Well, they go from two potential rivals of roughly equal power to them, which they can balance against each other, to one rival vastly more powerful and pursuing an expansionist strategy. I have to say I wouldn't feel that happy about such an event if I were them either.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Well, they go from two potential rivals of roughly equal power to them, which they can balance against each other, to one rival vastly more powerful and pursuing an expansionist strategy. I have to say I wouldn't feel that happy about such an event if I were them either.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Venice is neat and the amber too (especially since the Pelloponesian War is over) but we really really need to get the Messapii in line.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Venice is neat and the amber too (especially since the Pelloponesian War is over) but we really really need to get the Messapii in line.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
With all due respect, fearing a serious exodus when tensions is already high with the metics isn't any more farfetched then imaging a stasis caused by simply tweaking the role of the Prytanis a bit, or throwing them some money.
And that's precisely why I don't think they will come back in 8 years asking for more massive consecessions: they know they are close to the line as it is. As for the rest, I tend to lean toward the band aid as it give us some time to get ourselves in a position where we could make some conscessions on taxation without it being too damaging.
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I am a bit surprised by how negatively a lot of you view the strengthening of the metics and wish to keep them as they are. Sure giving them more powers will cause internal issues and conflicts but it is also the only way to really overcome the rather strict separation if citizens and metic that currently exists and there is a lot of potential benefit in doing so and honestly something I thought many here viewed as a long time goal.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the metics NOT emigrating when dissatisfied with the taxes they pay.
If emigration carries away all the metics most inclined to do something about their dislike of paying Eretria's heavy tax on metics, then civil unrest is less likely. If they remain here, there is a greater risk of them plotting against the city or acting as supporters of some faction that would seek to overthrow its democracy.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
And if they get that extreme push? Wouldn't that make them more confident yet again?
I know that, if someone gave me everything I asked for twice, even if I knew I'd pushed my luck, I'd be damn tempted to see if I could make it three for three.
piebox
Blueberry
[x] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
No necessarely, you might react that way but others might decide to quit while they are ahead. After all, that's pretty much how the Epulian League reacted when we gave them conscessions so it isn't like it would be totaly unprecedented in the quest and they're is circumstances to argue that the metics are likely to react similarly.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Because 30% is completely ridiculous. That some people will leave is obvious, and that they will come again with smarter plans is also obvious. But 30% is enormous. Most of which dont have the funds or the connections to go anywhere, for whom this sort of transport capacity and the Sicilian Powers dont have that kind of cash laying around.
- Location
- United States
[x] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Exactly, if the ones who hate this leaves thats good for us. Not some disaster where thousands upon thousands of them leave all at once like some are claiming.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
30% is the nightmare scenario and won't happen in one year, maybe a decade. A stasis, as some seem to fear, is also the nightmare scenario, especially in a city that is otherwise pretty quiet right now.
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Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
And in a decade Eretria would have grown far more anyways, so it would still be a net gain to us while we work on building up our trade routes.
How exactly would this lead to stasis? We agreed to their demands last time and we are refusing them this time, that's it. If we consistently refused maybe you would have an argument, but at this point your points are irrelevant.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
And the rest of the Western Greeks would have even more, taking away some of our comperative advantage.
The stasis is what peoples who fear the consequences of granting the consequences seem to believe will happen if we do grant them.
In both instance lesser consequences are likely but it does puzzle me that people automatically goes for the catastrophic scenario when it come to making consecessions while being fairly confident we will only get the mildest consequences possible for refusing...
- Location
- Central Europe
@Cetashwayo When would the tax break take effect? Next year or in three years with the next census? If it is the former, could we offer the latter as a compromise via a write-in?
It also makes sense from a narrative perspective. By then our grain shipments to Kymai would be done with and the Messapii tribute should hopefully be in place.
It also makes sense from a narrative perspective. By then our grain shipments to Kymai would be done with and the Messapii tribute should hopefully be in place.
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- Location
- Space
We literally gave them concessions last turn, update literally stated that they are pushing their luck with their demands.
Every of their demands already has consequences by itself without taking in account how our citizens will react to it.
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Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
If you seek to hold on to every little advantage you will be left with nothing.
Pretty sure they fear the opposite of Stasis.
Because we are roleplaying. The social divide between citizens and not citizens is considered sacred. The more you remove the things that make that distinction, the more meaningless the division and the privileges it comes with becomes.
Besides fearing that the Metics will come to us with more extreme demands is hardly a nightmare consequences, especially when compared to the 30% you pulled out. We granted the Metic more rights, they came to us with extreme demands. Its an easy pattern to see.
There are consequences to every single decision, to think that just because we agree to one demand would solve the problem is ridiculous. They can come back in 8 Years when we are not hemorrhaging money on Kymai and the fleet.
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- Location
- Dreiländereck
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission
I, Isigas son of Euplastos, wish for our xenoparakletor to finally settle the issue with the Messappii and to formalise their subjugation.
In regard to Kymai, I would say that we must not allow for a double standard in our league, all are equal in their position below Eritrea. And I hope that a smaller colony does not alarm the barbaroi quite as much in the beginning.
Further we should direct Rhegion against Lokrii Epixephyrii, it will weaken an ally of our old nemesis Syrakousai without complicating our new peace with Taras.
Last and certainly not least I am of the opinion that is only fair that we allow the Metics who shoulder many burdens for our city, a ruced tax burden. This will also split the metics and divde them in a way tha will it easier for the citizenry to direct the city as we please.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission
I, Isigas son of Euplastos, wish for our xenoparakletor to finally settle the issue with the Messappii and to formalise their subjugation.
In regard to Kymai, I would say that we must not allow for a double standard in our league, all are equal in their position below Eritrea. And I hope that a smaller colony does not alarm the barbaroi quite as much in the beginning.
Further we should direct Rhegion against Lokrii Epixephyrii, it will weaken an ally of our old nemesis Syrakousai without complicating our new peace with Taras.
Last and certainly not least I am of the opinion that is only fair that we allow the Metics who shoulder many burdens for our city, a ruced tax burden. This will also split the metics and divde them in a way tha will it easier for the citizenry to direct the city as we please.
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- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Maybe but our demographic prowesses has very much be THE trump card from Eretria. Discarding lightly is definitely not a good idea, especially when our growth rate is getting back to the ground.
They fear the reaction of the citizens and massive troubles in the city that will paralise it and cause massive damages, i.e stasis.
We are, but we also have played with metics rights more the pretty much any OTL polis, none of those conscessions is a radical departures.
The very update state that they knew they are close to a line so I would say its the idea that they would automatically keep going, full speed and without hesitation, in spite of such a mindset that might be a bit of stretch...
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
A one-time payment to assuage the Metics of their greatest burdens will not destroy us, and will show that the city yet cares for them. It also does not change the underlying relationship between citizen and metic, a good thing when we have in recent years been so generous. Furthermore, many of the debts the Metics hold are indeed owed to others within Eretria, and so this would be money paid into the economy that can spur commerce - doubly valuable to have those funds available to our citizens as we seek to grow our ties of trade. In my eyes, it is an almost universal benefit to all the people of our city.
The risks this investment holds will be less if we are less burdened by the people of Kymai, who seek to dictate the terms of our magnanimity. Why should we hold in reserve funds for those far away when people close at hand, people with whom we live and work daily, are equally deserving and will offer us greater profit? Let Kymai's refugees be subject to the laws of their rescuers.
Finally, the matter of the Messapii. Much has been said on this already, and I believe we are broadly in agreement throughout the assembly, but here is the bottom line: what was bought in blood should not be left to wither by idleness. We may want to seek new wealth abroad, but to let what we have slip away for it is the height of foolishness.
So says Eugenios the Stonemason, who would not at all mind getting the drachmae owed to him by his neighbors after helping repair their hearth.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
A one-time payment to assuage the Metics of their greatest burdens will not destroy us, and will show that the city yet cares for them. It also does not change the underlying relationship between citizen and metic, a good thing when we have in recent years been so generous. Furthermore, many of the debts the Metics hold are indeed owed to others within Eretria, and so this would be money paid into the economy that can spur commerce - doubly valuable to have those funds available to our citizens as we seek to grow our ties of trade. In my eyes, it is an almost universal benefit to all the people of our city.
The risks this investment holds will be less if we are less burdened by the people of Kymai, who seek to dictate the terms of our magnanimity. Why should we hold in reserve funds for those far away when people close at hand, people with whom we live and work daily, are equally deserving and will offer us greater profit? Let Kymai's refugees be subject to the laws of their rescuers.
Finally, the matter of the Messapii. Much has been said on this already, and I believe we are broadly in agreement throughout the assembly, but here is the bottom line: what was bought in blood should not be left to wither by idleness. We may want to seek new wealth abroad, but to let what we have slip away for it is the height of foolishness.
So says Eugenios the Stonemason, who would not at all mind getting the drachmae owed to him by his neighbors after helping repair their hearth.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I am honestly starting to wonder wheter some user-motion might be possible here. For example, could we refuse their actual demands but, say, give something like 20-30 talents to deal with the debt crisis as a way to make them swallow the pill more easily and therefore limit the numbers of those who will leave?
@Cetashwayo
@Cetashwayo
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I think it's reasonable to have the tax break take effect at the end of the census period. The Metics would surely allow this without a motion, but they expect you to own up to it. This is an advantage of granting them their demands previously; they're more willing to trust you on your word.
I would agree that it wasn't just sortition. I think that the political reforms were enabled by the post-war situation and the end of the tyrants. And yeah, the period between the end of the war and Alexander is fascinating. It has a lot of real political experimentation; at one point Argos and Korinthos briefly form a sympoliteia that is then broken up by Sparta at the end of the Korinthian War.
As for drawing on Athenai, I agree that early on this was a big issue and I'll take responsibility for it; even stuff like the existence of Metics is mostly an Athenian thing. To my defense, when I started writing in 2015 I didn't have the knowledge or source I do now. As for two-parent citizenship, I think that's a fair objection, but I would also be mindful of the fact that this is a very Eretrian thing. I don't believe I've stated that other Italiote cities have two-parent citizenship though if you found something to that effect let me know and I'll retcon it. The point is specifically how citizenship is sanctified in Eretria; in my mind the two-parent citizenship is an explicit decision to draw lines between classes and a relatively new development, but also one that is imbued with powerful symbolic energy in a city that treasures its history so much.
I also feel that people sometimes take my answers of "no" in the moment as answers of no in the long-term, which is less certain. I don't think that "universal citizenship" for metics and citizens is too far-fetched, it's just completely out of bounds right now. I also like to create interesting social challenges, and right now the Metics have taken the place of the (imo more hamfisted) class conflict of previous games.
Rhegion will considerably grow in power and become the new bigshot in the region, over and above even Thurii. It's a big shift and threatens their own remnant hopes of hegemony and pride.
I don't know where this idea that all the metics will leave is coming from. As fewer metics come to the city, the cost of the labor of the remaining metics will go up, thus preventing more from leaving because staying at home remains a better deal. Further, populations aren't that mobile, and these colonies are still getting established, and so you're seeing a few hundred metic men leave at a time, not thousands. There's also a far bigger group of people who are landing in Eretria, staying a fortnight, and then sailing off to the colonies once they become aware of the deal there.
Certainly there will be no mass exodus. Labor isn't that mobile.
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Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
And again, you are exaggerating. Our immigration is good because we have a shitton of land and work to give people and we still do with the colonies. Our advantage isnt going to go away nor are the metics going to leave in a mass exodus because they dont have the capability to do it and no other Polis will have the political will to take masses of Eretrian Metic away.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
So they aren't going to leave, immigration to the colonies won't be affected overly and they're going to get better wages and circumstances even if we refuse their demands?
Yep, this just reaffirmed my desire to tell them no