, if you disagree then that's fine, but someone asked what makes the Chaos Dwarves so special as opposed to any other non-solvable-without-dying-as-a-species Grudge, and so I answered to my understanding of it.
 
Derpmind said:
I don't disagree. I just think sharing this event will be helpful to both Belegar and Mathilde, and I don't see how staying silent would instead be helpful.
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I think we've just got a different assessment of the risks and benefits, which is reasonable.
Clearly the thread is having trouble with weighing the balance. (One reason I think Belegar might also).

I think telling risks being unhelpful to our perceived reliability, and don't see enough value to Mathilde or Belegar to outweigh that, if it restricts our direct utility to the Expedition (due to e.g. reduced ability to trust us).
 
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Okay, I've seen some arguments for Chaos Dwarfs being their biggest / worst grudge. I'd be much more interested in any canon info on dwarfs going bonkers and shunning / attacking / whatevering any friendly humans or other allies at the mere mention of Chaos Dwarfs.

I get that it's a touchy subject for them, but the only canon example anyone provided was of an especially belligerent dwarf getting angry when someone tried to argue that their grudge against elves was hypocritical and used Chaos Dwarves as an example. I don't see how that compares to this situation, like, at all.

Note that I just want to understand this argument. I've seen other convincing arguments for the "stay silent" vote, but this one just has me scratching my head even after repeatedly asking for more information and reading all the answers. I kind of see it as the difference between talking about the greenskin gods and comparing them to ancestor gods. They would hate if someone started telling them that all the gods were the same, but that does not mean that any mention of the greenskin gods at all puts them in a state of rage.

Exmorri said:
Shenanigans: Yes by a mile.
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I'd say it's at least two miles by now.
 
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Rafin said:
Ah yes. Behave just like a true and noble Grey Magister would, because that's what Mathilde was taught during her childhood and that's how she acted in her last job.
Are you sure you aren't referring to a different wizard character here?
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This is the same Wizard that decided to tell Roswita an account of her time as Spymistress, rather than simply yoinking every connection and network she made that she could pry with Roswita none the wiser and putting them under the jurisdiction of the Grey Order to dispose of as they see fit. The moment Plan Be A Bigger Witch won, Mathilde became a character that isn't exactly your typical Grey Magister. So yes, forgive me if I find the Mathilda is a typical Grey Magister argument to be very unsatisfactory.
 
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