Remove ads

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Reader mode
Cetashwayo said:
This is certainly an insightful assessment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thank you.

Aaaand that's the story of why I want to quietly encourage Rhegion to become an Italian power, rather than a Sicilian one. Because if they get drawn into the giant combining-mecha-polis-of-polises that Future Sicily is likely to become, the result is if anything going to be MORE dangerous for Eretria. As compared, that is, to what happens if Rhegion simply becomes the great Hellenic naval-mercantile power in the Tyrrhenian Sea to Italy's east, as Eretria is becoming in the Adriatic to its west.
 
Hey, maybe we'll get lucky and Carthage will have an even bigger Freakout at the thought of United Sicily than we do, and then we get the Great War of Sicily. I mean, I doubt things will turn out so perfectly that all our potential threats decide to focus exclusively on beating up each other. But hey, I can dream, and just being a distant witness to such a war would be a sight to behold.

@Cetashwayo A bit curious about the scale of the Sicels War. How many Freemen/Tribesmen could they count on at the start of the war? And what are the numbers of the other two Carthage-aligned tribes on Sicily?
 
Last edited:
Chimeraguard said:
@Cetashwayo A bit curious about the scale of the Sicels War. How many Freemen/Tribesmen could they count on at the start of the war? And what are the numbers of the other two Carthage-aligned tribes on Sicily?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Around 30,000 tribesmen. The Sicani have 20,000 and the Elymi 25,000.

Normally this would be enough to stave off a Sicilian threat, but the united force against them made out of Akragas, Gela, the Sikeliote League and Syrakousai vastly outnumbers them. They are also severely divided and not united at all, and many of their tribesmen are spread around in isolated communities.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Just ask Crassus. :p
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Eh, how many fires could there be in a city of 70 000?

But yeah the situation in Sicily is rather precarious as we noted when dealing with the congress. Still so long as we are on the ball and keep our eyes on Syracuse we can probably prevent it from being a dominant political actor and potentially make it so that even if it does get Hegemony it wont be able to convince the rest of the Island to join them in sacking us.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Eh, how many fires could there be in a city of 70 000?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As I've noted before, Eretria doesn't have 70,000 people. The city itself only has, I would say, around 20,000 residents, and most of the population is thoroughly rural. Athenai remains the largest city in the Greek World with 40,000 people in the city itself.
 
Also, a little teaser for a major map revision I've done for Italia, and Sicily (which I've hidden for now due to the map being updated for next turn cycle). I felt that it was somewhat difficult to tell the borders of each of the Italiote states and their dependencies without really zooming in to see who has cities with their color fill on the map.

So I did this:



Hopefully this will make things much clearer.
 
Last edited:
[X] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

This Metic option strikes me as pretty reasonable. If the Metics are to have a representative, allowing that representative to be a Metic is a perfectly reasonable accomodation. While I think there are some good reasons to have a citizen, at least initially, I think all those reasons are either not very compelling right now or just not applicable to our present situation. That's not to say there won't be consequences for choosing it, but I think they're fairly easily dealt with. Certainly far less problematic than the consequences of quashing the Metics right now.

A Metic Prytanis also doesn't cost us any money. It's not quite free, because I'm certain there will be grumbling IC to match the grumbling OOC, but as I see it this is a very cost-efficient way to appease the Metics.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Also, a little teaser for a major map revision I've done for Italia, and Sicily (which I've hidden for now due to the map being updated for next turn cycle). I felt that it was somewhat difficult to tell the borders of each of the Italiote states and their dependencies without really zooming in to see who has cities with their color fill on the map.

So I did this:



Hopefully this will make things much clearer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think that this is a really great change to map should make it far easier to differentiate between the various city state.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Also, a little teaser for a major map revision I've done for Italia, and Sicily (which I've hidden for now due to the map being updated for next turn cycle). I felt that it was somewhat difficult to tell the borders of each of the Italiote states and their dependencies without really zooming in to see who has cities with their color fill on the map.

So I did this:



Hopefully this will make things much clearer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Krotone and to a lesser extent Lokri are pretty close to the neutral gray of barbaroi lands. Would it be possible to give them a little more color to better differentiate them?
 
Redium said:
(@Cetashwayo Could you explain how/why Thurii would be jealous of Rhegion's expansion in Lucania? From what I can tell, there's a solid mountain range in between Thurii and Lucani; there should be no way that Thurii can possible interact with those cities while barbarians populate the mountains themselves.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cetashwayo said:
Thurii has strong maritime ties to the cities of Laos, Skidros, and Pyxous. Rhegion cannot just close the straits to everyone it doesn't like, but it can close off ports like Laos to Thuriian merchants, severing their connections with the Tyrrhenian.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Another possible strategic reason is that if those cities grow weaker, they're at more risk of being pinched off and wiped out by the Brutii and Lucani, much as the Oscans are doing to Kymai further north.

It'd be sort of a reverse of what the Rhegionians were contemplating doing to the Kymaians- instead of having minor Greek cities on the east coast of Italy getting hammered by barbarians and then finished off by fellow Greeks, it could go the other way around.

And that would be very bad from the point of view of Thurii, which would then face more undivided attention from those barbarians.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
 
Last edited:
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].

[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Denying the Metics anything, whilst simultaneously offering them the opportunity to leave and cease being tax-paying Eretrian Metics whilst still receiving the protection of the League seems rather short sighted, from a fiscal point of view...
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Denying the Metics anything, whilst simultaneously offering them the opportunity to leave and cease being tax-paying Eretrian Metics whilst still receiving the protection of the League seems rather short sighted, from a fiscal point of view...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We'd sensibly expect an exodus of metics, but it would be a gradual exodus, one we could directly compensate by expanded trade, not least with the same colonies being plumped up by the addition of our own metics.

I'd be more opposed to the proposed tax cut if it weren't relatively small- we're not talking about more than a few percent of the city's total revenue. We've passed up opportunities to gain similar revenue streams before, and by integrating the Messapii we stand to gain a revenue stream of nearly the same size as it is.

I was concerned about the long term political implications of metics being able to own land, but with that being only inside the city walls, when Eretria's not that densely packed of a city, I'm not too worried. To the point where thinking about it, I'm more worried about the consequences of not making any concessions...

...

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Last edited:
Ironanvil1 said:
Denying the Metics anything, whilst simultaneously offering them the opportunity to leave and cease being tax-paying Eretrian Metics whilst still receiving the protection of the League seems rather short sighted, from a fiscal point of view...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Simon_Jester said:
We'd sensibly expect an exodus of metics, but it would be a gradual exodus, one we could directly compensate by expanded trade, not least with the same colonies being plumped up by the addition of our own metics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except we've blatantly been told most of them, if not all of the Metics we currently have don't have either the ability, or inclination to leave. That there will be no mass exodus as you both claim, either gradual or otherwise. Further they're going to be getting a pay rise due to rising labour costs and thus better circumstances in the future.

So basically, what you've said is untrue
 
Last edited:
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].

[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].

[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].

[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].


I was not in favor for this Kymai adventure from the start, seeing it as foolish, an act of hubris, and a waste of talents! But now that we are entangled with them, i must say that we must save as much as possible! Why? Isn't that the whole point of this endeavour? To save as many lives as we could? That these people are our brothers? Where are the voices that argued for this? Why are you silent now? Support me and lets persuade our fellow citizens to save as many as possible from the hands of the barbaroi! Yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow their demands, but again i must remind everyone that they did not ask to be rescued, yet we decided to intervene on their behalf! Now, we must see this through to the end with as many rescued lives as possible!

As to the metics, they are important to this city, yet our sacred institutions are far more important. We cannot just give in to their demands yet there is wisdom in buying ourselves some time to properly answer their demands in the future or in letting them invest more in the city... for now, i'll vote for the latter.

So says I, Kalyx the animal breeder

 
Last edited:
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

After the Messapii are integrated, Eretria should lower the ristrictions on slaves. The same dangers that were once present are diminishing enough that we can be less worried about a danger inside the polis.
 
Simon_Jester said:
We'd sensibly expect an exodus of metics, but it would be a gradual exodus, one we could directly compensate by expanded trade, not least with the same colonies being plumped up by the addition of our own metics.

I'd be more opposed to the proposed tax cut if it weren't relatively small- we're not talking about more than a few percent of the city's total revenue. We've passed up opportunities to gain similar revenue streams before, and by integrating the Messapii we stand to gain a revenue stream of nearly the same size as it is.

I was concerned about the long term political implications of metics being able to own land, but with that being only inside the city walls, when Eretria's not that densely packed of a city, I'm not too worried. To the point where thinking about it, I'm more worried about the consequences of not making any concessions...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We already are deficit spending and can anticipate further costs from transporting Kymai, we pushed off the rower training and sacred band expansions due to the shortage of funds so no the tax cut is not affordable. In addition we already have an issue with limited land for citizens, letting the Metics buy up the land will reduce citizen land (and thus hoplite percentage) further.

And we already over conceded last time to the Metics by giving them 4 of 5 demands, if we give ground this time they will just push further the next session. At some point we have to stop and doing so now before we hurt our income is a good time to do so.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top