@Cetashwayo, a question.

Is there a definitive list of taxes that Eretria Eschate uses? All I can recall is a roof tile tax.

Can you also include that list in the informationals or something?
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
On Kymai:

I recognize that a lot of people are wanting to maximize the number of Kymaians we're getting out of this, but it would really be shooting ourselves in the foot right now to be inconsistent in our League practices. We're right now looking to induct Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra to the league, tempting them with all these wonderful league privileges; they are the only established Greek cities in the area, and without them the new Kymai would have only the more distant and island-based Pharos and Issa for support, and no example of mainland-based Epidauros to emulate. If we allow Kymai its own laws, then we're telling the folks at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros that they're getting shut out of the project at this awesome harbor right next to them. Without the ability to have citizen contacts there, they're much less able to have strong trade relations with each other and a good deal of the benefit dries up to having this big city founded right in their neck of the woods. Plus, we'd be letting Kymai have its own laws in an atmosphere with substantially less influence from us at the very periphery of our territory, lessening our connection. The potential to cause trouble throughout our league and discourage the new additions we hope for at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros are not worth the 700 citizens we'd gain otherwise, particularly since we'd be having weaker future immigration for 25 years.

Let me give an example case to demonstrate this. Let's conservatively say that the growth rates over the 25 years are 2% if we have them keep our laws, 1% if they don't. If they have our laws, the potential freemen drop to only 2000 as of yet, while if they keep their own it rises to 2700. In that case:

2000 * 1.02^25 = ~3281

2700 * 1.01^25 = ~3462

This is a very minimal difference which would be more than made up for by the swaying of cities to our league- or, put the other way, their rejecting it for it not being beneficial enough. I beg us not to sow seeds of discord by creating an inconsistent league for the sake of what would end up as less than a couple hundred extra population, all of our league cities can agree on being mad about not having influence in new cities. Particularly since this powerful new city would have allegiance only to Eretria through establishment ties and gratitude, and nothing really binding it to the rest of the league such as citizens descended from the rest of the league cities.

1)It's only "inconsistent" if we treat new Kymai as an Etreian colony instead of an independent city.
2)The people who immigrate to the new kymai will just go to other cities as long as one is open
3)The colony citizenship thing is not a method to spread trade contracts, it is a release valve to dump the urban poor somewhere unproblematic. The immigrants will not be the sort to have contacts with merchants.
In regards to this point specifically'
Particularly since this powerful new city would have allegiance only to Eretria through establishment ties and gratitude, and nothing really binding it to the rest of the league such as citizens descended from the rest of the league cities.
Ins't that true of any new city we invite and most of the ones already here? Only our new colones will have citizens from other cities.
 
[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
 
Since @Cavalier mentioned Eusebios, I might as well throw this up for commentary.

Into the Underworld
Thesis: Eusebios journeys into the Underworld after his death, escorted by Hermes.
Personas:
Eusebios, the mariner
Hermes, Messenger of the Gods
Ambrosios, strategos of old Eretria
Charon, boatman of the River Styx

Prologos:
Stage is set as a graveyard, with an open sarcophagus
The play opens with a dramatization of Eusebios' funeral. The Chorus, playing the mourners, approaches the sarcophagus carrying Eusebios' body. As the Chorus places the corpse into the sarcophagus, they sing of Eusebios and his exploits, which have given glory and honor to the gods and to Eretria. An old man stands from behind Eusebios' grave, clad all in white: Eusebios' spirit. The spirit looks on at the mourners, watching as they eventually disperse, all but one: a young man remains and steps forth. The man introduces himself as Hermes, and he has come to personally guide Eusebios to the Underworld. Eusebios asks what he has done to deserve such an honor fitting only for the greatest heroes. Hermes answers that he has come at the request of Apollo and Athena, as well as Poseidon, all of whom showed favor to Eusebios in life, and now death. Before they leave, Hermes reaches into Eusebios' grave and pulls out a pair of coins, which he hands to Eusebios. "For the ferryman," Hermes says. He then exits right, with Eusebios following.

Act 1: The Descent
Stage is set with rocks and boulders.
Hermes leads Eusebios from his house to a tall hill outside of Eretria and then into a cave in the hillside. As they enter the cave, they are joined by the Chorus, dressed in grey, fellow spirits of the dead on their way into the Underworld. Running past this throng are the Erinyes, who now and again pluck at those spirits who have committed grave crimes against the gods. They near Eusebios in their pursuit of a hapless soul, but Hermes wards them off with his scepter. As the two walk further into the cave, the darkness deepens, causing Eusebios to stumble. Hermes catches him, and then raises his scepter to light their way. Soon Hermes and Eusebios come upon the shore of the River Styx. Here, Hermes says, he must leave Eusebios, as his task is complete. Before he departs, he hands Eusebios a pair of coins for the ferryman, Charon, which he took from Eusebios' grave. Hermes exits left.

Stasima
The Chorus points out the difficulties that the other spirits faced, and contrast it with the ease of Eusebios' journey. When one combines effort and trust in the gods, the way forwards becomes easier than with effort alone.

Act 2: The Shore
Stage is set as a shoreline, with one end decorated as a jetty
As Eusebios stands on the shore, surrounded by the Chorus, fellow spirits of the dead, one of them, an old man, approaches him. This old man is Ambrosios, the strategos of Old Eretria who led its people into exile , saving them from the wroth of the Persians. Ambrosios ask Eusebios who he is, that Hermes himself escorted him, where he has come from, and whether he has heard of news of furthest Eretria. When Eusebios introduces himself to Ambrosios, the old man is delighted and embraces Eusebios, exuberantly thanking him for his long service to Eretria, of which he has heard from the spirits of Eretrians which come to the shore of the Styx. Eusebios asks the old strategos why he has not yet crossed the Styx himself. Ambrosios replies that, on arriving to the Underworld, he swore an oath that just as he led the Eretria of old to cross the seas into exile, so too would he lead those Eretrians to the crossing of the Styx. Until the last Eretrian arrives to cross the river, Ambrosios would remain on the shore, waiting, consoling those unburied Eretrians who cannot cross the river. Eusebios is amazed at this, thanks Ambrosios for his service to Eretria even in the afterlife. Before they can talk anymore however, the Chorus of spirits on the shore, raises a cry. The ferry has arrived, with Charon at the helm. Charon points out the spirits he will take on the crossing, among them is Eusebios. Ambrosios walks with Eusebios to the jetty and helps him onto the ferry, bidding him farewell and wishing him good luck in his journey ahead.

Stasima
The Chorus sings of Ambrosios and his service to Eretria, even unto death and beyond. They observe that he is the model of a true aristocrat, putting the needs of the people before his own, something which should be emulated by all Eretrians.

Act 3: The Crossing
Stage is set as a boat, with many benches and at one end a great oar.
The ferry of the Underworld sets off, with Eusebios seated at the end alone, just in front of where Charon stands, steering the ship. Charon speaks to Eusebios, having heard much of him from the Eretrians he has taken on many a previous journey. He offers to Eusebios a chance to prove his skill, by piloting the ship of the dead himself. "The waters of the Styx are unknown to all, save for one," replies Eusebios, "and that one is you, O Charon, ferryman of the dead. Only you can pilot this ship to its destination." Charon praises Eusebios' wisdom, as not even Hades, who rules the Underworld, knows the waters of the Styx better than Charon. For the rest of the trip, Charon then remains silent. Soon, the ferry's destination looms ahead, the Gates of the Underworld and the Hall of Judgement.
As you can see it's still unfinished, but I've hit a wall and can't really write anymore. The stasima is really giving me trouble, since it seems like I'm just blindly putting things in just for the sake of having something for the Chorus to comment on.
 
I actually recommend that we turn down every metic request this turn. As the update notes, part of their boldness comes from the slipping citizen ratio, as well as the fact that Deme Antipatria has been taking on anyone with a pulse; without meaningful pushback, they'll keep trying their luck. If we deny their requests, they'll understand that we aren't willing to entertain radical proposals that involve defiling the sanctity of our Assembly, or taking an axe to our own tax base.

Yes, this may spark metic anger. But one of the reasons we decided to enact the Linian Colonial Policy was to provide a release value for discontent metics so that they might leave the city and yet still contribute to Eretria. There isn't much point enacting the policy and then not taking advantage of the leniency it gives us to withstand metic anger.
 
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@Cetashwayo

Could we get a user motion on "reduce the tax but do not allow metics to purchase property?" Presumably this would still make the metics unhappy, but not AS unhappy as giving them nothing.

...

Everyone?

I think a lot of people are focusing much too heavily on the 'cut taxes on metics' part of that proposal and not nearly heavily enough on 'let metics buy land.'

In the long run, taxing the metics more lightly won't cripple us; we have other ways to enhance our income. The tribute from the Messapii roughly cancels out the reduced revenue from the Metics, and increased trade through our harbor could be overwhelmingly greater as a contribution.

If metics start buying up real estate, it's going to much more fundamentally shake up the roots of the metic-citizen relationship in Eretria. There will be entire categories of property law and conflict over land where metics will be in conflict with citizens- and winning!

Now, if you are specifically angling for a way to get the metics made full citizens or even partial citizens, this is a good thing. In the long run it will greatly blur the legal distinctions between citizens and metics, outside of the specific political privileges enjoyed by citizens. This will in turn give the metics a lot more economic leverage to extract political concessions.

If, on the other hand, you want to preserve more or less the present social order in Eretria, at least for the time being... well, letting metics buy land is very possibly the most disruptive option available. Maybe the most, anyway, with the possible exception of letting the metic assembly elect their own representative to the assembly. And that's only really going to cause a problem if the fear comes to pass, the fear of this leading to a charismatic revolutionary leader among the metics.

Just one-time paying off a pile of debt is much less disruptive (if more expensive in the short run). It doesn't change the rules of the game. Dialing a tax rate up or down doesn't change things much.

Letting metics buy land is going to be transformative. A generation from now we'll have citizen tenants living on metic-owned farms or in metic-owned apartments, not just the other way around.

I really don't think you people really consider the mid to long term consequences of giving Rhegion a free shot at subjugating Lokri. Yes it is the option that upsets the least important of our allies but I would argue that it also is the option that upsets the balance in the region the most, has the highest potential of complicating our diplomatic situation further and carries not only the highest risk of drawing us into a costly conflict in southern italy in the mid term but also distracts practically all the major powers there from the barbarian threat on their frontdoor.

The Sicily option might upset Taras but it seems to be the option with the lowest reward for Rhegion (and fairly enough also the lowest risk) and means it will be somewhat contained and distracted by all the other big powers on Sicily while the northern option might be distasteful for betraying a potential friend like Hylel (and thus could carry some risk for the evacuation) and risk angering the other rising power in the region who lately hasn't been to happy with us but it would also put Rhegion on a confrontational course against the Lucani and Oscans which seems very useful for those of you who dream of a combined effort against them and, and I admit this could be a positive or negative depending on your own opinion, would make it far easier for Rhegion to actually succeed in "conquering" Kymai which while far from optimal would at the very least deny to the Oscans and further preserve an Greek presence in this key region (though i have to say it is certainly ambitious). Hell, in the "best" case Rhegion succeeds in subjugating its rival and then spends the next few years fighting the Oscans, thus weakening a potential enemy and being unable to become a big problem in southern Italy itself.
I don't think I agree with this analysis.

Pushing Rhegion to take a bigger bite out of Sicily means strengthening the ties between Rhegion and the other Sikeliote cities, which is bad given that thanks in no small part to Alkibiades, we're looking at the current war with the Sicels ending in a united and rather muscular Hellenic Sicily, with Syracuse cast as first among equals. And Syracuse hates us.

I actually WANT Rhegion to have a sizeable empire in southern Italy now that I think about it; it makes them less likely to casually smile and go along with it if Syracuse tries to twist Greek Sicily as a whole into a counter-Eretrian alliance. Because Rhegion's center of gravity will be more within Eretria's reach, as opposed to being more safely out of our reach in the western seas on the other side of the Italian peninsula.

Rhegion is far enough outside our immediate sphere that they can become stronger without being a threat to us. This is in contrast to, say, Taras or Corinth, both of whom would need to expand at our expense.
 
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

I actually recommend that we turn down every metic request this turn. As the update notes, part of their boldness comes from the slipping citizen ratio, as well as the fact that Deme Antipatria has been taking on anyone with a pulse; without meaningful pushback, they'll keep trying their luck. If we deny their requests, they'll understand that we aren't willing to entertain radical proposals that involve defiling the sanctity of our Assembly, or taking an axe to our own tax base.

Yes, this may spark metic anger. But one of the reasons we decided to enact the Linian Colonial Policy was to provide a release value for discontent metics so that they might leave the city and yet still contribute to Eretria. There isn't much point enacting the policy and then not taking advantage of the leniency it gives us to withstand metic anger.
My ideal solution would be to compromise by reducing the taxes (since we DO have other income streams likely to come along soon), but NOT letting the metics buy property.

This serves the goal of pushing back against their demands by not giving them all of even one of their demands, but at the same time recognizing that they do bear a heavy and unsatisfactory burden at the present time. Their basic legal status in the city is not up for discussion here, but we're open to tweaking down the taxes they pay.
 
Pushing Rhegion to take a bigger bite out of Sicily means strengthening the ties between Rhegion and the other Sikeliote cities, which is bad given that thanks in no small part to Alkibiades, we're looking at the current war with the Sicels ending in a united and rather muscular Hellenic Sicily, with Syracuse cast as first among equals. And Syracuse hates us.

Syrakousai is not first among equals. They are actually weakening in comparison to the Sikeliote League, which is now growing far more rapidly than its neighbors and handing out vast land grants in the interior to anyone willing to come. The Sikeliotes have seized a huge swathe of fertile lowland and are carting thousands of slaves away. The big issue in Sicily is actually going to be that when the dust settles the Sikeliotes are pre-eminent and might be able to get the Himerans and Kale Akte to join them outright, which would shatter the balance of power on the island.

@Cetashwayo

Could we get a user motion on "reduce the tax but do not allow metics to purchase property?" Presumably this would still make the metics unhappy, but not AS unhappy as giving them nothing.

You either take the proposals as they've given or you reject them. There's no middle-ground here. Also, please review the proposal. It allows them to buy land within the city walls; effectively, they can own their own houses. This is not the same thing as allowing them to purchase land outside the city.
 
I am for sure not going to do that. I have no interest in getting into the weeds of tax policy.

:(

Ok. It's just...I'm not sure that the taxes would change that much if you allow metics to purchase propert, because of said roof tile tax.

I'm not even asking for numbers, just a list of what they are in the first place.
 
:(

Ok. It's just...I'm not sure that the taxes would change that much if you allow metics to purchase propert, because of said roof tile tax.

I'm not even asking for numbers, just a list of what they are in the first place.

Uh...the tax change is in combination with reducing the taxation. It's useful strategically because it divides the Ioniotes (the most established, loyal, wealthiest and old metic families) from newer tenant farmers.
 
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].

[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].

[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].

[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].

[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Thinking about it further, I have changed my mind

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].

Honestly I feel like we already get away with far too much, but here we are anyway. I think this is all folly and the best way to show that is to let them step in it.

If I am wrong then we are all that much better for it, for a pittance, and avoid going on the path that allows them into our politics. If I am right, I get to laugh and laugh so it is a win-win situation :V
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

"The requests of the Metics vary in their respectability. And perhaps they have grown over-bold between our generosity and their numbers. And yet let us recall that our city is great in part because of their efforts. They have trusted us and we in turn must trust them, or our hegemonia and perhaps our polis itself will fall. The sanctity of the Assembly must be respected for our citizenship to remain dear, it is true. But there is nothing that insults the gods or our ancestors in allowing the metic to own a home of their own within our walls. Ownership of arable land will remain denied to them, as is right and proper so that our citizens may prosper and own a panoply to defend the polis. So long as this remains the case let the metics own their houses and their workshops within the walls.

The concern for our financial base is prudent, I grant. And yet gold and silver are less valuable than people here in Italy. We can make good a small reduction in the burden we have placed on the metic. Having the Messapii pay their fair tribute would almost close the cost. And it is well to shift some of the burden of our taxes to the barbaroi and away from our metics. The completion of the new harbor will make it possible to earn more in tariff revenue from trade as well. So I am not over-concerned, so long as the metics continue to pay a higher tax than that of citizens and our finances do not drift into a deficit over a long period of time. Nor do I think you should be concerned either.

That said it is obvious that the mission to the Messapii is more important should we relieve the burden on our metics. Their tribute will replace the taxes that we remit in our tradition of magnamity to the metics. We must move soon now that they are recovering from the despoiling that Taras gave them. They should not be allowed to become too accustomed to their privilege lest they resent it even more when we impose our demands upon them. And the longer they go without paying tribute the more the Peuketti might, with some reason, resent that they alone pay faithfully. So it is of urgent demand that we order affairs with the Messapii to our satisfaction so that we can continue to improve our position elsewhere.

As far the evacuation of Kymai I think it best to allow them their own laws. We are evacuating them in our generosity. The greatness of this enterprise will be magnified by our leniency on them and they will be all the more grateful to us. We shall make sure to the Epulian League synedrion that this is an exception based on the circumstances of a single large settling population with ancient ties to our polis. Nor should the Kymians enjoy another vote or extra privileges over any other city in our League except this one grace in recognition of their unique situation. We have granted the Epulians much lately and they should be understanding. Not that they have much choice in the matter for we are still hegemon of the Adriatic.

And for Rhegion's foe I think Lokri best. The Lokrians rejected and insulted our xenoparakletor. They chose to cleave to Syrakousi. Let them pay for their folly. If Krotone wishes to take advantage of the situation by seizing land from Lokri we should encourage them. That way the balance between Rhegion and Krotone can be better maintained. And perhaps Obander should speak with the proxenos of Metapontion and the other Italiote powers to see what might be done to keep any war from creating too much instability. But in the end it is no concern of ours if Lokri's ambitions are finally defeated for good."
 
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[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Let's be real -- if all we're aiming to do is to settle 1500 people at a port, we might as well go to Taras and buy 1500 Sikeliote slaves while prices are cheap, who we set free to settle at OTL Split or Dubrovnik. It will be cheaper, faster, require much less of a logistics chain, and considerably less alienating to every naval power between us and the swamp hicks.

What we are trying to save is not just the people, but Kymaian institutions; we're trying to build a partner, not a colony, and that requires a less heavy-handed, more indirect approach.
Why? Why are we spending a vast amount of money and influence, to rescue a grudging people who do not wish to be rescued, when we could spend that effort elsewhere for far better result? Why do we, a revolutionary and eccentric polis, founded on odd principles, value the foreign institutions of Kymai in any way shape or form?
 
[] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].

"My fellow citizens, I urge you all to allow Metics to purchase lands and to reduce the burden of their tax. I acknowledge that they overstep themselves, but it is easy to see why they overstep themselves. Of the cities' entire tax income, 140 talents are extracted from the Metics who make up just over half of our population. Less than 50 come from our citizenry.

"The Metics overstep themselves, but we should remember that they contribute to this poleis as well. They row in our fleets, they hurl stones and javelins alongside the psiolli, and they fight alongside us in the phalanx. As of this moment, they cry out for our mercy, that their exceptionally high burden is too heavy. They are also squeezed by the double vice of high rents, unable to own property or build up wealth.

"The long-term cost to Eretria will be offset by increased tribute from the Messapii as taxes decrease so in this instance, it is not a great cost. It will add up over the years, but our coffers will continue to grow as our population expands and as trade begins to bloom.

"As a side effect of this policy, I foresee a change in the character of the Metics who reside in Eretria. By allowing them to purchase urban land and thus build up wealth, more and more metics will pile into the city, offering their skills in urban workshops. The Demos Drakonia has made clear that this is their goal for Metics: craftsmen who can create works like Celtic ironwork, Attikan pottery, and other famed trade goods. Instead of relying purely on agrarian products, we will be able to make more and create new trade routes, bringing wealth to the city.

"The Metics who still remain as tenant farmers are likely to continue seeking their fortune in Adriatic colonies as founders and citizens. They have the skills necessary to succeed there, but nothing ties them tightly to us. It will be small numbers that leave us, but over time, that will add up.

[] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[] [Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
[] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].

"On where to redirect Rhegion, I would ask the assembly to reconsider suggestion that Rhegion declare war on Lokri. I suspect that in such a war, the city of Lokri will not fall due to their strong walls, but the two cities within their sphere north of Rhegion, Medina and Metauros, will be forced to change their overlord to Rhegion.

"This is a relatively mild gain and one that is easily achievable. However, once those two cities have fallen, it means that Krotone and Rhegion will directly border each other. There is a gap west of Krotone in the Apennine Mountains, near Skyllerion. This gap allows Krotone direct access to the cities of western Magna Gracia. With Rhegion expanding into this region, their spheres of influence will directly collide and hostilities will surely result. Given the nature of poleis to seek hegemonia, I do not believe we will be able to manage these hostile neighbours long-term.

"If we bid Rhegion fight Lokri, they will win and then they will immediately border Krotone, cutting them off from expansion. Both polities will be forced to fight across the gap in the Apennines as they contest the cities of the region.

"We need both Krotone, Rhegion, and Thurii to remain powerful in the region for our own reasons. Thurii helps us check Metapontion and Taras. Rhegion is a check towards both Syrakousai and the Sikeliote League. Krotone, in turn, checks both Rhegion and Thurii. It is a complex political web we weave, but it is necessary to keep the region divided.

"It is for that reason, that I oppose encouraging closeness between Rhegion and the Sikeliote League. If they become truly close and put aside their differences over the Strait of Messana, it means that their faction will slowly come to dominate Sikelia. The Sikeliote League is right now in ascendance while Syrakousai wanes as a result of the ongoing war against the Sikels. If this trend continues too much, then the Sikeliote League will supplant Syrakousai as the dominant power. It would then be them that we would be forced to oppose least they continue on to unite Sikelia.

"The entire island of Sikelia being united is something we must oppose with utmost action. All of the cities in the region combined would out number us to such a degree that opposition is impossible. As it sites, the Sikeliote League is our ally, but we are roughly equal in size. If they were to become pre-eminent on all of Sikelia, I fear what would happen. One is right to be wary of a cute little piglet that has grown and revealed it is truly a boar.

"By encouraging Rhegion to expand towards Lipara and the Lucanian coast, they will expand against no one. Thurii will be jealous, but there is a mountain range in between the Greek cities of Lucania and Thurii. Given the relative weakness of their navy and Rhegion's own control of the Straits of Messana, there is no possible way for them to contest overlordship of the region. Thurii cannot march armies over the mountains in any reasonable time, nor can they expect trade and tribute to flourish between themselves and the region.

(@Cetashwayo Could you explain how/why Thurii would be jealous of Rhegion's expansion in Lucania? From what I can tell, there's a solid mountain range in between Thurii and Lucani; there should be no way that Thurii can possible interact with those cities while barbarians populate the mountains themselves.)

"Rhegion is naturally inclined to develop their interests towards the north. This will bolster their trade networks and obligate them, as overlords, to defend the Greek cities of Lucani. We have all heard tales of massive barbaroi migrations. Campania has fallen. The cities of Lucani must wonder when their time will come and the barbaroi will move against them.

"If they accept Rhegion's overlordship, then that will obligate Rhegion to come to their defense. Rhegion's attentions will be divided, drawn further north and they will have to act far more cautiously in Sikelia. This is desirable to us. We want them divided in this way as it reduces the changes that Rhegion aligns with or fights with the Sikeliote League or comes into conflict with Krotone. Division within the region and more defense for the now isolate Greek cities of Lucani; both of these ends are desirable.

[] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].

"This once I am inclined to grant Kymai an exception to the League's laws. The reason I suggest this is as an object lesson: New Kymai will have 700 additional freemen, but they will fall behind extremely quickly. As a result of their refusal to accept more immigration. The Epulian League has an adult freeman population of nearly 30,000. If we grow by one-part-in-twenty (the rate Eretria has grown these last few year Census), then we shall add 1,500 freemen to our number. Given how most of the League's population growth is concentrated in new colonies and colonies naturally expand faster than established cities, 1,500 new freemen is likely to be a gross underestimation of the actual population increase in our new colonies of Pharos and Issa. Kymai's refusal to follow our immigration policy will cause New Kymai to quickly begin to fall behind their neighbours.

"In the distant future, we will be able to point to the tale of Kyami and their refusal to mix with outsiders as an abject lesson. They refused the outside world so the outside world passed them by.

[] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

"There is little choice here: this option has been left as long as I feel safe. For the last four years, we had some contact with the Messapii in establishing the annual cattle drives and have the excuse of giving them four years to recover before their formal submission. If we were to continue to allow this option to exist untaken, then the Messapii will begin to wonder if they are really our feuditories at all. Perhaps our original defense pact stands and they refuse tribute. It would be... annoying to correct them; a distraction we could ill afford."

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
(@Cetashwayo Could you explain how/why Thurii would be jealous of Rhegion's expansion in Lucania? From what I can tell, there's a solid mountain range in between Thurii and Lucani; there should be no way that Thurii can possible interact with those cities while barbarians populate the mountains themselves.)

Thurii has strong maritime ties to the cities of Laos, Skidros, and Pyxous. Rhegion cannot just close the straits to everyone it doesn't like, but it can close off ports like Laos to Thuriian merchants, severing their connections with the Tyrrhenian.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].[/QUOTE]
 
Syrakousai is not first among equals. They are actually weakening in comparison to the Sikeliote League, which is now growing far more rapidly than its neighbors and handing out vast land grants in the interior to anyone willing to come. The Sikeliotes have seized a huge swathe of fertile lowland and are carting thousands of slaves away. The big issue in Sicily is actually going to be that when the dust settles the Sikeliotes are pre-eminent and might be able to get the Himerans and Kale Akte to join them outright, which would shatter the balance of power on the island.
I mean.

I don't want to directly contradict you on this, but...

Syracuse is still a lot bigger than any of the other cities on Sicily, right? And likely to remain greater than any of the individual cities on Sicily, despite those other cities being strengthened by slices of the pie that come from conquering the Sicels.

Looking at this from a long term perspective, Syracuse can't dominate Sicily with the opposition of the Sikeliote League, but to me, that doesn't mean it can't find another path to power in Sicily.

...

Right now, we're in a situation created by the fact that a generation or two ago, Syracuse's overwhelming power made it the enemy of all Greeks on the island who didn't want to be ruled by Syracuse. Thus the Sikeliote League.

Until now, Syracuse has pursued antagonism against the League, trying to break their power, first with direct conflict, then by using the Congress of Gela to cut off the foreign support that benefits the League much more than it benefits Syracuse. But after Alkibiades went and Alkibiades'd the Congress and turned its outcome into a general declaration of war against the Sicels (an outcome we voted for, even if Obander didn't personally engineer the outcome so much as Alkibiades did)...

Well, to my way of thinking, that means that some of the old calculations are going to change.

...

If Eretria is lucky, then after the Sicels are finally ground down to irrelevance, the Syracusans and the League will resume their own rivalry, splitting control of the island and having Syracuse gradually choked off and worn down by rivalry against a coalition of city-states that are collectively more powerful.

But if Eretria isn't lucky, then I could easily imagine this situation ending with Syracuse making its peace with the League, and turning to the cause of inter-Sikeliote cooperation. They'd have to cede the kind of true hegemony that they aspired to under the tyrants (and would have gotten away with if it hadn't been for those meddling lithocrats). But they'd still be the biggest city on the island- "first among equals" in the literal sense, though not in the rather ironic sense in which the emperor of Rome was formally "first citizen."

The League is collectively as strong as Syracuse, and becoming stronger than as it gains a greater share of the spoils from conquering the inland Sicels. But trying to think a step or two ahead, I find myself concerned that regardless of how it comes about, a truly united Hellenic Sicily is likely to be a threat to Eretria. We would be very fortunate if it ends with Syracuse being so thoroughly broken that its hostility to us ceases to be relevant, or is so diluted by the love of the cities now making up the Sikeliote League that the same happens.

...

I'm basically saying that I think Rhegion having a sizeable power base at the 'heel' of the Italian boot and running up the east coast towards where Kymai now stands isn't such a bad thing for Eretrian interests. They don't directly compete with our trade very much, and while they're potentially a threat to some of the cities we've allied with, well... cynically, alliances tend to be a lot more stable when there are enemies out there. The Krotones will be annoyed when they figure out what happened if we sic Rhegion on the Lokrians, but on the other hand they'll also be aware that if they need an ally against Rhegion, we're pretty much it. Similar calculations apply to the Thurii and arguably even to Taras. Especially with Taras being in the awkward position of being a mercantile power that lacks a strong navy, whereas Rhegion is a mercantile rival of theirs and does have a strong navy.

You either take the proposals as they've given or you reject them. There's no middle-ground here. Also, please review the proposal. It allows them to buy land within the city walls; effectively, they can own their own houses. This is not the same thing as allowing them to purchase land outside the city.
Well, I understand why you're hard-noping the idea, but... [shrugs,sighs]

That said, yes, I did forget a detail of the proposal. Ownership of land inside the city is probably harder to parlay into political power- though far from impossible. Just ask Crassus. :p
 
That said, yes, I did forget a detail of the proposal. Ownership of land inside the city is probably harder to parlay into political power- though far from impossible. Just ask Crassus. :p

Crassus was operating in a city of hundreds of thousands. Roman landlords in the city did indeed have very lucrative businesses- in a city of some ~500,000 people or however many had come to populate Rome by the time of the Late Republic.

The League is collectively as strong as Syracuse, and becoming stronger than as it gains a greater share of the spoils from conquering the inland Sicels. But trying to think a step or two ahead, I find myself concerned that regardless of how it comes about, a truly united Hellenic Sicily is likely to be a threat to Eretria. We would be very fortunate if it ends with Syracuse being so thoroughly broken that its hostility to us ceases to be relevant, or is so diluted by the love of the cities now making up the Sikeliote League that the same happens.

This is certainly an insightful assessment.
 
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