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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Problem with most D&D retrocognitive spells (and surprisingly there are a variety) is they also tie-in mechanically (or perhaps that's metaphysically in-universe) with the limitation on many spells and the further back in time you try to effect. That just leads into the line of thinking that Time is a hard thing to effect, and even at the highest Level (9th Level Spell compared to 4th or even 7th) spell, you only see relatively marginal returns on how far back you can effect, and DP's tendency to not make spells trivialize actual legwork and research, and just plain sheer boredom at the idea that you can glean enough information equal to traveling back in time and witnessing the event itself (that's ludicrous and you can just give up on it now) combined with wanting a certain degree of narrative tension and failure modes (preparing for people you understand, might have met, have a profile for, or even plain can monitor what they are doing now, compared to the motives and means and actions of some people from several thousand years prior).

We would have an easier time Jossing and debunking all of the writings of Mushroom and giving people a full and unabridged account of what really happened in the Dance, but if we did that we would immediately be killing the fucking shit out of a lot of people as all the dirty little secrets of which family benefited most cutting a deal with dirty dirty Anti-Targ conspiracies came to roost in our ear, and the Maesters panicked regardless of what we overlooked because they would look so bad that no one would think they could cut a deal. I'm talking systematic corruption that isn't just Anti-Magic and Anti-Dragon, I'm saying that what they've been using their influence to do on the sly would make no Lord trust them, no one would contribute funds to keeping the institution going, and it would political suicide to send your sons there to learn, not even getting into competing institutions of learning we're supporting also being the death knell of the place.

In fact just opening up a public school and university in not just Sorcerers's Deep, but extending the former to Tyrosh, should straight up be sending the Citadel into alternating fits of joy for the idealists and sheer mounting panic for the political operators. This institutionalization of formal education deeper than administrative, social and martial learning programs they pass onto the nobility removes pretty much every lever they have beyond access to rare knowledge.

And seeing as how Essos is more advanced than Westeros on the innovation front, the only leverage over us I.E the people who matter is magical knowledge... and I find it unlikely they have access to Essosi traditions of magic beyond surface level stuff like Qohor having the rituals to reforge Valyrian steel.

TL;DR Citadel is fuuucked in twelve months with the spread of public schooling unless they straight up ally with the Deep Ones or the Lannisters and start an assassination campaign. Which would also take a dragnet operation to identify the right people to kill, and good luck getting past the Inquisition.

Once those three bullet points connect, I'm bare minimum expecting a delegation from the Reach begging us not to continue that social program through some kind of fait accompli type deal with a noble house who we don't want to alienate.

Which come to think of it is pretty much the Hightowers, since no other Reach house fits that profile and hasn't been thoroughly approached by us.
 
@egoo Minor action.

[ ] Late in the month, arrange a dinner with the family and Lord Paxter and his sons to discuss the political dispositions and activities of the Reach's nobility, as we have at present a very narrow view of such relationships.

OOCly this is a region where we only have tertiary information like "as you know, the Florents hate the Tyrells and the Tarlys are as conservative in stance as their Lord and House Hightower is some kind of self-contained political entity of its own, and as for the Tyrells you can't trust them with a forty foot pole unless you're in their blind-spot leading towards them having a Queen and royal grandchildren".
 
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Crake said:
Problem with most D&D retrocognitive spells (and surprisingly there are a variety) is they also tie-in mechanically (or perhaps that's metaphysically in-universe) with the limitation on many spells and the further back in time you try to effect. That just leads into the line of thinking that Time is a hard thing to effect, and even at the highest Level (9th Level Spell compared to 4th or even 7th) spell, you only see relatively marginal returns on how far back you can effect, and DP's tendency to not make spells trivialize actual legwork and research, and just plain sheer boredom at the idea that you can glean enough information equal to traveling back in time and witnessing the event itself (that's ludicrous and you can just give up on it now) combined with wanting a certain degree of narrative tension and failure modes (preparing for people you understand, might have met, have a profile for, or even plain can monitor what they are doing now, compared to the motives and means and actions of some people from several thousand years prior).

We would have an easier time Jossing and debunking all of the writings of Mushroom and giving people a full and unabridged account of what really happened in the Dance, but if we did that we would immediately be killing the fucking shit out of a lot of people as all the dirty little secrets of which family benefited most cutting a deal with dirty dirty Anti-Targ conspiracies came to roost in our ear, and the Maesters panicked regardless of what we overlooked because they would look so bad that no one would think they could cut a deal. I'm talking systematic corruption that isn't just Anti-Magic and Anti-Dragon, I'm saying that what they've been using their influence to do on the sly would make no Lord trust them, no one would contribute funds to keeping the institution going, and it would political suicide to send your sons there to learn, not even getting into competing institutions of learning we're supporting also being the death knell of the place.

In fact just opening up a public school and university in not just Sorcerers's Deep, but extending the former to Tyrosh, should straight up be sending the Citadel into alternating fits of joy for the idealists and sheer mounting panic for the political operators. This institutionalization of formal education deeper than administrative, social and martial learning programs they pass onto the nobility removes pretty much every lever they have beyond access to rare knowledge.

And seeing as how Essos is more advanced than Westeros on the innovation front, the only leverage over us I.E the people who matter is magical knowledge... and I find it unlikely they have access to Essosi traditions of magic beyond surface level stuff like Qohor having the rituals to reforge Valyrian steel.

TL;DR Citadel is fuuucked in twelve months with the spread of public schooling unless they straight up ally with the Deep Ones or the Lannisters and start an assassination campaign. Which would also take a dragnet operation to identify the right people to kill, and good luck getting past the Inquisition.

Once those three bullet points connect, I'm bare minimum expecting a delegation from the Reach begging us not to continue that social program through some kind of fait accompli type deal with a noble house who we don't want to alienate.

Which come to think of it is pretty much the Hightowers, since no other Reach house fits that profile and hasn't been thoroughly approached by us.
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Retrocognition does spell out that things get vaguer the further back you go, as for the impact of such spells on the game the current vote has Legend Lore, the bullshit spell DMs pull out when you've actually been effective at keeping your identity and actions hidden.

The universe told them. Because once you're level 11 if they know that you exist in theory(i.e. have you done anything that had any lasting effect), that spell just works -.-

I'd vote to set the Hightowers on fire before preserving the Citadel at their behest, catch up or catch on fire.

Edit:

[X] Goldfish

Regardless @DragonParadox can tell us how Retrocognition works, I'd expect to get something more than Legend Lore because it's geographically locked and therefore more focused in scope.
 
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I said not alienate, not bend over backwards for. The Hightowers would do an about face 180 on that stance with all the dirty laundry we have to air on the Citadel, and their current Lord trusts us. So unless Baelor gets fucking merced and replaced by his brother, which Lucan might still be angling for, that route is dead in the water.

But with that in mind perhaps we should be helping Baelor out directly. So far that just involves keeping him alive and cognizant.
 
Crake said:
Once those three bullet points connect, I'm bare minimum expecting a delegation from the Reach begging us not to continue that social program through some kind of fait accompli type deal with a noble house who we don't want to alienate.

Which come to think of it is pretty much the Hightowers, since no other Reach house fits that profile and hasn't been thoroughly approached by us.
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Yeah, I would not be surprised by this at all.

I expect their offer will be to make available all the intelligence they have access to across Westeros due to their raven network, along with unrestricted access to their lore. All for the low price of allowing them to retain control of virtually all forms of higher education in Westeros, and perhaps even the entire Imperium.

I will vote to laugh at them until they either attack us or slink out of the room in embarrassment.
 
Goldfish said:
Yeah, I would not be surprised by this at all.

I expect their offer will be to make available all the intelligence they have access to across Westeros due to their raven network, along with unrestricted access to their lore. All for the low price of allowing them to retain control of virtually all forms of higher education in Westeros, and perhaps even the entire Imperium.

I will vote to laugh at them until they either attack us or slink out of the room in embarrassment.
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I have been waiting to just laugh someone out of a room or into assaulting our royal person for this entire quest. We have laughed scornfully, before, but only to briefly highlight a point.

I want a deep belly laugh at something someone proposes at least once.
 
Crake said:
I said not alienate, not bend over backwards for. The Hightowers would do an about face 180 on that stance with all the dirty laundry we have to air on the Citadel, and their current Lord trusts us. So unless Baelor gets fucking merced and replaced by his brother, which Lucan might still be angling for, that route is dead in the water.

But with that in mind perhaps we should be helping Baelor out directly. So far that just involves keeping him alive and cognizant.
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As you and Goldfish both have already noted there is no impactful action we could take (or not) for them that would be considered even remotely worth what they can put on the table.

They can keep a Maester their own house if they like but I'm not voting to do anything positive for that institution unless it is to completely gut it with an Imperial (and Inquisitorial) full blown audit and then fold it into the Scholarum wholesale.

They can keep the Citadel name as a geographic location/landmark.
 
@Deliste, I'm going to keep Retrocognition in mind for if we decide on more Divination. It might be useful, but the spell texts says the further back you look, the less detailed the impressions become. Looking back over four centuries, at a minimum, but more likely millennia, isn't going to give us much detail.
 
Deliste said:
As you and Goldfish both have already noted there is no impactful action we could take (or not) for them that would be considered even remotely worth what they can put on the table.

They can keep a Maester their own house if they like but I'm not voting to do anything positive for that institution unless it is to completely gut it with an Imperial (and Inquisitorial) full blown audit and then fold it into the Scholarum wholesale.

They can keep the Citadel name as a geographic location/landmark.
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Yeah... honestly, with as bad a bargaining position as they have, I think we should probably just assume the Maesters as part of the opposing forces when we invade straight out, with no negotiations prompted from their end at the outset, and they will prosecute a campaign of terror with 100% near certainty at home or abroad in our own territory. And I only say that instead of outright allying with the Lannisters, merely because Tywin won't trust them without certain considerations being made and vice versa, neither side which will compromise on them, and both sides arrogant enough to believe they have the eventual upperhand on those negotiations/so long as the other side fights your enemy for you, you can kick that can down the road to deal with later.
 
Crake said:
Yeah... honestly, with as bad a bargaining position as they have, I think we should probably just assume the Maesters as part of the opposing forces when we invade straight out, with no negotiations prompted from their end at the outset, and they will prosecute a campaign of terror with 100% near certainty at home or abroad in our own territory. And I only say that instead of outright allying with the Lannisters, merely because Tywin won't trust them without certain considerations being made and vice versa, neither side which will compromise on them, and both sides arrogant enough to believe they have the eventual upperhand on those negotiations/so long as the other side fights your enemy for you, you can kick that can down the road to deal with later.
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I thought that whole magic/ anti-Targaryen conspiracy was only limited to small sect and a single faction? Not that I'd advise for Viserys to just leave them be.

On another note, just got done with the Hedgeknight books. Bloodraven was really OP even before he became the Three Eyed Raven.
 
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Agent Whiskers said:
I thought that whole magic/ anti-Targaryen conspiracy was only limited to small sect and a single faction? Not that I'd advise for Viserys to just leave them be.

On another note, just got done with the Hedgeknight books. Bloodraven was really OP even before he became the Three Eyed Raven.
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Problem is, they can point out all of the above points that I mentioned to fringe factions with spellcasters in the Citadel, and all of them would have cause to oppose our invasion. Even in the most hopeful scenario, the spread of our institutions of higher learning upon which they have no stake or hand in administrating or controlling signals the end of the Citadel's influence and power as we know it. They would be merely one voice, corroded by the passage of years and dwindling funding, among many.

An unacceptable end state for more than just the Targ conspiracy.
 
While I am well aware there's a shitload of political operators there, we can't discount that the vast majority of the Citadel is made up of, if no Sam-like guys, just plain normal people with a scholarly bent, trying to make their living as best as they can, as the Citadel isn't usually anyone's first choice, it also likely isn't the last either.
 
Crake said:
I said not alienate, not bend over backwards for. The Hightowers would do an about face 180 on that stance with all the dirty laundry we have to air on the Citadel, and their current Lord trusts us. So unless Baelor gets fucking merced and replaced by his brother, which Lucan might still be angling for, that route is dead in the water.

But with that in mind perhaps we should be helping Baelor out directly. So far that just involves keeping him alive and cognizant.
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We should probably be semi-regularly checking up on our Westerosi lords just to ensure their safety, or if any of them happen to be having second thoughts due to external pressure from Lannisters or neighboring lords.
 
Duesal said:
We should probably be semi-regularly checking up on our Westerosi lords just to ensure their safety, or if any of them happen to be having second thoughts due to external pressure from Lannisters or neighboring lords.
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I expect that's a common duty for the House of Mirrors.
 
Crake said:
Problem is, they can point out all of the above points that I mentioned to fringe factions with spellcasters in the Citadel, and all of them would have cause to oppose our invasion. Even in the most hopeful scenario, the spread of our institutions of higher learning upon which they have no stake or hand in administrating or controlling signals the end of the Citadel's influence and power as we know it. They would be merely one voice, corroded by the passage of years and dwindling funding, among many.

An unacceptable end state for more than just the Targ conspiracy.
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No reason not to try and schmooze certain influential people and factions. It might be impossible for most, but charisma 34 and diplomacy 48.:V
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
While I am well aware there's a shitload of political operators there, we can't discount that the vast majority of the Citadel is made up of, if no Sam-like guys, just plain normal people with a scholarly bent, trying to make their living as best as they can, as the Citadel isn't usually anyone's first choice, it also likely isn't the last either.
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Hence Audit and Subsumption, the people you describe are in it for the love of knowledge and our institutions plan to facilitate the things they love even better, they are not our enemy and we can prove it to each other easily enough.

One Autumn Leaf said:
All this Citadel talk is making me want to plan a raid on them. Should we put a Spy action on them sometime in the coming months?
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Umbral Spies anyone?
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
While I am well aware there's a shitload of political operators there, we can't discount that the vast majority of the Citadel is made up of, if no Sam-like guys, just plain normal people with a scholarly bent, trying to make their living as best as they can, as the Citadel isn't usually anyone's first choice, it also likely isn't the last either.
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Peoply who just want to be scholars, who want to research, learn or teach will do pretty well in our brave new world.

People who want anyone but Viserys to have a stranglehold on education, medical knowledge and communications much less so.
 
I savor the day someone confronts Viserys in politics without immediately leaping to moral equivocation of his motivations and actually slaps us in the face with some realpolitik for a change.

It'll probably end up happening in Yi Ti, so that'll be nice.
 
FOR EXAMPLE. The very best way for the Azure Emperor Bu Gai to get us on-sides in a motherfuckin' jiff would be to ratify a treaty in the name of the entire Azure Empire which he barely controls.

Then play the warlords off each other and us as he understands the culture, personalities and entanglements infinitely better than we do. Even if we try to arrange him into a puppet, he could get us to do the heavy lifting, and with our lack of understanding of what drives different agents, end up as the one actually in control once we've exerted our influence over an area in his name. He could do this very simply using lateral movements. So long as he from the start establishes a pattern of making a change and reasserting his authority through complex formal social interactions and ritual, he could convey a lot of information through a lot of actors who themselves exert their own influence. And if this is a true warring states period, it is plausible we'd only be able to track that by embedding Inquisition outposts throughout the Golden Empire.

FACT #2: We do not have the ability to do this. This isn't even a matter of overextending ourselves, the espionage apparatus is busy consolidating western Essos, and time sensitive factors like Tiamat and her Blackfyre catspaw make it pertinent to gain the benefits of Bu Gai's legitimacy, from which stems boons such as trade and knowledge, both things we could really use, whereas the dream of exerting any kind of military influence over the area is so far distant to embedding deep-cover spies that it's not even in visual range of it.
 
Crake said:
FOR EXAMPLE. The very best way for the Azure Emperor Bu Gai to get us on-sides in a motherfuckin' jiff would be to ratify a treaty in the name of the entire Azure Empire which he barely controls.

Then play the warlords off each other and us as he understands the culture, personalities and entanglements infinitely better than we do. Even if we try to arrange him into a puppet, he could get us to do the heavy lifting, and with our lack of understanding of what drives different agents, end up as the one actually in control once we've exerted our influence over an area in his name. He could do this very simply using lateral movements. So long as he from the start establishes a pattern of making a change and reasserting his authority through complex formal social interactions and ritual, he could convey a lot of information through a lot of actors who themselves exert their own influence. And if this is a true warring states period, it is plausible we'd only be able to track that by embedding Inquisition outposts throughout the Golden Empire.

FACT #2: We do not have the ability to do this. This isn't even a matter of overextending ourselves, the espionage apparatus is busy consolidating western Essos, and time sensitive factors like Tiamat and her Blackfyre catspaw make it pertinent to gain the benefits of Bu Gai's legitimacy, from which stems boons such as trade and knowledge, both things we could really use, whereas the dream of exerting any kind of military influence over the area is so far distant to embedding deep-cover spies that it's not even in visual range of it.
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Yep. This is why dreams of conquering the area mainly involve diplomancing local powers into swearing fealty and putting together a piecemeal province of the Imperium bit by bit. We are nowhere near being able to exert any actual military influence that far east. We've still got... Qohor, Norvos, and Lorath to deal with for the Free Cities (especially Qohor), the Sarnori City States which are a mess of undead activity thanks to Tiamat Cultists meddling, Slaver's Bay which Relath and Yrael should be jointly gearing up to subjugate very soon, and then the mess which is Qarth with there chronomancer warlocks and their corrupted ghost grass growing outside their House of the Undying.

This is why the Grand Expedition Fleet is so important, I suppose. It allows us to steadily diplomance all of the important trading ports and soften them up to the idea of voluntarily joining the Imperium in the future. Vahar, for example, literally has the leader in Valaena's debt for saving his life from his bloodthirsty sister, with extremely friendly relations with the Imperium because of it. We could probably flip them after a while of consolidating our power west of the Bone Mountains if we give them a good enough trade deal.

@DragonParadox, will the fleet be visiting Port Moraq and Zabhad next? I've been waiting for the chance to buy a ton of ivory along with a dozen or so elephants.

Anyway, yeah. Diplomancing is king here. Military efforts are tied up, especially in the face of the looming Deep Ones invasion. Maybe we should have Relath put a bulk order of those aberration detection stones for every single city or something.
 
Crake said:
FOR EXAMPLE. The very best way for the Azure Emperor Bu Gai to get us on-sides in a motherfuckin' jiff would be to ratify a treaty in the name of the entire Azure Empire which he barely controls.

Then play the warlords off each other and us as he understands the culture, personalities and entanglements infinitely better than we do. Even if we try to arrange him into a puppet, he could get us to do the heavy lifting, and with our lack of understanding of what drives different agents, end up as the one actually in control once we've exerted our influence over an area in his name. He could do this very simply using lateral movements. So long as he from the start establishes a pattern of making a change and reasserting his authority through complex formal social interactions and ritual, he could convey a lot of information through a lot of actors who themselves exert their own influence. And if this is a true warring states period, it is plausible we'd only be able to track that by embedding Inquisition outposts throughout the Golden Empire.

FACT #2: We do not have the ability to do this. This isn't even a matter of overextending ourselves, the espionage apparatus is busy consolidating western Essos, and time sensitive factors like Tiamat and her Blackfyre catspaw make it pertinent to gain the benefits of Bu Gai's legitimacy, from which stems boons such as trade and knowledge, both things we could really use, whereas the dream of exerting any kind of military influence over the area is so far distant to embedding deep-cover spies that it's not even in visual range of it.
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Eh, we just do what any encroaching empire does.

Find a knowledgeable subjugated minority group, put them in charge and give them the military backing to go with the politicking.

They know that if they ever lose our support they'll be torn to shreds.

A story as old as time.
 
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