Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[NuclearConsensus]

At this point, I think it's safe to say that these trees, whether they be stone or wood, are actually offshoots of the Apple of Discord, handed to us by the gods for some slight real or imagined, given how divided people have been over this.

 

[Professor Vesca]

You have cursed us @Cetashwayo ! We are undone! You have given us riches, power, respect, and privilege and it has undone us! With a mere act of benevolence you have destroyed us! Oh cruel god! Oh fickle divine! Are you not happy at the chaos you have wrought? Will you never be pleased until even the paving stones of our fair polis are torn up from their place in the dirt and cast about?

I propose we sacrifice an ox to the cruel @Cetashwayo that we might appease it and prevent this stasis from befalling us in the future.

 

[racnor]

I mean, sure, eventually, given time. We wont remain prominent forever. Eventually even Rome stopped being the capital city, and Mediolaunum, or Ravenna took over that role. Eventually Byzantion turns into Constantinople, City of the Worlds Desire. Eventually Sparta turns into nothing more than some lonely columns and overturned stones.

If Nea Kymai ever eclipses us, it will not be within the time frame relevant to this quest. But nothing they can do right now, in the near or even distant future of this quest, is able to threaten us or our position.

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This is exactly the attitude that I thought I was imagining. Screw the future, it's not in the timeframe of the quest!

[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].

Back to stone I guess.

 

[Professor Vesca]

This is exactly the attitude that I thought I was imagining. Screw the future, it's not in the timeframe of the quest!

[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].

Back to stone I guess.

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You are imagining it. My point was nothing lasts forever. Even the longest lasting empire fades away given enough time. If nea kymai lasts long enough, they might one day eclipse us. However I doubt the Sybil will be the cause.

I am not saying 'fuck the future'.

 

[racnor]

You are imagining it. My point was nothing lasts forever. Even the longest lasting empire fades away given enough time. If nea kymai lasts long enough, they might one day eclipse us. However I doubt the Sybil will be the cause.

I am not saying 'fuck the future'.

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It's not that I think the oracle is the single key to remaining preeminent in the league, its that your reasoning for why the very distant future is unimportant validates my worries about the slippery slope argument that I mentioned discarding when I first went over to sapling.

 

[Professor Vesca]

It's not that I think the oracle is the single key to remaining preeminent in the league, its that your reasoning for why the very distant future is unimportant validates my worries about the slippery slope argument that I mentioned discarding when I first went over to sapling.

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Your worry was about how Eretria Eskhata would never be willing to defend its place within the league. The implication that I read is that we would fold like a wet paper bag if Kymai ever asked to be given supremacy over all the league. Or that we do not ever say no to the league when they ask for more privilege.

That is very much a slippery slope fallacy.

We have not said no because none of the league cities have asked us for something completely unreasonable yet. There is nothing to say no to, and their requests have been towards abstract goals that we wanted to work towards anyway.

It is unreasonable for us to say no for the sake of saying no and asserting our authority.

Also. . .

That I am unconcerned with what the future holds for us a hundred, four hundred, eight hundred, a thousand years into the future should have no bearing on whether or not we give the Sybil to Kymai because the Sybil more likely than not is unlikely to even exist as an institution at those time scales.

And barring us getting sacked into the ground, that is what it would take for Nea Kymai to be able to surpass us even if we gave them the Sybil. A village does not a hegemon make. They need numbers to be able to usurp our position and they refused the Linean laws that would give them those very numbers. Whatever they get during this evacuation, that is what they are likely to have even decades into the future. It will take time for them to gain the numbers needed to outpace us, and barring massive setbacks and destruction, it is unlikely that they will ever outgrow us.

So unless we are cruel or thoughtless masters, again, they have everything to gain by remaining in our league and they will never be so big that they will ever be anything other than another city in our league. At least within the boundaries of the quest. Because even if we continue our wise governance, one day we could encounter a foe that no amount of alliances, diplomacy, and flexibility will stop, and we will be sacked, or our culture will change and we will become someone new in someone elses kingdom or empire.

Lookin' at you Rome.

But that is so far into the future that attempting to influence such outcomes is an exercise in futility, so why should I worry about something beyond my control?

 

[Deadly Snark]

So...how long does it take to cross the Adriatic once there is a ring of Epulian League cities and Eretria friendly polities around the sea to act as...train stations in a hourney from Nea Kymai to Eretria? Because...I think there is a possible compromise with the Sybil problem.

@Cetashwayo, how does...a Persephone agreement sound to you as a user motion?

The Sybil spends 4 years time in Nea Kymai. The next 4 years she spends it in Eretria.

What do you think folks? What if we make a League-wide religious festival out of this?

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Kilo, do you think that if such an arrangement was possible we'd spend days at each other's throats?

 

[racnor]

Your basic perspective on the future makes me incredibly angry for personal reasons but I can't find a reason to disagree with your point on the oracle itself.

[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].

 

[Professor Vesca]

Your basic perspective on the future makes me incredibly angry for personal reasons but I can't find a reason to disagree with your point on the oracle itself.

[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].

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I mean, shit changes. It changes all the time. Words fall in and out of use, fashions change, languages and culture change. Merely existing from one generation to the next can change the nature of an entire people. Nothing is in stasis and expecting things to remain the same even decades into the future is an exercise in futility. Why be upset about the natural state of human society?

Take Eretria for example. We grant the Metics their own prytanis! Metics in the city can now own property! Even in the first game, could you ever imagine such a situation? We found our own colonies now! I remember back in the first game that Pylona popping up was a new and exciting event, and just a few turns ago we founded two new colonies and took over a bunch of islands. We are so rich we can afford to evacuate an entire polis.

They dont speak Latin in Rome anymore. They havent for hundreds of years (except in a religious context).

We are literally taking Kymai and pushing it somewhere else.

I dont get what there is to be upset about.

 

[afterthought53]

I'm just getting tired of throwing a never ending bag of goodies at Kymai and just want something for Eretria itself. Sometimes it's ok to be selfish and trying to be a saint gets old after a time.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm just getting tired of throwing a never ending bag of goodies at Kymai and just want something for Eretria itself. Sometimes it's ok to be selfish and trying to be a saint gets old after a time.

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I mean.

I'm not voting to set up Kymai the way I am because I'm super-righteous, or even because I'm trying to be super-righteous.

I'm doing it because I honestly like the idea of having a reasonably big city with serious, independent strength that will act as a linchpin for our expanding interests on the east coast of the Adriatic. Our colonies over there are pretty weak; something like a mass surprise attack by vengeful Liburnii might very well be able to wipe them out entirely.

And I like the idea of Nea Kymai becoming a city that independently promotes the Divine Marriage and gives it some real respect and cachet.

 

[racnor]

I mean, shit changes. It changes all the time. Words fall in and out of use, fashions change, languages and culture change. Merely existing from one generation to the next can change the nature of an entire people. Nothing is in stasis and expecting things to remain the same even decades into the future is an exercise in futility. Why be upset about the natural state of human society?

Take Eretria for example. We grant the Metics their own prytanis! Metics in the city can now own property! Even in the first game, could you ever imagine such a situation? We found our own colonies now! I remember back in the first game that Pylona popping up was a new and exciting event, and just a few turns ago we founded two new colonies and took over a bunch of islands. We are so rich we can afford to evacuate an entire polis.

They dont speak Latin in Rome anymore. They havent for hundreds of years (except in a religious context).

We are literally taking Kymai and pushing it somewhere else.

I dont get what there is to be upset about.

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Thus the personal reasons part. Tis a values difference.

 

[Professor Vesca]

Thus the personal reasons part. Tis a values difference.

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Fair enough, then I will say no more on the topic.

 

[Havocfett]

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

 

[afterthought53]

I mean.

I'm not voting to set up Kymai the way I am because I'm super-righteous, or even because I'm trying to be super-righteous.

I'm doing it because I honestly like the idea of having a reasonably big city with serious, independent strength that will act as a linchpin for our expanding interests on the east coast of the Adriatic. Our colonies over there are pretty weak; something like a mass surprise attack by vengeful Liburnii might very well be able to wipe them out entirely.

And I like the idea of Nea Kymai becoming a city that independently promotes the Divine Marriage and gives it some real respect and cachet.

Click to shrink...

I think Kymai will be quite powerful with the land and support we've secured for them as well as the 4 friendly cities (2 established cities strengthened with more land and 2 new colonies with fast growth) and a great trading location.

That is not to say that the Oracle would not strengthen Kymai and the region further. And sending the Oracle there is by no means a bad decision.

I just still want it in Eretria for reasons already listed and believe it will do more good in the capital. On top of my previous listed reason of tiring of the amount of charity we are heaping on Kymai. If we want to keep donating to league cities, I would rather spread the good fortune around as we are doing with the land Grant's to the two new cities rather than keep piling fortune ontop of fortune in Kymai. We could finance temples to the Devine Marriage in new colonies to spread our culture and religion rather than send away a priceless Oracle.

 

[Spacegnom]

I mean.

I'm not voting to set up Kymai the way I am because I'm super-righteous, or even because I'm trying to be super-righteous.

I'm doing it because I honestly like the idea of having a reasonably big city with serious, independent strength that will act as a linchpin for our expanding interests on the east coast of the Adriatic. Our colonies over there are pretty weak; something like a mass surprise attack by vengeful Liburnii might very well be able to wipe them out entirely.

And I like the idea of Nea Kymai becoming a city that independently promotes the Divine Marriage and gives it some real respect and cachet.

Click to shrink...

You know you are voting for A Tree of Stone, right? Sorry, if I misunderstood your intentions, but this post and the one on the last page make me think you changed your mind.

 

[phil03]

As much as it probably don't help the argument to of my prefered option in this specific debate I do feel it worth restating that, while its obviously something we need to keep an eye on, we shouldn't exagerate how much of a threat Corinth is in the immediate future.

As has already been said, they aren't covered by the Peace of Nicias and therefore remain barred by the Athenians from sailing out of the Gulf of Corinth for the moment. Now, we obviously don't know how long such a state of affair will endure, or wheter they're would be any peace between Athens and Corinth really. Hell, as the Peace of Nicias seem shaky, to say the least, it is perfectly possible the fighting will simply not stop between Athens and Corinth.

For our purposes, however, we only need two more years without peace between them and Athens (I count last year too as we usually receive news the year after the fact if we aren't on the site), as at the end of Linos term our expansion of the fleet will be completed and our present state of grave vulnerability to them will mostly disapear. Granted, they would still outnumber us significantly but word of god has stated, and events have shown, that quality is far more important then quantity in naval warfare here. In that regard we received the highest compliment possible: aprobation from athenian observers! At the very least, attempting to recover their hegemony over the Adriatic after we are done with our naval buildup would mean sending most of their fleet out, something they clearly can afford too with Hellas still being a powderkeg.

Therefore, as far as we are concerned the real question would be what are the ods of such a peace being concluded before the end of Linos term. My personal answer would be very low ones indeed: Corinth simply need to get those islands at the entry of the isthmus back, as ratifying Athens ability to block her maritime lanes almost at will is obviously a pretty unnatractive proposition for them while Athens has essentially no reason to give them back. After all, they already got a peace from Sparta and Corinth is very much unable to threaten them at sea so why give away territorial gains with high strategic importance? Especially when they know they will probably find themselves fighting Corinth again soon away. Moreover, this imminent return to hostility does mean Athens has a vested interest in not allowing Corinth to recover its footing, something I am sure Obander can remind them off if needed, and should they prove willing to return those islands for some reasons it is more then possible they would try to extract guarantees from Corinth as to what it might try against a certain greek polis who Corinth very much dislike but Athens has cordial relations with...

Even if Corinth somehow ended up in a situation where it could make a go for it there is no reason it necessary would. After all, they aren't really in a good shape right now. What, with Athens scaring their fleet in staying at the harbour and strangling their commerce for years on ends. Considering it is rather evident they will be at war again, and probably sooner rather then latter, I can definitely imagine many in Corinth rulling elite argue they simply need to take whatever time they have to try their best to recover and can't afford any major endavour in the meantime.

All and all this make for an awfully small possible window of opportunity for Corinth and this isn't even going into how making friends with Argos is definitely not what I would expect should they be preparing for a big move at sea...

 

[Undead Martyr]

Changing my vote.e



[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].


The benefits of soft power in having increased influence on the eastern adriatic outweigh hoarding the cult, especially since we are not going to focus on culture or religion over commerce and military.

You know one of the biggest advantages of Christianity over Judaism and Greek paganism? It proselityzed.
Let's spread some faith.

 

[Cetashwayo]

Vote closes in 1 hour.

 

[Cavalier]

So if focusing on trade in the Adriatic, and commerce in general, one thing that would be exceptionally helpful is a high quality silver coinage. We have a problem accessing enough silver for our needs, alleviated only by trade, but if some means could be found to bring in more silver it would be a major contribution to the success of a trade policy. Barbaroi in particular might be strongly impressed with a high-purity and artistic silver coinage, perhaps featuring Artemis (in an echo of the Maria Theresia silver thaler) granting preferential access to Eretrian artisans for raw materials. One could see a self-sustaining trade network where Eretrian colonies buy from the Illyrians with silver trade coinage, turn those materials into high quality worked goods, then sell them back for more raw silver.

Fortunately I think lowering the taxes on metics and allowing them to buy property in the city might make it a more desirable destination for metics with valuable skills as artisans.

 

[Cetashwayo]

Okay, vote's closed. The following options win:

• [X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
• [X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
• [X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
• [X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
• [X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
• [X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

 

[Thule]

• [X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].

• [X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

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well at least [Oaths] will only cancel a bit of the [Lands] and only make them Happy instead of very happy

 

[Godwinson]

well at least [Oaths] will only cancel a bit of the [Lands] and only make them Happy instead of very happy

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In fact, I believe that the Lands vote went that way primarily as a counterbalance to the Oath vote. I know that's why I voted for that combination.

"Yes, we're making you swear oaths on gods you don't know, but we're also being very generous elsewhere to make up for it."

 

[NuclearConsensus]

Finally, that's over. Sapling won as I expected, which is annoying, but at least it was a little closer than the other votes were.

How many turns do we have left on this Kymai thing?

 

[Redium]

So if focusing on trade in the Adriatic, and commerce in general, one thing that would be exceptionally helpful is a high quality silver coinage. We have a problem accessing enough silver for our needs, alleviated only by trade, but if some means could be found to bring in more silver it would be a major contribution to the success of a trade policy. Barbaroi in particular might be strongly impressed with a high-purity and artistic silver coinage, perhaps featuring Artemis (in an echo of the Maria Theresia silver thaler) granting preferential access to Eretrian artisans for raw materials. One could see a self-sustaining trade network where Eretrian colonies buy from the Illyrians with silver trade coinage, turn those materials into high quality worked goods, then sell them back for more raw silver.

Fortunately I think lowering the taxes on metics and allowing them to buy property in the city might make it a more desirable destination for metics with valuable skills as artisans.

Click to shrink...

The only issue I can foresee with this is that the Etruscans already have us beat. They're famous for importing raw materials and turning them into splendid artisan crafts; ivory, turtle shell, and ostridge eggs, all worked with gold and silver, are found in Etruscan tombs and among Etruscan trade goods. Most of their trade contacts are focused along their western shore, but their trade networks are very well established. They only truly become severed when the Etruscans finish having The Worst Century EverTM​ and are subjugated by Rome.

We might be able to muscle in as middle-men, taking Etruscan goods and exchanging them with the various Illyrian barbarians for silver there, but that would severely undercut our chances of growing domestic industry. The Etruscans are 'closer' to Illyria (since crossing the Adriatic is a huge barrier), they have the advantage of cheaper transport and existing expertise. Only the areas where our craftsmen wouldn't have to compete with well established Etruscans (Glass) or where Greek manufacturing are qualitatively superior (Pottery) would flourish.

There's also the risk of simply being cut out of Etruscan-Illyrian trade; it depends on how much of a barrier crossing the Adriatic actually is. If it's a bigger problem than dealing with Liburni pirates, then trade will naturally flow from the Etruscans to Illyria and bypass our Agora. We can turn Eretria into the greatest harbour and most significant center of trade in Epulia and the Adriatic, but that does not mean we are well positioned to tap into all routes of trade.

To be honest, I'd like to try and steal some of the Etruscans' techniques and artisans. I know we can't directly import barbaroi into the poleis, but it would be interesting to draw Greek artists from future Venice and Ravenna that have been inspired by the Etruscans.

I think Mercantilism is going to be something we need to consider going forward. Since we use precious metals as currency and we don't have access to native silver deposits, we effectively do not control our own money supply. Since precious metals are inherently deflationary (they're worth more over time as coins are lost, destroyed or traded away), we could suffer a devastating recession quite easily if the flow of trade were to divert and exclude us. There's a reason that Mercantilism was a byword for economic strength for significant portions of history. It was more stable than any alternatives.

Finally, that's over. Sapling won as I expected, which is annoying, but at least it was a little closer than the other votes were.

How many turns do we have left on this Kymai thing?

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It'll probably resolve by the next election which occurs at the start of 357 OL. It's 355 right now so the next update probably will be the last of it; two more votes at most.