I'll edit then.
Thank you.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Thank you.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I certainly don't mind the IC arguments that portray the metics as ingrates or what have you, and I don't mind the OOC arguments that say "OK, so can we keep the squeeze on or not."
But I have to admit, I was starting to get a little uncomfortable with some of the utterances of a few people who have gotten quite, ah... vigorous in favor of "nothing for the metics" positions, while not obviously speaking in-character as an Italiote Greek from the fourth century BC. Because it was starting to feel like their perspectives were, uh... a little bit too real in light of political developments in my home country over the past half-decade.
If those sentiments were meant to be interpreted as the viewpoints of Eretrian citizens from the time of the Peloponnesian Wars, then that's fine, of course, but I did want to encourage people to step back a bit from the brink in terms of OOC language used to discuss the metics and their pursuit of their own interests within the city. It's not that people who vote "nothing for metics" are bad, it's just that it's easy to get behind that position, and invest oneself in defending it, and slip into using the kind of language that we'd do well to steer clear of in real life.
Having seen how that can go in other quests, I'm very glad that so far we've had little trouble avoiding the problem here, and would like for that state of affairs to continue.
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
True, but I thought the aristocrats would be tempted to get more out of slave manpower that has less rights than mouthy metics. They'd be able get away with more on slaves than Metics.
Also, I assume the thought of diverting the focus of Metics against the slaves rather than the polis would appeal to many.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
Slave manpower would undercut the Metics. And probably citizen laborers, too. Which in turn would damage our democracy, for fairly straightforward reasons. It's very hard to be politically independent if you can't have some measure of economic independence.
The citizen lower class and Metics know this, so any attempt to supplant the Metics with slaves is likely to run into sharp resistance.
Ah, I knew the aristoi were checked from going this route for the sake of polis unity, but I thought the Eretrian success and the increasing Metic presence would start causing citizens to crow about it, even the poorer ones.
The poor ones would go against their economic interests to save their "citizen rights" and the aristocrats would encourage this while profiting from metic vs slave tension.
That this hasn't happened means Exoria probably does a damn good job of protecting their class interests and the Antipatrid or Drakonid still feel uneasy about being surrounded even by vassal barbaroi. The trade mollifies them well enough.
Psst, you need to remove the X from the new one. It obsoleted your old vote
I...don't think diverting political focus works like that. Keeping in mind the "They're taking our jobs" tack is more likely to turn AGAINST the Metics, because Citizens and Aristocrats get paid for the labor of their slaves, and now the Metics are competing against the profitability of Citizens.
I was thinking about this in a somewhat anachronistic way when I wrote that, which is wrong, but I figured it would be a game of cheapening labor while balancing privileges and security of the citizens. There'd be sacrifices course...but I assumed pragmatism would win out?
Was just wondering why the desire hasn't been simmering below the surface and bubbling up. And especially with the Metics demands.
I don't quite have a fully solid idea of how Aristoi or Eretria views slaves at this point. It seems like their isn't even really a mild desire for it from the vast majority and that most think metics are troublesome but the only option in terms of numbers.
Or maybe most Eretrians are cynical and of the mind that keeping large numbers of slaves is a fools game that most Hellenes love to play.
- Location
- Luton Airport
I still fail to see why people are intent on giving Kymai their every demand, when we want to dispose of their old institutions and make them an integral part of the League, rather than setting up a potential rival in the heart of what we intend to be our Adriatic hegemony.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
I think it's more so that they want to "be nice" to the Kymaians and try to maximize the population coming over. I don't think people are really considering it from the perspective that we'd be unilaterally providing them an exception from the very league laws that we just bound Ankon to over their protests.
I do think that pointing out how unfair this is to the rest of the league is a better approach than emphasizing how we'd have this semi-alien polis with no ties to the rest of our league but membership regardless dumped at our periphery. But you do have a point, we're having problems now with the metics for having accepted their every demand and I think it's bad to be a total pushover, flouting the just agreed upon league law and all of that on the public dime. We're doing Kymai a favor in this already to go so far, why go so far to appease the most hidebound people (so strict on citizenship that they'd rather die than leave for it!) who may then entrench themselves without any moderation of league immigration.
- Location
- Pilipinas
It is not however more population than Epidauros, and is certainly less than both together. I would not risk endangering the accession of the two new league cities by ripping away the chance for them to colonize the easiest and nearest site, and as Linos says this is a terrible example to set for the league cities by saying that league rules don't apply for Eretria and her endeavors if they don't want it (although they'll be inflicted on you if you go against it and are weak, as with Ankon earlier). Plus, I would contend that even if those 700 were not almost made up through immigration within a mere 25 years, it would be more useful to have it take some citizen immigrants from the local cities. They actually know the local conditions and could serve as an invaluable trove of information to the refugees of Kymai, who have only known very different barbaroi and agriculture in ash-nourished volcanic lands. We want them to land on their feet and not stumble, but if we restrict citizenship to Kymai only then they cannot benefit from this local knowledge.
It was brought up before, but I disagree. The main driver in our immigration is the wage and opportunity available in Eretria, since that's the only city of ours that most have heard of. If we have massive emigration to the colonies from the choice land and opportunities available out there, then that spikes up wages in Eretria as the labor supply becomes less. The high wages drive general migration to our city, and once they arrive and become aware of a good number of the colonial opportunities a good fraction immediately set sail to the colonies. It's a feedback loop that continues as long as we have available land, with the immigration to Eretria being driven by the 'pull' factor of wages towards Eretria. This is most maximized by having desirable colonies hoovering up everyone who thinks they can make a better life from Eretria, that is, a 'push' factor towards the colonies in the form of choice available land. To maximize the pull in, we must maximize the push out; that can be done if we have many attractive spots available (that is, more sites available for colonization) to limit the rate at which any particular one's desirable land is parceled out and provide different circumstances amenable to the whims of the people. For instance, some may prefer island living and others living on a mainland.
Neither was Ankon, they were settled citizens when we decided that the league law should override them despite their protests and provide us the opportunity to put more settlers there to homogenize the league. Having just done this, we now propose to turn around and say that Kymai's foreign laws are paramount and must be preserved over the ones of our league, which it may still reap the full voting benefits of? What do you think that may do for our cohesion as a league, beyond just the one colony? I entailed the benefits above to New Kymai's success that having citizens from around the area to emulate could provide, some loss of their cohesion (which may also be termed as better bonding and acculturation to the Epulian League) could prove quite beneficial if they are able to learn some tips on local agriculture, trade and how not to irritate the local barbaroi into a frenzy.
I fully believe them capable of demanding tribute from Hyele and perhaps they may do so for Neapolis even, although if they were unable to pay double tribute they would be destroyed by the Campanians. That's not where I have the problem. The problem is that having just defeated these cities and thereby further weakening their land forces and defenses, you seem to assume that Rhegion would be willing and able to defend these cities from the land forces of the Lucanians that may strike within a single night as was disastrously proven at Poseidonia. No one can prepare a naval expedition in that time; furthermore, Rhegion's land forces are small and much larger and more practiced armies have been easily put to ruin by the Oscan peoples. For another, where's the profit of doing this? Rhegion wants trade influence and money, it gets that if it forces these cities to for example not sell to Thurii and have to trade for their goods at Rhegion. If these cities get destroyed by barbaroi, hey, that's most of the effort done automatically. That's why they're celebrating the destruction of Kymai. No tribute, but oh well. The financial incentives just aren't there for them to actually stay and fight the Lucanians since they'd keep the trade benefit and only lose some tribute which we've generally found to not be of incredibly high value, certainly not enough for risky engagements with the Lucanians that could destroy their army while their envious neighbor of western Lokri remains at home. And should they actually start to win, the Lucanians can just take to the hills and not fight until they're forced to go back. This is fundamentally a fight where land power is necessary unless you get to an Athens level of the city being supported entirely by using its navy to demand or purchase grain while besieged, and I see absolutely no reason for Rhegion to provide them that when it's in this business to make money.
Much can be accepted for the sake of survival. We set as citizens even slaves to escape destruction, all we ask for their salvation is that they adhere to the laws of our league just as any other city might. This will become far less controversial as the new citizens prove their worth, particularly ones from Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros who have the most local knowledge to provide tips on survival in this strange new region. Eretria hated Athens largely due to that it had done nothing to support the city in the time of its greatest trial; we on the other hand will for years ferry them out, let them live among us as our own and then ferry them to life in a new land where all regardless of their prior status may live as citizens. Compared to a sure death, I find that an entirely acceptable deal. If the accepting of new citizens is somewhat onerous, at least we know it is a burden borne by all the other cities in our league of brothers, and that we may in turn benefit from it and influence the sprouting colonies elsewhere in our time.
The Children of War update is where it happened. From my brief scan over it you did vote but only on other items concerning the wars we were involved with, but you might want to double check to be sure.
Exactly, and with the massive amount of land opening up in Sicily to soon act as another massive magnet for immigration, I want to be sure that we can competitively draw the most of it that we're able to by having the most colonial land available to push out colonists to and through higher wages draw in the Metics.
Don't let the sunk cost blind you. I didn't want to be here, but we are; being here, I recommend that instead of just trying to wind up with the highest number of colonists possible that we safeguard the greater interests of our league and city. We're not doing this for Kymai's sake but for our own, we should feel no obligation to cave to them on their every demand no matter the cost because we actually have a fair amount of leverage in this situation. Furthermore, it sets us up for a bad time later if we bow at their every condition and import the maximum number available; did we not just get burned by the Metics on account of their being emboldened by us almost totally yielding the ground on their conditions? What might the people of Kymai demand for their huge and culturally distinct city without any moderating influence from the rest of the league if they are accustomed to getting their way? The first generation present will be grateful, but we must live with all the ones thereafter as well.
OOC i agree but IC, since the saving Kymai won, my character believes that the more people saved the better, your argument fails to convince him that we should limit the Kymai because of our own future needs. He only sees that since our city is that great we are the golden city on the hill and the future of Italia.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Because building a league of cities that can only sustain itself by deliberately sabotaging internal rivals is neither scalable, sustainable, nor moral.
Sarpedon
Knight Errant
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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- Location
- Southern Virginia
I feel if the goal of rescuing Kymai is just to obtain another settlement in the Adriatic with a large initial founding population to aggrandize our League, we have many ways to accomplish that. It is pragmatic to approach a city on the verge of being overrun by barbarians, though frankly the costs involved in this particular route easily outweigh any strict accounting of the benefits.
But I think most people voted for the rescue out of more idealistic motives. And there is, I think a chance to gain enormous glory and renown for relocating Kymai in magnanimous fashion to the safety of our Adriatic hegemony. It might also serve as an impressive example of cooperation among Hellenes based purely on ethnic ties and fellow-feeling that could have an impact and resonance far beyond the initial motive. But if that is to be the case, then we need to allow for Kymai itself to survive and continue to exist in some measure through its successor-state, much as Eretria is reincarnated to some degree of continuity with Eretria-Eskhata.
So for that reason, ie, having committed on a course even doubting the utility of that course, we should be as generous as possible to the Kymians. That better illustrates the prowess, prosperity, and grandiosity of our city to other Hellenes and will earn more admiration from them. As such we should not seek to force them to abandon their own laws and take any settlers as citizens but should rather consider the evacuation as the relocation that was pushed from the start. In such a way Eretria-Eskhata will benefit the most from the arrangement, not in having another settlement within the League but in being the saviors of Kymai itself and so being remembered in history for a grand and generous feat.
But I think most people voted for the rescue out of more idealistic motives. And there is, I think a chance to gain enormous glory and renown for relocating Kymai in magnanimous fashion to the safety of our Adriatic hegemony. It might also serve as an impressive example of cooperation among Hellenes based purely on ethnic ties and fellow-feeling that could have an impact and resonance far beyond the initial motive. But if that is to be the case, then we need to allow for Kymai itself to survive and continue to exist in some measure through its successor-state, much as Eretria is reincarnated to some degree of continuity with Eretria-Eskhata.
So for that reason, ie, having committed on a course even doubting the utility of that course, we should be as generous as possible to the Kymians. That better illustrates the prowess, prosperity, and grandiosity of our city to other Hellenes and will earn more admiration from them. As such we should not seek to force them to abandon their own laws and take any settlers as citizens but should rather consider the evacuation as the relocation that was pushed from the start. In such a way Eretria-Eskhata will benefit the most from the arrangement, not in having another settlement within the League but in being the saviors of Kymai itself and so being remembered in history for a grand and generous feat.
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- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
How is it principled to waive the need to assume the laws of the league before joining the league after we've already enforced them on little Ankon, just because it would boost the number of people Eretria can snatch up in its endeavor? That's just saying that whatever Eretria would like goes regardless of what we've previously determined as a league, and opens up the door to more squabbling later about what else might merit an exception. We agreed as a league on this colonial policy even though it hurt Ankon because it would benefit us all in terms of quickly empowering new league members and giving us all a hand in their making. Now we wall off the site of Kymai and say 'not this time', well, what then was having Ankon suffer about? What other league benefits are subject to revision if it doesn't fit whatever Eretria sees as best for it in the moment, though all the while we expect full obedience to what is demanded from league members?
It isn't sabotage, anyway. Kymai has a lot of room to benefit from people with local knowledge assuming roles in its citizenship and facilitating the ease of transition to the new climate and surroundings. With higher population growth anyway it's not going to be a substantial difference in the population.
This feat speaks for itself as a magnificent and generous action, transmigrating the city across the waves. Who would hear of this and quibble about the citizenship matter, when it is the law and custom of our league that a newly established site even in a previously independent city has this opened citizenship? But it would introduce serious stress and a bad example to our Adriatic colonies. My intentions in this turn were to secure us a reprieve of pending league problems, but granting foreigners privileges that we do not allow our own league members would serve to bring them to the fore. Seeking renown is well and good, but it is already achieved by the action. We do not need to cave into every demand of a dying city to come out of this as saviors, that will remain the case regardless.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Again, this isn't the case.
Keep in mind that the ratio of freemen to total citizens is about 3.1; a loss of 700 freemen translates into 2170 citizens who don't move.
We voted to rescue Kymai, not plant an Eretrian dependency on the Adriatic coast. I think it's short-sighted to view this as an effort to establish a dependent Adriatic town; we should be looking at this as an opportunity to earn prestige and display out magnificence and generosity as a polis, in true gift-exchange fashion.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Freemen is a combination of citizens and metics in the city. The city has 5,500 freemen, citizens included. Freemen is a term for any free man, meaning a male citizen or metic.
Look, the less people you transport over the less prestige you're going to get from the action and the less potential benefits you'll get from Kymai. Either option is valid but if you're actually going to maximize prestige from endeavor you're going to want to pick options which gather the most number of people.
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Freemen include male citizens.
I fully intend to keep our heads on in this endeavor. If we must do this grand flourish, I wish not for it to end in disaster; viewing the league as essential to our long-term survival as a polity beyond Eretria only, I take a low view of actions which harm the league and advocate to that end. Perhaps there is another matter to come on which I will gladly compromise with them, but I don't see this as one where it is prudent to do so. I will gladly spend more money, wage war on the Daorsi, whatever in support of Kymai but I would loathe to 'sabotage' our nascent institutions for a multi-city entity for the sake of some magnanimous gesture.
I understand that, but surely having them abide by our league laws upon settlement won't totally negate the wow factor of transplanting thousands across the waves? That is my understanding, do correct me if I am in error. I am OK with taking cut in prestiges for practical purposes, even substantial ones, as we all were when we collectively agreed to build a harbor rather than a stadium.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It won't totally negate the wow factor, but by reducing the number of people as well as driving a hard bargain to save them you're significantly weakening the narrative that can be spun from the rescue.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Fair enough. I'll still take it. I'd rather a weakened narrative of our heroism than a strengthened one of our arbitrariness among the rest of the league who now hold strengthened veto power.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
That's the same logic that leads to the sack of Melos.
A league that requires Eretria to weaken its dependencies in order to stay at the top of the pecking order is a weak league. It is much more effective to develop institutions and relationships that entrench Eretrian power now, in order to take advantage of the growth of our dependencies, because there will come a time when Eretria cannot militarily dominate its satellites.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Dude. I'm not at all suggesting a blood and fire approach, kindly refrain from characterizing me as some bloodthirsty person out to torment the Kymaians.
I want the league to be consistent, precisely so that our institutions and relations are developed. The colonial policy builds a stronger Epulian identity, contacts between the cities that can facilitate trade and diplomatic relations, and builds on experimentation with citizenship that has been occurring in Italy for some time by now. It's in our long-term interests to make citizenship more flexible and build connections between the cities precisely because there's only so far that Eretria can go it alone in this world.
Unilaterally excluding Kymai does not serve that purpose. It attracts and entrenches the most hidebound conservatives of Kymai on the matter of citizenship, and allows no immigration in to build such ties between our city states. It foments trouble with the league between this new entity and the old ones as well as Eretria- why is it that this new city gets such special privileges, ones that we denied to Ankon? They all thought that at least we would all be contributing together to league cities, but no, they're all locked out of sending anyone to this cool and great harbor except as second-class metics because they're filthy foreigners. All so that Eretria can look great and impressive to Italiotes who aren't even in the league. Our chances to expand the league to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros are also jeopardized because we take away a carrot that could have been used to incentivize their joining.
So it stirs trouble in the league, could hinder its expansion and we end up with more heterogenous culture and cities that are suspicious of non-uniform privileges. I do not view this as setting us up well for the longer term.
I've got to retire to sleep now, but I don't intend to leave this one alone.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I get what you're saying, but I don't think you're framing the problem correctly.
Think of Kymai as a training ground to develop the techniques and diplomatic sophistication necessary to integrate Taras. Taras, like Kymai, is proud and maintains a strong civic identity; they're not going to join the Eretrian League so long as the League is "Eretria and its vassals," because they don't want to be vassals of Eretria. If, however, we are able to forge a permanent alliance with Nea Kymai, something closer to the relationship between the Swiss cantons, that is a model that is not only easily extensible to the rest of the League, but to Taras, Metapontion, and other poleis that have a reason to join.
To that end, I see consistency as counterproductive -- we want to be flexible in our decision-making, because we want the League to be an alliance of equals, not Eretria and colonies small enough for Eretria to intimidate or coerce.