Even if that's the case, which I doubt, he has multiple lifetimes of experience of warding against greenskin magic and greenskin gods, the expertise that is immediately applicable here.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I also don't get why the Stay Silent crowd is so salty given that they are winning by two points at the time of posting.
Daemons and gods are to some substantial degree living stories. Being possessed by one is to some degree being hijacked by their narrative at the cost of your own.
Why do you keep insisting she was only influenced when we saw in first person perspective the act of her being possessed by Mork, and it being that possession that allowed Ranald to steal the piece of Mork shoved inside Mathilde.
As dwarves are blind to magic, they don't have the vulnerability to possession human magic users do, so it's not a scenario he could have experience with.
We can read a trend line. We were winning by fifteen votes not long ago.
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- Location
- Internet, The
[Some post I forgot to quote]
Mathilde is not a cultist.
Ranald does not have a unified "cult".
Seeing Ranald as "the god of thieves" is severely misleading.
There may be other triggers, but what happened was very very specific
I'd especially like some more context about the Teclis/Dwarf dude situation. That has been the only example anyone has ever provided, but no one actually mentioned what happened there. If anyone has more info, please write it into the thread or provide links!
Mathilde is not a cultist.
Ranald does not have a unified "cult".
Seeing Ranald as "the god of thieves" is severely misleading.
*known trigger
There may be other triggers, but what happened was very very specific
I consider that completely rational, if not a decision I would make myself. This is an elaborate suicide, and certainly better than the ways humans typically kill themselves. You might argue that the whole concept of becoming a slayer is wasteful, but it is very rational. Their decision-making process stopped working because their goals are impossible, therefore they stop working. Very rational.
No one said it would be. Don't argue against empty air.
Is it? I though it was taking their oaths seriously to the point of giving up if they cannot fulfill them. Shame may be involved, but it is a consequence, not the cause.
That is a matter of opinion and speculation. I consider the first a minor risk and seriously doubt the second part.
Absolutely no one did that. Do not argue with straw figures.
Good point. We should immediately get help with that…
I'd love citations. Please, I've been so close to voting to remain silent. If you have them, please provide citations.
I'd especially like some more context about the Teclis/Dwarf dude situation. That has been the only example anyone has ever provided, but no one actually mentioned what happened there. If anyone has more info, please write it into the thread or provide links!
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Less worried about whether we are now more vulnerable to 'possession' by an Orky God.
Clearly, in the right circumstances, we were, and there's nothing much we, or a priest, or a runelord, can really do about it.
The same goes for anyone else in that circumstance, it's just that they've not had it happen.
So, say we do point out this 'possession' happened to us.
What is a concern to me is going from being seen as one of the biggest assets of the Expedition, to a dangerous liability. I think it's a possible outcome.
I believe I'd be concerned if my wildcard ninja wizard ally told me an enemy god did act through her, if I were in Belegars place. And I'd wonder 'what if it happens again'?
Edit: so it's all about perception.
Clearly the thread is finding it difficult to assess the risks at play here.
Isn't it possible Belegar will likewise? In which case, maybe he takes a better safe than sorry approach, whatever that looks like.
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- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Dwarfs act irrational when it comes to grudges and debts. We can see this with slayers. Is it rational for people to throw away their lives because they couldn't do something? No it's not rational.
Now what do dwarfs do to people who betray and kill dwarfs. They go and kill them. That is the problem. They can't go and kill chaos dwarfs. There is no way they can project enough force across the dark lands.
So now they are stuck. They must go and kill the chaos dwarfs because chaos dwarfs have betrayed and killed yet in their current state it is impossible. Solution. Don't acknowledge it. As long as the dwarfs don't acknowledge it they don't have to act on it.
Bringing up chaos dwarfs lock the dwarfs, because of their psychology, into a loop. The grudge is so great that it must be dealt with. There is a zero chance of successfully dealing with the grudge. The conflicting logic patterns create massive dissonance and so they lash out in order to release the frustration that such conflicting logic patterns create.
The dwarfs are like stone or runes. Given certain conditions and triggers they will act in a certain way. Creating conflicting logic patterns in dwarfs is a great way to make slayers because they have very few options for dealing with conflicting logic patterns. They are not humans were they can just choose one logic pattern to follow.
So that is why I fear they will act irrationally. Mathilde will, by bringing up chaos dwarfs, be the cause of the conflicting logic patterns of avenging the grudge and helping the rest of dwarfs. This is not a situation I would want Mathilde in. That is the assertion I am making. Based on my knowledge of fantasy dwarfs opening this can of worms can only end badly.
But I am thankful that you humored me. Thank you for coming down from your exalted plane to discuss this with me.
Now lets talk about your reason for voting for breaking the silence. Your argument is that discussing being possessed by Mork is that it's "business as usually." It's "nothing special." I don't know about you but I don't think discussing events between gods is normal.
Mathilde has already shown a great deal of care in what she reports before during her time in Stirland. Mathilde has a habit of not reporting everything she gets up too. Yet all of a sudden that should change? Mathilde should adopt a policy of openness? That doesn't seem like Mathilde to me. The job was done. The people who need to know that the job was done know that the job was done. The details don't need to be shared.
To me your argument reeks of the mindset that Mathilde should be able to bask in the glory of what she achieved. Yet that is not what the grey order is about. After all
If you don't think that any actions can or should be taken with this information then we don't need to share it. I can definitely see the case that some people are making for sharing because they think something could be done with it. I don't agree with them but I can at least understand where they are coming from. But you. You just want to share because you can share? That doesn't sound like the grey order which keeps it's cards close to it's chest and an ace up it's sleeve.
We shouldn't look for glory. We shouldn't share information for the sole sake of getting more glory. And frankly that is the only reason I can think of for your almost flippant answer to my question.
They are immune to dhar corruption too, and it took Kragg one evening to make an anti-dhar belt.
Mathilde is a cultist of Ranald. That's what people specifically devoted to a god are called in Warhammer. You have the cult of Sigmar, of Ulric, of Verena, etc. And you also have the cut of Ranald, of which Mathilde is a part.
We know one of the potentially vast set of potential triggers that could result in her possession. A single observation gives no information on the probability distribution of triggers apart from saying that the set is not empty and the possibility is not zero.
- Location
- Australia
Still annoyed that the human mercenaries wrecking the orks is being continually written up as entirely Kragg's work by IC sources when OOC they scored over a hundred solely on their own merits and received no bonus from dwarves.
As we just saw with they chaos dwarves, no they're not. That's why they have the Rune of Valaya on the doors of their holds, to prevent them being corrupted during extrmeme magical events, like the time before the Great Vortex's formation. That's why the Rune was invented.
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
[X] Join the hunting with Esbern and Seija
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
- Location
- Austria
"Be more careful when poking long powerful rituals of gods" is just about the only realistic conclusion to make and follow, really.
Given that we gave apparently zero shit about being corrupted Sylvania or whatnot, far as dwarfs can tell. Given Belt, Kragg definitely does not believe it
Given our vote options to call for undead when we were there, he is not wrong, but that's a tangent >_>But really, while possibility is there, I think that us not screaming WAAAGH should calm them down somewhat. Orks, even kunning ones, are not subtle.
- Location
- Singapore
Well, if we sustained an attempted possession and successfully freed ourselves of it in such a way we gave Mork a black eye, and if everyone is equally vulnerable to a possession, then the fact that Mathilde managed to counter that possession, if she could convince her audience that she managed to counter the possession and regain control over herself probably increases her reliability rather than increase her liability.
I'm more worried about the Ranald part. Greenskin magic can be warded against, devotion to a very undwarfy god is inherent to us.
- Location
- Norway
<Light College Magister> I think you'll find the possibility can still be zero, if you'll just let me have a moment with the blackboard to spell out the calculations, yes, I heard you say it happened, no the possibility can still be zero, I'll explain. It has to do with infinitely large numbers. Actually, on second thought, let me explain infinitely large numbers first. I'm going to need a second blackboard...
- Location
- Cardassia Prime
Already mentioned some of this but:
1) Teclis brought up the Chaos Dwarfs when Gotrek refused any notion of there being a seperate faction of Dark Elves who are responsible for all the past occurences of slaving and pirating, claiming all Elves are the same clique so Teclis then brought up the Chaos Dwarfs as a counter-example.
2) None as far I can tell outside of possibly exchanging a few words during the Great War Against Chaos as part of the big Empire-Elf-Dwarf alliance, but there's no info on that.
3) As mentioned in 1, it was Teclis pointing out Gotrek's hypocrisy by lampshading the Dwarfs too have a splinter faction of evil maniacs when Gotrek denied there being no such thing as a seperate 'Dark Elf' faction when accusing Elves of being murderers and slavers.
4) Gotrek tried to kill Teclis the moment he saw him, believing all Elves to be treacherous and deserving of death for the War of the Beard and the acts of the Dark Elves and already on edge due to being trapped in a magical mirror realm, only calming down due to his companion Felix talking sense into him. When Teclis brought up the Chaos Dwarfs, Gotrek got hostile again and Felix again had to calm him down.
Afterwards they continued together on their quest to slay a twin pair of Sorcerers of Tzeentch and a Chaos Giant. Source material is the novel Giantslayer by William King.
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High rolls have a reason in this quest. In this case those 90+ rolls were in character caused by dwarves runecraft. Could just as easily be caused by an Orc tripping at just the right time or any other factor. This is just how Qm decided to write it.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It is worth mentioning that Gotrek is a Slayer and a violent one even by their standerds.
The second high roll was caused by dwarf runecraft. The first wan't.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Not really.
Once the Hold walls are breached once, the enemy knows where the weak spots are.
Our walls have been breached by Mork.
Now, is there an actual increased risk to us? We don't know, can't really know.
But say you're a leader in a still-tenuous military position? Should you take that risk?
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
Well thanks for the implication that everyone who disagrees with you is clearly just out to get you or something.
- Location
- Aotearoa
I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that- I'm merely worried that some level of trust could be lost.
- Location
- Philippines
Mathilde was only possessed? because she was disrupting a ritual to awaken a idol or something bad, teeming with waagh energy that under normal circumstances would be bad, and normally no normal person can stop, even killing the orks priests has a unknown effect on the waagh energy.
When Mork noticed the heretical priests being murdered, he got drawn to Mathilde, her options were to do nothing but and go along with it, or to do something, which is to try to control it or throw it at the mountain, which would have consequences, instead she prayed to her God for salvation, and thus Mork was weakened,
If Kragg threw a tantrum, he would be acting unreasonable and ungrateful, for the lives Mathilde saved, and for stopping the ritual from unleashing something bad.
When Mork noticed the heretical priests being murdered, he got drawn to Mathilde, her options were to do nothing but and go along with it, or to do something, which is to try to control it or throw it at the mountain, which would have consequences, instead she prayed to her God for salvation, and thus Mork was weakened,
If Kragg threw a tantrum, he would be acting unreasonable and ungrateful, for the lives Mathilde saved, and for stopping the ritual from unleashing something bad.