Actions which we are going to do anyway as we seek to make our city more clean and beautiful. Also as we seek to honor the gods.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Sure, but the effect is multiplied with Nea Kymai than without.
New Kymai would be additive not multiplicative as it's a secondary source. I'm not sure what makes you think sending the Oracle to new kymai and making Eretria more clean would create synergy there
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I think thats not really a relevant argument here because we never hoarded the advantages for ourselves. We are not taking in back breaking tributes like the Athenians, nor are we reliant on our allies for the bulk of our armies and then act contemptuous towards like them Sparta.
We made the Linean Law explicitly to strengthen the league, and made very recent legal chances that empowered the league at our own expanse.
So its very annoying for people to go ''Oh no selfish overlord'' over the possibility of making a singular Eretria First decision once when the rest of our moves were the opposite. Its making a mountain out of a anthill.
There can be a middle ground between being super generous and being super dragon hoard greedy. Taking the Oracle who is fine with going with us, is hardly going to push us into the latter.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Isn't "let's be ahistorical" usually the rallying cry of the thread? One of the arguments against the festival of persephone was that it wasn't unique enough.
Taking one action to ensure we remain the cultural center of the league does not doom us to forever be a tyrant.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
That is entirely unfair, no where in Godwinsons post did they ever imply that we would remain tyrants forever.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I would agree, but he was essentially making a slippery slope argument.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Having two prominent cultural centers is multiplicative over having one, in that having two such centers means you can reach a much larger territory.
Right now, the influence of the Divine Marriage is basically limited to the territory of the Iapyges and the Greek colonies along the coast of that territory. It's not going to spread far past that because the other Italiote city-states aren't much interested (and have their own special cults), and because the Adriatic crossing is too dangerous for communities on the east coast and west coast to be fully tied together culturally. Influence from mainland Greece will always be competitive with influence from the west coast of the Italian peninsula.
If we were consistently pursuing an 'Antipatrid' or 'Exorid' strategy of strengthening our position among the Italiote Greeks or the native people of our own region above all else, making Eretria a super-center of religion and culture within Epulia specifically would kind of work.
But with a 'Drakonid' strategy of founding a league of colonies that gives us a lock on the Adriatic sea trade, we need strong allies and pro-Eretrian cultural centers on the far side of the Adriatic. Otherwise, we're going to have a lot more trouble sustaining our own influence over that side of the Adriatic, in the face of competition from mainland Greeks.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The post pretty clearly equates keeping the oracle with embarking on the path of tyranny.
EDIT
After some consideration, I feel like I too have been taking part in the the slippery slope fallacy. I might not have been using it as a basis for my arguments, but I feel like i've been running under the assumption that allowing the oracle to be given away would somehow lead to a future where eretria would somehow never be willing to defend it's place at the head of the league at the expense of other members. Recognizing that I am biased, and already being uncertain, there's only one fair option.
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
Damn you all.
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DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
It's not unreasonable to make a slippery slope argument when you are literally rolling down a slippery slope. Letting New Kymai flout the Linean Laws already is leading a lot of people directly to this decision to export the oracle there. I can only imagine having the oracle in New Kymai will lead to more decisions where we have to placate them extra hard in the future.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Why would we have to placate Kymai?
You're still thinking that we want the oracle in Kymai to placate them. This is really wrong, and it would be nice if you talked to us more, instead of spending all your energy on this strawman.
fasquardon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
That is going to be the case if we want to enlarge the league, ever.
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
Maybe you don't think you're placating them now, but you sure will be down the line. And multiple people have already said that not having the Linean Laws has had the direct effect of distancing the culture of New Kymai from us, which is encouraging people to give up the oracle to drag them back.
Talking to you more isn't going to let you magically change my mind. I was one of those few that voted against Kymai in the first place, and the way the subsequent votes have gone has convinced me I was right. I don't think Eretria needs to dedicate everything to pushing the dream of a vast league on the same scale as the ones Athens or Sparta has. Right now, I think the benefits of an oracle, not just culturally, but strategically, outweigh such far flung future concerns. In that I recognize that I'm divergent from the attitude of most of the thread, but you aren't going to just convince me that your utility function is better than mine.
Well, again, are you actually looking at what I'm saying? Because I'm not actually trying to change your mind on where the oracle goes. I'm pretty close to being in the middle on this question. But, I am really annoyed by what I see as bad arguments from people on both sides of this issue, because they push my emotional buttons to turn me vociferously against the very things they are supposed to advocate. And unfortunately, there are more arguments that are annoying me coming from your side of things.
So my aim is not to change your argument on the oracle, my aim is to show you and others that you're really undermining the very thing you are championing.
I guess my aim here could be getting obscured by my passion and my coming in more often on one particular side of this debate, so I don't really blame you if you've missed it. But that's where I'm actually coming from.
Eretria having the oracle would be cool and powerful. It's a position which can be argued on its own merits, without painting the alternative as a thing it isn't.
fasquardon
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
So...how long does it take to cross the Adriatic once there is a ring of Epulian League cities and Eretria friendly polities around the sea to act as...train stations in a hourney from Nea Kymai to Eretria? Because...I think there is a possible compromise with the Sybil problem.
@Cetashwayo, how does...a Persephone agreement sound to you as a user motion?
The Sybil spends 4 years time in Nea Kymai. The next 4 years she spends it in Eretria.
What do you think folks? What if we make a League-wide religious festival out of this?
@Cetashwayo, how does...a Persephone agreement sound to you as a user motion?
The Sybil spends 4 years time in Nea Kymai. The next 4 years she spends it in Eretria.
What do you think folks? What if we make a League-wide religious festival out of this?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To be fair, giving kymai the oracle does make them the largest and most culturally important city in the area. If anyone is equipped to make their own league with blackjack and hookers at some point, it would be kymai with the oracle.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
How and why would they make their own league?
A) They would have to contend with us, and looking at say, Gela, which is the spiritual heart of Sicily, they still look very small beneath the shadow of Syracuse. If they attempt to break away they would have to contend with us, whom they have just upset.
B) Assume, somehow, that they managed to beat us. They would then have to contend with Korinth without our navies and our armies to protect them. A city of their size would not stand a chance against Korinth.
C) Other Barbaroi. The Daorsi are nice now, but things can change. They can become warlike, or some other band could replace them. Their future is not guaranteed if they try to go it alone.
And really, why would they?
We saved them from certain death at our own expense, granted them the Sybil, gave them a colony in a relatively peaceful location with relatively peaceful neighbors. Should they ever be threatened, our armies and our navies will protect them along with whatever hoplites they can gather together. They have the privilege of bringing grievance and issue before us in the Synderion, they have the veto over us, and have been granted exception to the Linean laws.
If they break away from us or form their own league then they are on their own, just like they were when Kymai fell. The only real reason I could see them being willing and able to go it alone is if something happened to us, and at that point we would have much bigger issues than keeping the league together.
If they manage to beat us or otherwise leave our league and form their own out of our colonies and the other eastern league cities, then they contend with Korinth. Except this time they dont have our hoplites or our triremes to help them fight the Korinthians, who will sail up and force them to bend the knee. I guarantee you they will not be able to extract such privilege out of the Korinthians, who will proceed to apply boot to face and squeeze them for all they are worth.
All it costs them is tribute to us, and a contribution of levies for our army and our navy, and seceding us as the foremost city of the league. It is a cheap price in my mind. So I don't see why people are worried that they will suddenly break away and form their own league or eat our colonies.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Obviously not NOW. In the future, when Korinth isn't a problem and the gratitude has faded.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
What are we going to fight about?
Nea Kymai's interests are securing its landward frontier, and in sharing the benefits of landward trade. They are likely to defer to us in League matters; and the more generous we are to them now, the more they will be inclined to defer to our leadership in the future. Most of the other elements that could cause a deterioration in our relationship are under our control, so long as we don't exploit the Kymaians.
What specific points do you anticipate will cause conflict in the far future?
- Location
- Southern Virginia
And a Kymai that doesn't care about the Divine Marriage is much more likely to bolt, which is what @Cetashwayo has repeatedly said on the matter. Allowing them to keep the Sibyl does not make Nea Kymai a threat to Eretria, it binds the League more closely to us. That's like one of the biggest advantages of the option, so we do not have to worry about a decade down the road getting "psyke it was the trap option all along."
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
The whole problem with the far future is that it's difficult to predict what problems or disagreements will come up. The good way to plan for the far future is to limit actual vulnerabilities and not rely on unchanging motives, or floaty ideas like gratitude. I don't believe that spreading the Divine Marriage to Kymai is the sort of 100% slam dunk guarantee of besties forever that everyone seems to be claiming it is. One thing humans are great at is finding reasons to fight.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I mean, sure, eventually, given time. We wont remain prominent forever. Eventually even Rome stopped being the capital city, and Mediolaunum, or Ravenna took over that role. Eventually Byzantion turns into Constantinople, City of the Worlds Desire. Eventually Sparta turns into nothing more than some lonely columns and overturned stones.
If Nea Kymai ever eclipses us, it will not be within the time frame relevant to this quest. But nothing they can do right now, in the near or even distant future of this quest, is able to threaten us or our position.
Gratitude is nice, but it eventually fades. But that is not our goal.
Our goal is to have similar interests, and to make servitude to our league more palatable by making their practices in commonality with our own. By having similar interests, and things that they can lose if they leave, it makes them unwilling to actually leave or move towards that goal. There is nothing that they can gain from leaving the league that they cannot gain within it, and much to lose besides.
By being generous, by showing them that in order to gain what they want, they must give us what we want, we bind them to us and make them unwilling to leave. The only thing Korinth has to offer them is their lives, and the only lever Korinth has to apply to them is the tip of the spear. But in such a situation there is more for us to worry about. This goes on until they can only imagine their existence as one in the context of their presence within the league. Korinth has nothing to offer them as temptation, and so the only thing left to Korinth is the way of force.
But we are also fostering a relationship with Athens, who we can use, for now, as a counterweight to Korinthian ambitions. While we might be unable to fight Korinth, Athens is very able to fight Korinth.
If you are going to talk about Nea Kymai leaving, something has to change in our relationship in order for such an event to be possible. Simply giving them the Sybil is not enough to plant the seed of competition or secession. There has to be a specific reason for them to want to go it on their own, for them to be able to go it on their own. Simply having the Sybil is not enough, as the Samnites and Oscans have demonstrated.
They need numbers, which they wont have as they have refused the Linean Laws. They need money, and it will take time for them to set up. They need allies, which they wont have except through the league and what we organize on their behalf.
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