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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Satar said:
No, but if Korinth isn't being bottled up by Athens, it is going to contest our slowly growing hold on the Adriatic, and it may even do so immediately-- "beeline" towards that goal, to use your terminology. That is a fight we currently cannot win. If the situation in the Adriatic devolves into war, we have a good chance of losing political control of Nea Kymai. In fact, we've even seen the blueprint for how such a conflict might erupt with Kerkyra!

To be honest, I'm getting real Kerkyra deja vu off your vote. You're voting to send the oligarchs-- who have existing tensions with the rest of Kymai, to Nea Kymai. Simultaneously you're voting to put a culture & prestige generation machine (the oracle) in Nea Kymai, making it an even more tempting target. Furthermore, you know that we don't have the current naval capacity to fend off Korinth and our agreement with Taras prevents us from throwing our lot in with Athens.

So the realistic course of events (if Korinth makes a play for the Adriatic) is that they will rouse the oligarchs against the people of Nea Kymai, overthrowing the government. Then the Oracle will become a Korinthian possession in fact if not in name. And unlike the Athenians, we don't have the navy to koolaid man our way through Korinth's navy and then kill off the oligarchs. It will be a shitshow.
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This entire contrived scenario ignores that Corinth isn't covered by the Peace of Nicias so the Athenian Navy has nothing better to do than sail out from Kerkyra and taunt the Corinthians to come out and play. Like seriously right now launching a major expedition into the Adriatic is the best way for Corinth to get its navy slaughtered so we should only be so lucky...
 
Deadly Snark said:
Which thing? The growth of cultural unity and potential spread of the divine marriage to mainland hellas? The latter of which certainly isnt guaranteed with competing cults and oracles. The former of which I argued was dependent on Kymai and its cult of divine marriage to survive to tribulations.

Eretria isnt 100% safe. But it is much safer as one of the biggest cities around with strong defenses and armies.
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Even if you wanted to put the Oracle in Nea Kymai, why on earth would you also send the fucking oligarchs there? Have we not just seen Korinth manipulate the oligarchs of a city into rising up against its elected government? Sapling makes some sense if you don't send the oligarchs. But by also sending the oligarchs it's sowing the seeds for Kerkyra: V2.

Professor Vesca said:
Sure, but what would the Korinthians do with the Sybil? Make her take back her words? You can ignore the oracle, you can ignore the Auguries, but you cannot make them say what you want them to say.
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One, just holding the oracle itself is a mark of prestige. Doubly so for having taken it away from us, from Eretria. It would be a major blow to Eretrian prestige in Italia and Sicily, exactly the regions where losing face could most badly hamper diplomacy.

Secondly, the Sybil is a political figure. She's looking at the situation as best she can too. If she thinks the wind is blowing against Eretria-- and it will be if we're fighting Korinth-- she'll make whatever political decisions best comport with the continued wellbeing of her institution.
 
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Satar said:
Even if you wanted to put the Oracle in Nea Kymai, why on earth would you also send the fucking oligarchs there? Have we not just seen Korinth manipulate the oligarchs of a city into rising up against its elected government? Sapling makes some sense if you don't send the oligarchs. But by also sending the oligarchs it's sowing the seeds for Kerkyra: V2.



One, just holding the oracle itself is a mark of prestige. Doubly so for having taken it away from us, from Eretria. It would be a major loss of face to Eretrian prestige in Italia and Sicily, exactly the regions where losing face could most badly hamper diplomacy.

Secondly, the Sybil is a political figure. She's looking at the situation as best she can too. If she thinks the wind is blowing against Eretria-- and it will be if we're fighting Korinth-- she'll make whatever political decisions best comport with the continued wellbeing of her institution.
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Again, what do you think the Korinthians, or these hypothetical future oligarchs of Nea Kymai are going to do to the Sybil? Deprive her of funding? The most respected oracle in all of Italia? They would be just as accomplished to burn their temples as well and give their treasuries over to the Korinthians.

So they cant make her say what they want her to say, and they cannot deprive her of funding or else loose the prestige of having the Sybil in the first place.

As for the Oligarchs... hrmm, what is the tally for the Oligarch vote?
 
Deadly Snark said:
Which thing? The growth of cultural unity and potential spread of the divine marriage to mainland hellas? The latter of which certainly isnt guaranteed with competing cults and oracles. The former of which I argued was dependent on Kymai and its cult of divine marriage to survive to tribulations.
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OK, who has talked about spreading the divine marriage to actual mainland Hellas? All I've seen is Cavalier getting his geographic terms wrong when talking about spreading the cult to the small Illyrian colonies.

And we have been flat out told that the Sybil in Nea Kymai would result in the cult spreading much faster, especially within the Eretrian league.

You casting doubt is going directly against the word of the QM here.

fasquardon
 
@Cetashwayo
Assuming that we pick A Sapling of Wood, how likely is it for Nea Kymai to adopt a system somewhat similar to Eretria's demes as a means of reconciling their would-be oligarchs with democratic government?
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Jul 9, 2019 at 4:53 PM, finished with 6514 posts and 87 votes.
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fasquardon said:
OK, who has talked about spreading the divine marriage to actual mainland Hellas? All I've seen is Cavalier getting his geographic terms wrong when talking about spreading the cult to the small Illyrian colonies.

And we have been flat out told that the Sybil in Nea Kymai would result in the cult spreading much faster, especially within the Eretrian league.

You casting doubt is going directly against the word of the QM here.

fasquardon
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A bunch of people. Did you miss those posts?

No I acknowledged that. We are reading his statements differently.

You believe that having the Sybil there will be a constant passive bonus to the growth no matter what.

I believe that said passive bonus will be affected both positively and negatively by external factors, which includes it potentially going out before it achieves the critical stage see my other arguments.
 
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Deadly Snark said:
A bunch of people. Did you miss those posts?

No I acknowledged that. We are reading his statements differently.

You believe that having the Sybil there will be a constant passive bonus to the growth no matter what.

I believe that said passive bonus will be affected both positively and negatively by external factors, which includes it potentially going out before it achieves the critical stage see my other arguments.
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And on the gripping claw, placing the Sybil in Eretria also means that we have yet another diplomatic thing we need to worry about. We would have to do all the work ourselves, spreading our overworked diplomatic actions even thinner than they already are, and if we neglect to spend actions, then the primary bonus of having the Sybil in our city, the ability to spread the Divine Marriage, withers on the vine.

I don't think its worth it.

A) Korinth while they are probably counting the days that they can come over and pick a fight with us, still has Athens to contend with. Korinth was not included in the peace, so the Athenian Navy is basically wandering around the Ionian Sea looking for them with the express purpose of punching them in the face.

B) Nea Kymai is far away from them. So even if they manage to dodge the Athenian Navy, their fleet being away would leave Korinth itself exposed to an invasion from the sea.

C) To counter both these issues, they would need to leave some fleet at home to deter the Athenians, so it is likely that any expedition they send our way will be of a size that we stand a chance of defeating. Especially in light of our increase of our navy.
 
Professor Vesca said:
And on the gripping claw, placing the Sybil in Eretria also means that we have yet another diplomatic thing we need to worry about. We would have to do all the work ourselves, spreading our overworked diplomatic actions even thinner than they already are, and if we neglect to spend actions, then the primary bonus of having the Sybil in our city, the ability to spread the Divine Marriage, withers on the vine.

I don't think its worth it.
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I think it's worth noting that while all the major oracles brought prosperity to their home cities, said home cities were generally pretty weak, and were sheltered by a major power (who derived prestige from being the protector and got first dibs for meetings with the oracle). In other words, we wouldn't be the first city to choose to specialize in being powerful while keeping a major religious centre under our thumbs. Because it certainly wasn't unthinkable to move an oracle if one so desired.

fasquardon
 
Godwinson said:
@Cetashwayo
Assuming that we pick A Sapling of Wood, how likely is it for Nea Kymai to adopt a system somewhat similar to Eretria's demes as a means of reconciling their would-be oligarchs with democratic government?
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Well, that might emerge naturally. Obviously the first challenge will be settling in, and class conflict may emerge after that. It'll all depend on how things go from there. Certainly the Kymaian democrats may take inspiration from Eretria.
 
fasquardon said:
I think it's worth noting that while all the major oracles brought prosperity to their home cities, said home cities were generally pretty weak, and were sheltered by a major power (who derived prestige from being the protector and got first dibs for meetings with the oracle). In other words, we wouldn't be the first city to choose to specialize in being powerful while keeping a major religious centre under our thumbs. Because it certainly wasn't unthinkable to move an oracle if one so desired.
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That's a good point.

Now that I think about it, as far as I know, most major power centers in the Greek world usually didn't "hoard" religious authority unto themselves either. Sometimes a religious center (like Gela on Syracuse) becomes powerful and prosperous as a side-effect of its cultural status, but the reverse usually isn't true.

As the QM pointed out...

Collecting other cities' temples and religious institutions in a Carmen Sandiego-esque Grand Theft Religion mentality is more of a Roman thing.
 
[X] [Motion] Status Quo. The Xenoparakletor will choose whoever they wish to accompany them on foreign missions.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

I've been giving this a lot of thought but ultimately I see much greater benefits in having the Oracle settle in Eretria.

While it would be useful to have Nea Kymai embrace the Cult of the Divine Marriage from the get-go, it's not a necessity and the benefits to Eretria that would be lost make the cost simply too high. In my opinion, all the things that having the Oracle in Nea Kymai would provide are much more easily gained through other means than the things that can be gained by having her in Eretria.

Once the Nea Kymai is settled and they're part of the League, the Cult - which is already spreading and growing within the league - will obviously take root in their City, yes it will take a little longer but it will happen due to, for example, the travel between the cities for trade, the League gatherings, the League-wide athletic events held at Eretria. And if we feel it isn't spreading fast enough we can take actions to speed it up. Also, it's important to remember that many of the actions we take for other reasons will also spread the Cult throughout the League so it's not as if we're going to have to 'sacrifice' actions to get this done. Building the new temple complex, for example, we didn't do that to spread the Cults reputation, but it did.

Additionally, while we are colonising the eastern coast of the Adriatic in order to fully dominate it, our primary focus has been and is likely to continue to be Italia. And so to me, the benefits Eretria gains in Italia from having a famous Oracle far outweigh a speedier spread of the Cult in the East. We have here an Oracle already famous with the various tribes and cultures within Italy, how many times have people bemoaned our lack of any diplomatic connection with many of the interior tribes? Well, here's a ready-made way to not only gain those connections but gain them in a positive way.

Furthermore, the extra passive benefits to Eretria itself are substantial and I feel have been somewhat (although not entirely) overlooked in this discussion. Greater moral, political and religious prestige and authority, pilgrims journeying to the city, the added justification the Oracle can give our actions, and again a greater and faster spreading of the Cult within Italia where the majority of our focus rests.

Lastly, it's worth remembering that as the League itself grows it will become more difficult for Eretria to dominate it's focus and direction as we previously had*, this will be especially true with the addition of established cities as we've now started to do (people have even talked about adding Metapontion to the League in the future, although that is almost certainly a long way off). Cetashwayo has already mentioned that some within the League are already looking at Kymai as being a potential counterbalance to Eretria (if not right away then in the future). With that being the case - and a revered Oracle being as rare and powerful as they are - the diplomatic authority, the soft power, that Eretria stands to gain is of massive value going forward.

*I'm not, before anyone says otherwise, suggesting control of the League will be wrested away from us but we have seen and will continue to see some pushback from the other members.
 
HastyGaming said:
[X] [Motion] Status Quo. The Xenoparakletor will choose whoever they wish to accompany them on foreign missions.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

I've been giving this a lot of thought but ultimately I see much greater benefits in having the Oracle settle in Eretria.

While it would be useful to have Nea Kymai embrace the Cult of the Divine Marriage from the get-go, it's not a necessity and the benefits to Eretria that would be lost make the cost simply too high. In my opinion, all the things that having the Oracle in Nea Kymai would provide are much more easily gained through other means than the things that can be gained by having her in Eretria.

Once the Nea Kymai is settled and they're part of the League, the Cult - which is already spreading and growing within the league - will obviously take root in their City, yes it will take a little longer but it will happen due to, for example, the travel between the cities for trade, the League gatherings, the League-wide athletic events held at Eretria. And if we feel it isn't spreading fast enough we can take actions to speed it up. Also, it's important to remember that many of the actions we take for other reasons will also spread the Cult throughout the League so it's not as if we're going to have to 'sacrifice' actions to get this done. Building the new temple complex, for example, we didn't do that to spread the Cults reputation, but it did.

Additionally, while we are colonising the eastern coast of the Adriatic in order to fully dominate it, our primary focus has been and is likely to continue to be Italia. And so to me, the benefits Eretria gains in Italia from having a famous Oracle far outweigh a speedier spread of the Cult in the East. We have here an Oracle already famous with the various tribes and cultures within Italy, how many times have people bemoaned our lack of any diplomatic connection with many of the interior tribes? Well, here's a ready-made way to not only gain those connections but gain them in a positive way.

Furthermore, the extra passive benefits to Eretria itself are substantial and I feel have been somewhat (although not entirely) overlooked in this discussion. Greater moral, political and religious prestige and authority, pilgrims journeying to the city, the added justification the Oracle can give our actions, and again a greater and faster spreading of the Cult within Italia where the majority of our focus rests.

Lastly, it's worth remembering that as the League itself grows it will become more difficult for Eretria to dominate it's focus and direction as we previously had*, this will be especially true with the addition of established cities as we've now started to do (people have even talked about adding Metapontion to the League in the future, although that is almost certainly a long way off). Cetashwayo has already mentioned that some within the League are already looking at Kymai as being a potential counterbalance to Eretria (if not right away then in the future). With that being the case - and a revered Oracle being as rare and powerful as they are - the diplomatic authority, the soft power, that Eretria stands to gain is of massive value going forward.

*I'm not, before anyone says otherwise, suggesting control of the League will be wrested away from us but we have seen and will continue to see some pushback from the other members.
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There is no indication that the cult is spreading within the league, anymore in as much as it is expanding via colonies we found at our expense. If we plan to include other cities in the league, Melaina Kerkyra, Epidauros, Epidamnos, Kerkyra, Apollonia, as examples, we need the sybil in Nea Kymai so that it can spread the cult to those cities and bind them closer to us.

Also we need the Sybil in Nea kymai if we plan to spread the cult beyond the borders of the league. Such a shared cultural touchstone is necessary if we want to form our pan-italian league.
 
Professor Vesca said:
There is no indication that the cult is spreading within the league, anymore in as much as it is expanding via colonies we found at our expense. If we plan to include other cities in the league, Melaina Kerkyra, Epidauros, Epidamnos, Kerkyra, Apollonia, as examples, we need the sybil in Nea Kymai so that it can spread the cult to those cities and bind them closer to us.
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That's not true, Cetashwayo has mentioned that the Cult is spreading within the core Epulian member cities and they were not founded by Eretria, likely because they've been more exposed to Eretria over a longer period of time. It hasn't spread as deeply within the Adriatic member cities because they've literally just been founded, in part by metics who came to Eretria then left right away, and because we had limited dealings with Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros up to this point. Now that they're part of the League it will spread to them, more slowly than with the Oracle, but it will happen.
 
Professor Vesca said:
There is no indication that the cult is spreading within the league, anymore in as much as it is expanding via colonies we found at our expense. If we plan to include other cities in the league, Melaina Kerkyra, Epidauros, Epidamnos, Kerkyra, Apollonia, as examples, we need the sybil in Nea Kymai so that it can spread the cult to those cities and bind them closer to us.

Also we need the Sybil in Nea kymai if we plan to spread the cult beyond the borders of the league. Such a shared cultural touchstone is necessary if we want to form our pan-italian league.
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Well... I feel you're overstating the case here. The first part is correct (indeed, the indications are that the Divine Marriage cult has been shrinking as the Herakles cult has swelled with success), but we don't need the Sybil in Nea Kymai to spread the cult, we could do it if we dedicated actions to making it more appealing. It's just that the Sybil going to Nea Kymai greatly speeds things along (and doesn't need us to explicitly spend so many actions on the task).

fasquardon
 
Deadly Snark said:
I would hardly equate sheltering an Oracle who is okay with being in Eretria to the Roman practice of ritualized god looting.
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I was speaking more broadly than just this specific instance.

Basically, in general powerful Greek city-states seem to have been content to allow other city-states to be the prominent religious centers, rather than amassing religious dominance themselves.

Or such is my impression.
 
HastyGaming said:
That's not true, Cetashwayo has mentioned that the Cult is spreading within the core Epulian member cities and they were not founded by Eretria, likely because they've been more exposed to Eretria over a longer period of time. It hasn't spread as deeply within the Adriatic member cities because they've literally just been founded, in part by metics who came to Eretria then left right away, and because we had limited dealings with Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros up to this point. Now that they're part of the League it will spread to them, more slowly than with the Oracle, but it will happen.
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The core cities are also a part of our league for much longer, and are closer to us geographically. Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros in particular did not take the oath of the marriage seriously, and wanted to swear upon Zeus.
 
Professor Vesca said:
There is no indication that the cult is spreading within the league, anymore in as much as it is expanding via colonies we found at our expense. If we plan to include other cities in the league, Melaina Kerkyra, Epidauros, Epidamnos, Kerkyra, Apollonia, as examples, we need the sybil in Nea Kymai so that it can spread the cult to those cities and bind them closer to us.

Also we need the Sybil in Nea kymai if we plan to spread the cult beyond the borders of the league. Such a shared cultural touchstone is necessary if we want to form our pan-italian league.
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It It failed to spread because we had a lack of cultural buildings, now that we have the Hill of divine marriage and if we add the Oracle we shall be fine
 
Professor Vesca said:
The core cities are also a part of our league for much longer, and are closer to us geographically.
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Yes but the point I made remains true, the Cult is spreading within the League no doubt in large part because of the League and so your suggestion that the only way it can spread to the cities on the eastern coast of the Adriatic is simply untrue. What begins with ties of culture always leads to more.
Professor Vesca said:
Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros in particular did not take the oath of the marriage seriously, and wanted to swear upon Zeus.
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Of course, and why would they take it seriously now? They've not been exposed to Eretrian culture or the Cult before, but now they're part of the league and will be and the Cult will obviously spread organically... and if we chose to do so we can help it along.
Professor Vesca said:
Yes, if we expend actions on it. Tree of Stone and all that. We have to do more to get more. But we already have so much to do, it is simply more efficient if we allow Kymai to do it for us.
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That strikes me as being untrue. We didn't build the Hill of the Divine Marriage to spread the renown and reputation of the Cult, we did it because the augurs showed the gods were upset. But it did spread the renown and reputation of the Cult.

Likewise, we will take other actions that spread it's reputation because honouring the gods is simply something that's done in this period and is closely tied with improving Eretria's culture which needs to be done. While it's likely that there will be opportunities to specifically spread the reputation of the Cult there will also be actions for other things which also bolster the reputation of the cult and spread its growth as a side effect.
 
HastyGaming said:
Yes but the point I made remains true, the Cult is spreading within the League no doubt in large part because of the League and so your suggestion that the only way it can spread to the cities on the eastern coast of the Adriatic is simply untrue. What begins with ties of culture always leads to more.

Of course, and why would they take it seriously now? They've not been exposed to Eretrian culture or the Cult before, but now they're part of the league and will be and the Cult will obviously spread organically... and if we chose to do so we can help it along.

That strikes me as being untrue. We didn't build the Hill of the Divine Marriage to spread the renown and reputation of the Cult, we did it because the augurs showed the gods were upset. But it did spread the renown and reputation of the Cult.

Likewise, we will take other actions that spread it's reputation because honouring the gods is simply something that's done in this period and is closely tied with improving Eretria's culture which needs to be done. While it's likely that there will be opportunities to specifically spread the reputation of the Cult there will also be actions for other things which also bolster the reputation of the cult and spread its growth as a side effect.
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First of all, the other league cities already took after us after being either founded by us, or within our league for so long. The Hill had nothing to do with it.

Aside from that, I mean, thats kind of my point. We still had to do something to cause the cult to spread. It was big and expensive and forced other things that are necessary for the health of our city financially and medically, such as a harbor or sewers, to get pushed back. Already we are facing a deficit while we build the harbor and embark on this mission to Kymai. While we might not have to do something on the level of the Hill again, we still would have to do things to help encourage the cult to spread on TOP of ensuring that we have naval and trade dominance in the Adriatic and counter moves made by Korinth to unseat us. It is adding another thing we can do when we already have an endless list of things we can do. There is no guarantee we would have time or money to encourage the cult in the new league cities. There is no guarantee that we would be able to do so and it would never spread beyond the league. Every time we bring in a new city, we would have to take actions to try to encourage them to accept the cult, with no guarantee that they would do so. Each action would be a roll, whereas with Nea Kymai it not only spreads to any new cities we bring in on its own, but it also is likely to spready beyond the league as well.

Can you imagine what it would be like if we formed a league of equals with Taras, because they began to accept the Cult? Or Krotone deciding to hitch their cart to our horse?

Syncretism is the heart of any hellenic league. Leagues are primarily religious leagues first and foremost. It would be easier to expand our league with minimal concessions if they already have similar religious views as we do. If the Cult is active within their city they are more likely to seek our protection, with all the obligation and privilege that our league entails. Without Nea Kymai, we would have to expend actions to ensure the cult spreads within their walls, and there would always be that lingering thought that we are doing so for our own cynical ends.

It is easier that they accept the cult on their own, rather than us encouraging them to take it up.
 
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
 
There's an additional point to make here -- trying to hoard every single possible advantage to Eretria alone will weaken the Epulian League with resentment and the weakness of the member cities. If we're going to have a strong league then we will need to make choices that don't immediately benefit Eretria first/only. Sparta and Athens are currently demonstrating the grave weakness of the 'selfish league', where the strongest city seeks their own power first and foremost.
 
What really gets me about @HastyGaming is that he's put forward the core of a good argument and then diverted off into the wishful thinking that we can totally have all the benefits of both choices if we just select the one choice he favors. Yes, the Oracle in Eretria does offer a number of unique benefits and would be very useful if we elected to focus our attention and development on Epulia proper. If we accepted being a land-based Italiote power then the Oracle would be best in Eretria by far.

But just as the benefits of the Oracle in Eretria are unique, so are the benefits of the Oracle in Nea Kymai. First and foremost you're underestimating just what a barrier the dangerous Adriatic crossing places on the exchange of ideas. Eretria has been noted to be weak in its cultural pull, and we dominate the existing Epulian League simply by basis of numbers and our power in a relatively nearby region with few other competitors. Placing the Oracle in Eretria will help build up Eretria but it is then not a Cult Center on the other side of the Adriatic. It will not influence Nea Kymai, or the other colonies on the other side of the Adriatic, and the cult will not escape its current status as a weird Eretrian ethnic cult. @Cetashwayo has already said as much and pretending that we can get just as good a result over a longer period is dishonest. We will be effectively restricting the Divine Marriage to the western portion of the Adriatic already within the Epulian League as the "Eretrian cult" absent some other rare opportunity - building a spectacular stadium and another big temple in Eretria will not bridge that divide over the Adriatic. Only the Sibyl in Nea Kymai has that potential.

So while we can't replicate the unique advantages of the Oracle being in Eretria, we can't replicate the unique advantages of the Oracle being in Nea Kymai either. It's a zero sum choice between strengthening Eretria the polis or Eretria as the leader of a cultural union.
 
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