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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[x] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[x] Drinking
[X] Gambling

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
WorldSlayer said:
Codrin is probably the scariest guy in the expedition. If he hadn't come out and said he was trying to kill as many adventurers as possible I'd never have suspected him of being anything but a good commander who wants the best for all his men.
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I wonder if the in-narrative reason for the mercenaries doing so well will be that Codrin weeded out the bad ones, so the remaining core is solid?

Edit: 200 voters, and the voting period won't end for another ~15 hours, minimum. I think this is the standard, now.
Adhoc vote count started by NotteBoy97 on Sep 23, 2019 at 11:01 PM, finished with 607 posts and 200 votes.
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Derpmind said:
And you think the Dwarves wouldn't want to know that one of their enemies is capable of doing something as drastic and dangerous and creating Black Orcs? I don't see this as the memetic mindkiller people have made it out to be. I think it's important strategic-level information. Like, what's the IC explanation here? Evil Dwarves exist and did something with world-wide implications, therefore it shouldn't be talked about because it'd make our allies upset? :???: That's a bit of a leap, yeah?
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Because you're imposing a human mindset on an alien one is the issue.

Yes, strategically, it's valuable, but we have no way of acting on it because they're so far away from us and have a buffer zone only slightly less impassable than the Chaos Wastes between the Old World and any way to actually hit them. (And they're not making more Black Orcs nowadays either)

And Dwarfs cannot let things go, they cannot go "It's nice to know this but we can't do anything about it so we'll just steadily work our way forward", they either go "Okay we're going to kill ourselves to avenge this at all costs and surrender all of our other endeavours to do so", or they acknowledge they can't do anything about it and fester in anger and rancor further based on it.

If Dwarfs cannot avenge a grudge, it's an anchor on them, and that's exactly what you're proposing giving them--a Grudge they can't avenge.

Like, seriously though, how does knowing the Black Orcs were originally created by the Chaos Dwarfs change out strategic calculus at all, please, tell me, I'll be here all night and you seem very confident in that we can act on it right now.
 
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Derpmind said:
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

I'm sorry, but the arguments against disclosure have gotten friggin repulsive. People are constantly hammering the 100% OOC argument that even mentioning Chaos Dwarves will cause Terrible Consequences. Never mind what Mathilde would think. Maybe she honestly wants Kragg's insight into whatever actually happened, maybe she feels obligated to repay the frankly amazing levels of trust King Belegar has extended to us. Maybe, instead of flying off the handle and going crazy, Belegar and Kragg's reaction would be to nod solemnly, tell the important information about the Chaos Dwarf's capabilities to some few who should know, and then continue on with their lives doing important things over on this half of the planet? Mainly, though, I'm voting this way because I can't stand the tone of the argument people have fallen to. Stop hitting people over the head with your OOC hammer of apocalyptic consequences. The vote is supposed to be what the character decides to do, not some optimal decision based on overinflated conjectures and fearmongering. At this point, if the "Remain silent" vote wins, it might be in-character because Mathilde was simply too scared to say anything.

[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service

...also, I don't know why playing with a giant wolf has been so popular all day long. I think some people might think it's necessary to hang out with our Wolf? *shrug*
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I also will point out as one of the most vocal remain silence argumentees that I have have not once used the chaos dwarf argument (as I do think that's a little occ) my agreement has been completely characterized based, and that she would be to scared to is a good argument and I will now use that to as it makes sense seeing how see just throw away for simpler reasons.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Mate, this is not 100% OOC. Dwarves created Black Orcs. We don't know the details, just that they did. That's a big issue. And it comes with a side order of possession and control by a Greenskin god.
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If Mathilde doesn't quite know how sore the point of Chaos Dwarves is to the Dwarves, then the fact that there are an unknown group of rouge chaos cultist Dwarves who created Black Orcs as an experiment seems to be the kind of thing Mathilde would tell Belegar and Kragg, precisely because there is a sensitive internal security issue that Mathilde uncovered, that reeks of chaos cult infiltration. If Mathilde doesn't know of the extent of the chaos dwarf taboo among the dwarves, it seems more likely she's going to revert to her prior instincts developed as a journeymen at Abel's court: sensitive and dangerous topics such as a chaos cult infiltration ought to be disclosed in private to Kings and Elector Counts rather than sensitive topics ought not to be talked about at all.


Jyn Ryvia said:
I also will point out as one of the most vocal remain silence argumentees that have have not once used the chaos dwarf argument (as I do think that's a little occ) my agreement has been completely characterized based, and that she would be to scared to is a good argument and I will now use that to as it makes sense seeing how see just throw away for simpler reasons.
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Mathilde choosing silence because she is too scared to tell the truth even behind closed doors contradicts her Brave Trait doesn't it? Fear as a basis of silence doesn't seem to be a very IC move for Mathilde to make.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Mate, this is not 100% OOC. Dwarves created Black Orcs. We don't know the details, just that they did. That's a big issue. And it comes with a side order of possession and control by a Greenskin god.
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we do not know that the dwarves know about those sorcerers, in which case telling them could be important, and not telling them could mean they remain ignorant of a chaos cult in some dwarf hold we've never heard of.
 
Andmeuths said:
If Mathilde doesn't quite know how sore the point of Chaos Dwarves is to the Dwarves, then the fact that there are an unknown group of rouge chaos cultist Dwarves who created Black Orcs as an experiment seems to be the kind of thing Mathilde would tell Belegar and Kragg, precisely because there is a sensitive internal security issue that Mathilde uncovered. If Mathilde doesn't know of the extent of the chaos dwarf taboo among the dwarves, it seems more likely she's going to revert to her: sensitive topics ought to be disclosed in private to Kings and Elector Counts behavior rather than: sensitive topics ought not to be talked about at all.
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I'm of the opinion that 'One shouldn't actively try to make a mistake because you can justify making that mistake ICly '

We don't need help to fuck up, it'll happen all on its own.
 
Derpmind said:
And you think the Dwarves wouldn't want to know that one of their enemies is capable of doing something as drastic and dangerous and creating Black Orcs? I don't see this as the memetic mindkiller people have made it out to be. I think it's important strategic-level information. Like, what's the IC explanation here? Evil Dwarves exist and did something with world-wide implications, therefore it shouldn't be talked about because it'd make our allies upset? :???: That's a bit of a leap, yeah?
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It is when we say "we got it when we were possessed by an evil god", which you are ignoring.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

[X] Drinking
[X] Gambling
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
 
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Derpmind said:
And you think the Dwarves wouldn't want to know that one of their enemies is capable of doing something as drastic and dangerous and creating Black Orcs? I don't see this as the memetic mindkiller people have made it out to be. I think it's important strategic-level information. Like, what's the IC explanation here? Evil Dwarves exist and did something with world-wide implications, therefore it shouldn't be talked about because it'd make our allies upset? :???: That's a bit of a leap, yeah?
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Thing is, it's a package deal. All or nothing, Mathilde is thinking. If I start this, there's no stopping point halfway.

So, In character- "lets not tell this King and this very reactionary runesmith we were possessed by a greenskin God".
All sorts of reasonable in character reasons. From vanity, where it undermines our mystique, through to operational concerns about not being trusted with important information anymore, for having been merged with Mork.

The Chaos Dwarves- we know Dwarves can be touchy, and are honour bound, and about slayer oaths. So we know a little about Dwarven psychology- not a lot, but some.
Now, we don't know about Chaos Dwarves in particular, and there is some OOC reasoning happening, but in character I'm happy enough with assuming a Grey Wizard operational maxim of "don't divulge information unless you know what effect doing so will have." It's not unreasonable to infer this is a weighty matter.
 
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[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg

[X] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

[X] Gambling
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Play with a giant wolf

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
So, to hopefully divert some of the rancor, anyone have suggestions for Dwarf Shenanigans? For reference,
BoneyM said:
- Dwarven Shenanigans largely consist of finding new and interesting ways to torment greenskins. If they are engaged upon, there will only be permanent consequences for anyone but the greenskins if they are judged to be hilarious.
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So, some initial ideas:
-Conscripting goblins to act as no-wings Doom Divers - with some artillerists/rangers acting as judges to make sure that Dwarves can shoot goblins more accurately than goblins can shoot goblins.
-Road Runner shenanigans using Skywalk.
 
Derpmind said:
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

I'm sorry, but the arguments against disclosure have gotten friggin repulsive. People are constantly hammering the 100% OOC argument that even mentioning Chaos Dwarves will cause Terrible Consequences. Never mind what Mathilde would think. Maybe she honestly wants Kragg's insight into whatever actually happened, maybe she feels obligated to repay the frankly amazing levels of trust King Belegar has extended to us. Maybe, instead of flying off the handle and going crazy, Belegar and Kragg's reaction would be to nod solemnly, tell the important information about the Chaos Dwarf's capabilities to some few who should know, and then continue on with their lives doing important things over on this half of the planet? Mainly, though, I'm voting this way because I can't stand the tone of the argument people have fallen to. Stop hitting people over the head with your OOC hammer of apocalyptic consequences. The vote is supposed to be what the character decides to do, not some optimal decision based on overinflated conjectures and fearmongering. At this point, if the "Remain silent" vote wins, it might be in-character because Mathilde was simply too scared to say anything.

[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service

...also, I don't know why playing with a giant wolf has been so popular all day long. I think some people might think it's necessary to hang out with our Wolf? *shrug*
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Also, I find using an emotional argument of being upset by the tone of discussion, then ignoring half of the problem to be more than a little annoying.
 
Alectai said:
If Dwarfs cannot avenge a grudge, it's an anchor on them, and that's exactly what you're proposing giving them--a Grudge they can't avenge.
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A Grudge that can't be avenged is one that is absolutely impossible to solve. Karak Eight Peaks is being retaken, three thousand years later, right now. By your logic, something as traumatic as loosing Karak Eight Peaks should have caused the entire Dwarven race to have taken the slayer oaths thousands of years ago. Instead, they persevered and waited long enough to when they actually could avenge the grudge.

You're the one who's misunderstanding the Dwarven mindset. The problem of the Chaos Dwarves is one that's beyond and individual Dwarf or Dwarven lifetime, but it's one that they still intend to solve eventually. If the Moon itself slighted the Dwarves, then I have no doubt in my mind that hundreds or thousands of years later you'd have rocketships landing on the Moon to give it its deserved hammering.

Giving the information that Chaos Dwarves created Black Orcs actually helps the grudge eventually be avenged, since knowing the capabilities of your enemy is an important step to defeating them.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg

[X] Join the hunting with Ulthar
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus

[X] Gambling
[X] Listening to Longbeards grumble
[X] Play with a giant wolf

[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Derpmind said:
If the Moon itself slighted the Dwarves, then I have no doubt in my mind that hundreds or thousands of years later you'd have rocketships landing on the Moon to give it its deserved hammering.
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Given what the moon in Warhammer is like (well, one of them anyway) I wouldn't be surprised if that was already the case.
 
Derpmind said:
A Grudge that can't be avenged is one that is absolutely impossible to solve. Karak Eight Peaks is being retaken, three thousand years later, right now. By your logic, something as traumatic as loosing Karak Eight Peaks should have caused the entire Dwarven race to have taken the slayer oaths thousands of years ago. Instead, they persevered and waited long enough to when they actually could avenge the grudge.

You're the one who's misunderstanding the Dwarven mindset. The problem of the Chaos Dwarves is one that's beyond and individual Dwarf or Dwarven lifetime, but it's one that they still intend to solve eventually. If the Moon itself slighted the Dwarves, then I have no doubt in my mind that hundreds or thousands of years later you'd have rocketships landing on the Moon to give it its deserved hammering.

Giving the information that Chaos Dwarves created Black Orcs actually helps the grudge eventually be avenged, since knowing the capabilities of your enemy is an important step to defeating them.
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Yeah, generations later. Who knows how many slayers were made frmo the fall of Karak Eight Peaks.

And Information gained when possessed by a Greenskin god is not in any way reliable or trustworthy information.
 
[X] Remain silent.
[X] Join the hunting with Maximilian
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Telling war stories
[X] Gambling
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Derpmind said:
A Grudge that can't be avenged is one that is absolutely impossible to solve. Karak Eight Peaks is being retaken, three thousand years later, right now. By your logic, something as traumatic as loosing Karak Eight Peaks should have caused the entire Dwarven race to have taken the slayer oaths thousands of years ago. Instead, they persevered and waited long enough to when they actually could avenge the grudge.

You're the one who's misunderstanding the Dwarven mindset. The problem of the Chaos Dwarves is one that's beyond and individual Dwarf or Dwarven lifetime, but it's one that they still intend to solve eventually. If the Moon itself slighted the Dwarves, then I have no doubt in my mind that hundreds or thousands of years later you'd have rocketships landing on the Moon to give it its deserved hammering.

Giving the information that Chaos Dwarves created Black Orcs actually helps the grudge eventually be avenged, since knowing the capabilities of your enemy is an important step to defeating them.
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Yes, it's one they plan to solve eventually, but until they can start doing so, it's an anchor and a constant source of shame.

If they don't know about it, they can work at getting their shit on the home front sorted out first, before starting on adventures halfway across the planet against an entrenched enemy with mad science.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Also, I find using an emotional argument of being upset by the tone of discussion, then ignoring half of the problem to be more than a little annoying.
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I can't argue against everything, and much of the argument for and against disclosure happened over the... 67 pages since it came up two updates ago. But the Chaos Dwarf argument is more recent and is what very much most upsets me. Frankly I don't think I can even keep up with the thread while posting.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
[X] Cook with Panoramia and Titus
[X] Gambling
[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
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