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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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I mean, to those who vote for giving the metics no conscessions I gotta ask: what do you think is gonna happen?

Yes, none of those conscessions are really appealing IC, even if they are probably more then justified OOC, and might have unforsee consequences but if we take a hard line we might very well triger an exodus, and even a moderate Metic exodus would be order of magnitude worst then any of those conscessions in its consequences.
 
Well I mean obviously the Metics are going to push their luck. You even gave them a designated schedule of when they should meet and agree how they push their luck! :p
 
phil03 said:
I mean, to those who vote for giving the metics no conscessions I gotta ask: what do you think is gonna happen?

Yes, none of those conscessions are really appealing IC, even if they are probably more then justified OOC, and might have unforsee consequences but if we take a hard line we might very well triger an exodus, and even a moderate Metic exodus would be order of magnitude worst then any of those conscessions in its consequences.
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And what will happen if we agree to them? We already did it once and they asked more from us, so if we don't refuse them now they will ask more on future assemblys.

I'm hoping to humble them and have them ask for a little things down the road giving us time to prepare for transition.
 
phil03 said:
I mean, to those who vote for giving the metics no conscessions I gotta ask: what do you think is gonna happen?

Yes, none of those conscessions are really appealing IC, even if they are probably more then justified OOC, and might have unforsee consequences but if we take a hard line we might very well triger an exodus, and even a moderate Metic exodus would be order of magnitude worst then any of those conscessions in its consequences.
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Them leaving for the colonies is better for us than a civil conflict within our citizenry. Personally though I expect that there will of course be anger thrown at Eretria, but at the same time a circular firing squad of the moderate metics blaming the ones who pushed for this is also likely to occur.

Nothing is for certain, but saying no is hardly going to trigger the collapse of the Polis. Eretria has been generous and lenient, like a patient parent to their children. But parents cannot simply say yes all the time, and when times such as these comes the stick must be the answer.

They pushed their luck too far this time, come back again in 8 years with something more reasonable.
 
Driven by Apathy said:

In OOC terms, I really don't think building Eretria's glory on the backs of an oppressed underclass (the existence of an underclass is unavoidable, but we shouldn't oppress them) is a sustainable model. That kind of thing is a weak point in any society. Give the metics a chance to be prosperous, an Eretrian dream, and they will be much less inclined to oppose the social order and much more supportive of it.
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It's not sustainable. That's why I voted for the harbor. But the harbour and it's trade routes aren't done yet.
Deadly Snark said:
Them leaving for the colonies is better for us than a civil conflict within our citizenry. Personally though I expect that there will of course be anger thrown at Eretria, but at the same time a circular firing squad of the moderate metics blaming the ones who pushed for this is also likely to occur.
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Indeed. This is a major component of my support for refusing the demands.
 
McLuvin said:
It most certainly is when the entire economic backbone of a nation relies on it...
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No it most certainly is not.

It might be an impossible request at that specific moment, but that doesn't make it unreasonable of or unjustified. Not in the least.

If we are truly dependent on exploiting the metics, then that is a weakness we must wean ourselves off as soon as this becomes possible. Lowering their taxes doesn't actually tear that large a hole into our budget either - our income will decrease by only about 4%. I'm pretty damn sure a metic rebellion or even a smaller disturbance would prove far more costly.

And finally, the more prosperous the metics are, the more economic activity they will generate, which will in turn generate additional sources of income for the city.

Deadly Snark said:
OOC: I mean, horribleness aside, I dont think thats really correct? Slavery and oppressed underclasses were omnipresent in human history precisely because if done correctly its entirely sustainable. Like Sparta and the Helots, that is a terrible thing, but that system was sustained for a fair few centuries before all the wars ground Sparta into the ground.
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So it was functional. The same can be said about the Soviet Union.

That doesn't mean those systems functioned well. Those systems were maintained because the people in charge benefited from them, not because they were beneficial for society as a whole.
 
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I find it truly bizarre that people are simultaneously for outright refusing the people who deserve some consideration from us, being the foundation our polis is built upon, while being simultaneously desperate to piss away money and influence letting a people on the brink, who we are charitably choosing to save, dictate to us exactly how we should save them.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
I find it truly bizarre that people are simultaneously for outright refusing the people who deserve some consideration from us, being the foundation our polis is built upon, while being simultaneously desperate to piss away money and influence letting a people on the brink, who we are charitably choosing to save, dictate to us exactly how we should save them.
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Very true. If we can afford to rescue Kymai, we can definitely afford to give the Metics some tax relief.

(I am, by the way, of the opinion that we can afford to do both those things. But if I had to choose, I'd choose to prioritize Eretrian metics over Kymaians)
 
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Star said:
And what will happen if we agree to them? We already did it once and they asked more from us, so if we don't refuse them now they will ask more on future assemblys.

I'm hoping to humble them and have them ask for a little things down the road giving us time to prepare for transition.
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Its a risk, to be sure, but we don't know how things would evolve in the future. Hell, one of those might easily diffuse the matter for a good generation, and when they will come back up Eretria and her surroundings are gonna be a completely different. Yes, it might cause tensions inside the citizenry but, for all account, the city doesn't have much of those going on right now so we can probably manage it.

Refusing it might humble them but, even if it does, it will also probably cause an exodus that would drain our economic, political and military power.

Deadly Snark said:
Them leaving for the colonies is better for us than a civil conflict within our citizenry. Personally though I expect that there will of course be anger thrown at Eretria, but at the same time a circular firing squad of the moderate metics blaming the ones who pushed for this is also likely to occur.

Nothing is for certain, but saying no is hardly going to trigger the collapse of the Polis. Eretria has been generous and lenient, like a patient parent to their children. But parents cannot simply say yes all the time, and when times such as these comes the stick must be the answer.

They pushed their luck too far this time, come back again in 8 years with something more reasonable.
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That's assuming that they will all leave to the Adriatic...

Hell, even in a comparatively kind scenario for Eretria, say 10% leave and they all go to the Adriatic, the effects of it are arguably gonna be worst then any of those conscessions.

@Cetashwayo What are the opinions of the city notables on the matter?

EDIT: On another matter, we are now officially in uncharted territory in politics in Hellas proper as well! OTL the Battle of Amphipolis was a decisive Spartan victory, here its ITTL equivalent was stated to have been something of a stalemate, leaving Athens free to continue at least some operations in the area and probably leaving them in a significantly position before the Peace of Nicias.
 
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[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
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phil03 said:
Its a risk, to be sure, but we don't know how things would evolve in the future. Hell, one of those might easily diffuse the matter for a good generation, and when they will come back up Eretria and her surroundings are gonna be a completely different. Yes, it might cause tensions inside the citizenry but, for all account, the city doesn't have much of those going on right now so we can probably manage it.

Refusing it might humble them but, even if it does, it will also probably cause an exodus that would drain our economic, political and military power.
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Accepting it will put us in same situation but worse, if we are to accept one of these demands they will certainly ask for more at next assembly where we will get either forced to accept, or refuse again.

I think that you are overestimating how much citizens are jealous abut their citizenship. Pushing things to far will result in backlash that will probably cost us more than any Metic drain.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
The power of the wealthy in Athenai is significantly reduced in the 4th century BCE, and we cease to hear of figures like Perikles with singular power in the city.

The lower class are able to wield significant power through the assembly, even if they are less prominent as individual figures themselves due to the lack of resources. Major institutions like juries and the ekklesia were dominated by the poorest citizens, and they could wield enormous power there, even if the formal realm of rhetoric was ruled by the wealthy and powerful. It is a continuum which includes, say, the middle Roman Republic, where Plebeians had their own institutions like the assembly with considerable power, but the truly poor were never in the driver's seat; instead, they influenced and decided who would be. Mary Beard has the right of it when she points out that although the Republic was never a people's republic, it was a popular one, in the sense that popularity mattered and leaders needed to curry favor and support from ordinary people if they wanted to remain prominent.
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Huh, you know after some further research it seems you were right and aristocrats were notably weakened in the aftermath of the war though I would be a bit more careful about ascribing that to the sortition and not other factors like loss of the war and thus influence and revenue. I certainly still feel comfortable describing even the mid republic as a oligarchy even if you say populist support was an important factor in gaining and keeping power. Still I feel it is important to point out here that the poor/lower classes we are talking about in both cases is largely limited to the urban poor while the poor of the countryside remained largely without influence (though exceptions of course happen with some Roman politicians managing some surprising feats due to it). Still I admit that while I feel comfortable in my education in regards to the period from the archaic age to the war the period after the war till Phillip/Alexander is something I seem to have inadvertently skipped mostly over (the only exception there that I can remember is the famous story about the ten thousand mercenaries stranded in Persia). Which is I guess why I am so often surprised by your stringent interpretation of stuff like citizens rights, mixing with local population etc. since in a lot of those issues greece was far more flexible both before and after this period.

(Though I still think you draw a bit too much inspiration from Athens itself which makes sense in regards to available sources and general narrative but in my opinion undervalues the uniqueness and often rather radical nature of Athens and its laws - for example the stringent law of limiting marriages to citizens was only implemented by Perikles himself which is why I find it a bit strange that we have it and that it seems to have already gained such universal standing/respect. I am to saying you should change it and it isn't liked you haven't allowed us to experiment with our social structure but as I said I sometimes feel like we are bound by traditions that are only becoming such during this period and which are often closely associated with Athens which for me personally isn't your standard greek city).
 
My fellow Eretrians! My brother Citizens! Listen! Head my words!

The Metics are like children.

I do not say such to insult their intellect, for some of those who were once Metics stand here in this Assembly as Citizens themselves!

No, I say such because, like children, they do not understand the value of patience, they want all things in the world to be theirs now, damn the consequences, damn the hurt and difficulties it could lay upon their parents or friends. For the things they ask are too much.

Should we pay off a great deal of debt? And this violate the Sacred Treasury? For that would be a risk, our attempts to save the people of Kymai from slaughter and protect our true children in the Adriatic assure this.

Should we allow them to buy property, give them the ability to work their way out of the tax that builds this cities backbone? Before we have managed to establish proper tribute and trade routes?

Should we allow them to violate the will of the Divine Marriage? To spit upon the principles of One People, One Law, One City? To allow them to elect a leader, who may wield their impulses separate from the influence of the Ekklesia?

No. Last time we gave them much, we saw them suffer and languish and we sought to reward and aid them. Now they come, expectant and eager for more and more and more.

When a child becomes too spoilt, the guilt lies with the parent. And it is in this way the Metics are like children. They have been snuck too many treats by a well meaning father, but now the child is fat and plump and openly disrespects and harms the family for the sake of their greed.

This is not malevolence, despite my dramatic rhetoric, but it is mere ignorance. When the child's greed becomes too much, they must be taught the way of the Hellene, one of wisdom, of patience.

Perhaps one day these requests will be filled. But for now?

No.

Let us teach them that this is Eretria, and such disunity will not be tolerated

So speaks Ajax, son of Lalage, if the Ekdromoi
Driven by Apathy said:
No it is not. It might be an impossible request at that specific moment, but that doesn't make it unreasonable of or unjustified. If we are truly dependent on exploiting the metics, then that is a weakness we must wean ourselves off as soon as this becomes possible.
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There have been multiple QM statements noting how utterly crucial the Metic tax is, further, 'weaning ourselves off it' is something we should've tried to do, in time, as in, when we have had the ability to create our trade routes and tributary Empire, not when we are expanding the military, doing a massively ambitious rescue mission and also just starting to establish trade dominance in the Adriatic. You essentially want to start to tear us away from the breast before we can eat solids. Which will lead to us become weaker than we should be.

The plan has always been to wean us off this reliance, but we need time to do so, and this will not give us that time.

You want justice and equality now? We can't, not when we're in this position. Such things take time and meta-planning. Rushing it only does more damage.

We already did a rush job with the Metics last time, now they're here coming back with proposals they know we'd hate because they're overconfident and cocky. Rush jobs lead to bad results, in history, and in this quest.
 
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[X] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[X] [Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Star said:
Accepting it will put us in same situation but worse, if we are to accept one of these demands they will certainly ask for more at next assembly where we will get either forced to accept, or refuse again.

I i think that you are overestimating how much citizens are jealous abut their citizenship. Pushing things to far will result in backlash that will probably cost us more than any Metic drain.
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I am not, but in spite of that citizens retain voting rights and a sling of other massive advantages, therefore we can probably deal with at least some backlash. Better then we can deal with say 30% of the metics leaving at any rate.

I also feel your assumption that they will automatically ask for massively more next time around is probably faulty. They themselves know they are getting close to the limit, hence why they feel like they need to precise they are only asking for one of those...
 
Cetashwayo said:
Rhegion occupies one of the most valuable trading locations in the Western Mediterranean at the straits of Messana and is a rapidly growing naval power. With 13,000 Adult Male Freemen, however, Rhegion has committed itself to being mostly a naval power in order to maintain its fleet of 25 Triremes.
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Cetashwayo said:
Lokri Expiphyrii is an Italiote city aligned with Syrakousai and Sparta in decline which nevertheless remains a formidable power among its neighbors, able to count on 9,000 Adult Male Freemen and a fleet of 15 Triremes.
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For reference, here are Rhegion and Lokiri Expiphyrii.

Huh, Lokiri Expiphyrii is aligned with Syracuse. Weakening a Syracuse-leaning city might be another benefit of getting Rhegion to wage war against them, and may further align Rhegion against Syracuse.
 
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phil03 said:
I am not, but in spite of that citizens retain voting rights and a sling of other massive advantages, therefore we can probably deal with at least some backlash. Better then we can deal with say 30% of the metics leaving at any rate.

I also feel your assumption that they will automatically ask for massively more next time around is probably faulty. They themselves know they are getting close to the limit, hence why they feel like they need to precise they are only asking for one of those...
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The idea that 30%, or even 10% of the population would abandon the city for not repealing taxes that have been in place for many years, 8 years after granting them a pile of increased rights, is silly.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Thats a huge overexaggeration. Most metic dont have the money to leave, those that do have their fortunes invested in the city, and there is only so much space in the colonies.
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They're isn't just the colonies to go. Sicily is not too far and I could see some of the police there help finance the transit of their new metics...

Honestly, I do agree we should have granted less demands last time around but here we are in a situation where we don't have any wiggle room, so to speak, either we grant one of those or we turn them back. Neither is a pleasant possibility but the former seem less apt at blowing in our faces, especially if we choose something that don't touch citizens right too much.

racnor said:
The idea that 30%, or even 10% of the population would abandon the city for not repealing taxes that have been in place for many years, 8 years after granting them a pile of increased rights, is silly.
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You are, of course, entitled to believe that. The fact remain that metics moving away has been stated to be a real danger since the first itteration of the quest AND the tensions with the metics have been stated to be high as it is, due to the debt crisis.
 
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phil03 said:
Sicily is not too far and I could see some of the police there help finance the transit of their new metics...
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They are free to do that, but again its not going to lead to mass exodus that you are being hysterical about. I can see it being a few %, which is nothing that we cannot handle. Eretria is already a pretty huge city anyways and our Infra is behind the curve.
 
Chimeraguard said:
Huh, Lokiri Expiphyrii is aligned with Syracuse. Weakening a Syracuse-leaning city might be another benefit of getting Rhegion to wage war against them, and may further align Rhegion against Syracuse.
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Eh, I would argue that at this point a free Lokiri is more useful to us than a subjugated one. Sure it would further weaken Syracuse and strengthen Rhegion, which despite my dislike of the city is in many ways an ideal ally for us, but it will also upset the fragile balance of power in southern italy and rob us of a useful bogeyman to convince others to ally with us while practically forcing us to pick sides between the various expansionist powers in the region. As long as Lokiri exists as a credible threat Krotone, Thurii and Co have a good reason to ally with us and a buffer between them, remove it and not only are they more secure and thus less in need of our potential help but also no longer kept away from each which leads to conflict between them and thus having to pick sides.
 
@Cetashwayo what in particular will annoy Krotone about a war between Rhegion and Lokri? Haven't Krotone and Lokri drifted apart over time, and couldn't Krotone take a bite from Lokri while they're occupied?
 
phil03 said:
Honestly, I do agree we should have granted less demands last time around but here we are in a situation where we don't have any wiggle room, so to speak, either we grant one of those or we turn them back.
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And then what do we do eight years from now, when we must grant one of the others as well? Or more likely, both, lest we face their wrath. Thinking that giving in now will make them less bold later is folly, eight years is plenty of time for them to rekindle their greed.
 
phil03 said:
especially if we choose something that don't touch citizens right too much.
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They all have massive consequences for the city, especially in the mid term, and the Metics know it. It notes in the update they know they're pushing their luck with how radical these reforms are and how bad these consequences could be for the city.

Essentially we have to choose, expensive temporary band aid during a period of increased spending, start the trigger that will allow the Metics to start reducing their tax, before we've gotten our tributary arrangements and trade routes fully sorted or give them a power base separate than us, with the last option telling them they've gone to far and denying them.

Either way, no option is without potentially critically damaging consequences
 
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