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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
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Aniketos the Philosopher:

[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

It is with a heavy heart that I come to speak to you today, citizens, for the kindness of Eretria Eschata had led to many grasping hands abusing our noble charity. In our compassion for the metics, many of whom live and work among us, we granted many of their small wishes to ease their hearts and lives. In our worry for Kymai, cousins of our city in spirit, we committed great expense both in talents and in influence to help them to safety. And yet do we receive words of thanks and the promise of a debt remembered? No, only further grumbling and dissatisfaction!

The metics now demand more lifeblood from our finances in a time of both trouble and growth, and to have the one favor we denied them religitated so soon afterwards. The people of Kymai seek special provisions for themselves which would destabilize the nascent colonial system we have created, even as we labor to save them and compromise with great powers to protect their interests. I say we must hold firm, and put down our feet upon these demands! Let our charity not become a yearly rent we must pay in money and influence, one that would strangle us as surely as a noose!

[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
 
Ironanvil1 said:
With the Messapii tribute, it'd be a 3.7 talent per turn net cost.
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If successful, and the reform you chose opens the door to more Metics reducing their tax.
Simon_Jester said:
I mean yes a little, but mostly no.

Eretria's entire economy and budget hinge on being able to fuck over the Metics pretty hard. Granted they're not slaves, but they are subject to very heavy discriminatory taxes and are legally barred from doing a lot of the things that people would normally be able to do to improve their lives.

It's a heavy exploitative burden we've plunked down on them. They quite understandably want it reduced.
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And for thirty years we managed to keep them down. We needed time to build up, reform, and we now don't have it.

We, excuse the crude example, blew our load too early, we needed to find a balance where we drip fed them enough to keep them placid until we had systems in place to deal with further big reforms.

We unfortunately don't and they're making moves and trying to force us down their route, it is even explicitly noted in the update they were emboldened by the success of the last reforms to get so daring and push so hard.
Rat King said:
I want it.
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No one IC does. And we'll likely never see it in the scope of this quest
 
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Horologer said:
Backing out now would make us look weak and unable to defend the people we've committed to defend. Not a good look to have when we're trying to convince the Messapii to become our vassals.
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How would it look to vorsen our relationship with Taras just after we repaired our ties with them, or set a double standards for our Leauge?

In case of the Messapii they really don't have much choice, we aren't convincing them, we are establishing well known fact that they are our vassals, because they are.
 
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The only hesitance I have in supporting washing our hands of Kymai is that in relitigating a decision we just made. That was before we knew Rhegion would be such dicks about it though, and before Kymai started making unreasonable demands. Basically it put us in a terrible situation, though it's partly our own fault for having alliances with the Thurii and Krotone at the same time, limiting our diplomatic options significantly.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Backing out of what? We offered to rescue them, they knocked us back. Fuck em.
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I didnt vote for the mission, but at this point it'd probably look unmanly of Eretria to simply walk away. Words will have already spread from Rhegion of our desire to evacuate them. So now its a question of prestige and face.

I would simply get this done with and avoid being too ambitious with it.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
USER PROPOSAL
Let Rhegion sack Kymai, go do something more useful.
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Not happening.

Look, people committed to this. You're going to see it through. The people of Kymai at the moment are in a state of confusion and panic and paranoia. Eretria has come from effectively nowhere, in their estimation, and offered them to go somewhere in the Adriatic. As the situation develops and the relationship is strengthened, the situation will stabilize.

DeAnno said:
The only hesitance I have in supporting washing our hands of Kymai is that in relitigating a decision we just made. That was before we knew Rhegion would be such dicks about it though, and before Kymai started making unreasonable demands. Basically it put us in a terrible situation, though it's partly our own fault for having alliances with the Thurii and Krotone at the same time, limiting our diplomatic options significantly.
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Rhegion wasn't really being a dick about it. They're offering to handle a lot of the evacuation themselves and cover much of your costs, you just need to give them a good offer as to why they should.
 
Deadly Snark said:
I didnt vote for the mission, but at this point it'd probably look unmanly of Eretria to simply walk away. Words will have already spread from Rhegion of our desire to evacuate them. So now its a question of prestige and face.

I would simply get this done with and avoid being too ambitious with it.
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So evacuate the ones who want to go under our rules right away, write the rest off to Rhegion, avoid having to spend our influence with other powers to keep them afloat.
If the horse doesn't want to drink, it can die on its own time.
 
I don't think we should raise tensions with Taras considering that we just ended a decades-long rivalry with them.
 
DeAnno said:
The only hesitance I have in supporting washing our hands of Kymai is that in relitigating a decision we just made. That was before we knew Rhegion would be such dicks about it though, and before Kymai started making unreasonable demands.
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I don't think it's unreasonably for the Kymaians to say "uh yeah, so in the main settlement you'd be relocating our people to, you're not going to insist that we let literally just anyone be a citizen of our polis just because they show up and hang around for a while, right?"

I mean, Eretria itself did not do that. We granted citizenship to everyone who showed up with the initial refugee fleet, and their descendants, and that's it. There were no small number of metics coming in, even in the first 20-25 years... and none of them are citizens.

It's one thing when we're talking about a new colony with an entirely new identity, but the core settlement we send the Kymaians to isn't that. It's New Kymai.

Basically it put us in a terrible situation, though it's partly our own fault for having alliances with the Thurii and Krotone at the same time, limiting our diplomatic options significantly.
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Do the terms of our alliance with Krotone forbid us from encouraging Rhegion to attack Lokri Epi-whatever?

Ironanvil1 said:
Backing out of what? We offered to rescue them, they knocked us back. Fuck em.
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What do you mean "knocked us back?" So far all they've done is say "we want some reasonable guarantee you're not going to pack our new refugee-o-polis full of former Epulian metics to the point where we're an ethnic minority in our own new polis."

gutza1 said:
I don't think we should raise tensions with Taras considering that we just ended a decades-long rivalry with them.
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I say we get Rhegion to attack Lokri Epi-whatever. Lokri Epi-whatever were jerks to us before. It'll annoy Krotone, but heck, if Rhegion attacks Krotone, we'll still help Krotone.
 
Well, we certainly have some difficult decisions to make. Accepting any of the metic demands could cause serious issues with our internal stability and encourage further problematic behavior but on the other hand they also represent a great opportunity to strengthen the metic class which could be useful down the line. I don't want to support the cultural divide and even without that ignoring the landbound metics doesn't sound that attractive, even if the ability to purchase property is an attractive one in my eyes that could further drive our urbanization ,which tends to have useful side benefits (and I don't think we can really afford the loss of revenue easily either if we want to so stuff like reform our military to strengthen the lower classes there). Paying the debt while common is also unattractive to me and while I understand saying no to the metics I like the idea of allowing them to elect their own leader.

Kymia is its own mess and I find none of the Rhegion options very attractive though I admit that keeping all those alliances was never that realistic anyhow. Krotone seems the easiest loss from a military perspective though the idea of a Rhegion + subjugated Lokri seems like a potential rival power to me. However Thurii is the upcoming power and elemental in any campgain against the Lucani down the line and I really would like to avoid upsetting Taras so soon after we mended bridges there (plus Taras seems set to become a useful rival of Rhegion which seems handy) in the end I will probably go with upsetting Thurii since that seems the route most likely to divert Rhegion northwards and thus bring it into conflict with the Lucani and Oscans. Though I am seriously tempted to "settle" the Kymains in Rhegion instead...

Speaking of Kymai, the situation is as I suspected and I still wonder if an ambitious military mission might not have been better (though good luck trying to pass through the street since Rhegion would probably not be that supportive of it). In regards to laws I actually favour making an exception for them since while it will likely cause issues down the line in League politics I think that such an approach would not only be key in convincing the Kymains to evacuate but also have the nice side benefit of limiting the kind of reckless expansion that plagues some of our other colonies. And I would rather avoid upsetting the natives there if we can avoid it.

Lastly in regards to the extra missions all of then seem useful and I wouldn't be that usually if either wins (though I admit that the histri one seems depended on pursuing a drakonid foreign policy next turn which while something I personally can get behind I doubt will win if the messapi question remains unanswered. ) Indeed while I personally think the venetia option is the most useful I will probably go with messapi option to solve that issue and make it easier to pursue a full drakonid foreign slate next turn which I hope will synergise nicely with the new harbour.
 
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I will not speak yet of the metic affairs, for others know more on those matters then I, except as to warn my fellow Eretrians of the dangers of refusing all the demands of the metics. They might not be citizens but they pay taxes to the polis, row in our triremes are at our side when the push of spears and shields come. Refusing all their demands would see them leaving the city in large numbers, causing great harm to Eretria.

''On the matter of Rhegion we are confronted with a series of unpleasant options: shall we endanger our recent reconciliation or risk alienate some of our allies?

Alienating Taras seem unwise, as no other cities in Italia and Epulia can claim of approaching Eretria's might in the same manner they do and, as importantly, their border sit alongside those of our tributaries, allowing them to hurt Eretria with more ease then Thurii and Krotone possibly could.

Therefore, is between angering Krotone and Thurri that we must choose and, while still powerfull, the former has already been surpassed by the latter, and we can only expect the balance to become increasingly unneven in Thurii favour in the future. Moreover, if we are to alienate one of our allies we mind as well weaken our only remaining true opening in the region: Lokri Epixephyrii.''

[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].

''While only a fool would look lightly at the tought of allowing a colony to make its own laws, unlike any others, I do believe it to be a necessary concession to Kimaians pride and a key step to convince most of its citizens of our intents and the road to safety we offer.''

[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].

''Without disputing the merits of attending to the Picentines or the Enetoi the crux of the matter remain that, as has already been said, waiting further to truly integrate the Messapii to our hegemonia risk alienating the Peuketii and allow the Messapii to grow ever more used to the present situation. Moreover, the uncertainty and the lack of institutions regulating the place of the Messapii in our hegemonia would facilitate the role of any who might want to plot against us, wheter Messappii unwilling to abide by the terms of Phaidros, outside rivals seeking to undermine Eretria or both.

Our southern flank must, at last, be secured.''

[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

So spoke Nikephoros the Hoplite, son of Lysandros.
 
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].

I'm surprised we even suggested employing the laws here. This is a transplant, not a colony.
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].

Just like a deme may be driven to beneficial change by the realization that its slate has no followers, so too must the metics be reminded that this behaviour is outragous. Even the tax reduction (a measure I voted for the harbor in the hope of eventually being able to push through after trade provides the wealth to offset it) is absurd in the context of this deficit and the emergency of kymai.

[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Simon_Jester said:
Do the terms of our alliance with Krotone forbid us from encouraging Rhegion to attack Lokri Epi-whatever?
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No, they don't.

To everyone worried about this leading to a war, I said "raise tensions". Not get a war declared on you. All of these options can compound the chance of alliances being broken or wars declared, in the long run, but it's only one part of a long decision chain.

Obviously people are running into the fundamental problems with keeping such a large alliance chain up. Eretria's good at diplomacy, and that was reflected here; Barnabas had a strong working relationship with the Eretrian proxenos, and that combined with Obander's prior visit made him very warmly greeted. But diplomacy cannot avoid military realities; Rhegion is a rising power and rising powers disrupt their region, and there's always a give and take in diplomatic relationships. Diplomacy is not a cheat card that allows you to avoid doing concrete and difficult choices, but it can soften the presentation of the choices and give you a soft landing in failure, as well as making overall relations better, even with those who become your enemies.

That is the actual advantage and a very big one, but I've never provided an indication that it allows Eretria to run around being friends with everyone. That's more of a quester meme, that you can say, diplomance your way into an Italiote League despite the very obvious obstacles in the way. These are the same obstacles that say, Taras faces; they can't diplomance their way into an Italiote League either, they can just exploit the neutral relationships with powers less inclined to you like Metapontion.
 
On another note I must say that, while the intros are always good, this one was particularly moving, and gave me something of a ''What have we done'' moment.

It probably has something to do with the fact that the QM from the same country then I and it is quite hard to not see the paralels with the most shamefull pages of Canada's history. :(
 
phil03 said:
On another note I must say that, while the intros are always good, this one was particularly moving, and gave me something of a ''What have we done'' moment.

It probably has something to do with the fact that the QM from the same country then I and it is quite hard to not see the paralels with the most shamefull pages of Canada's history. :(
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It was definitely drawn in part from that experience, yeah.
 
"I see some of my fellow citizens speak of uppityness, of having to keep down their lessers. Certainly those are valid words when referring to an outside enemy, threatening our fair city. But let me ask you, why would we wish to keep down those whose strength is part of our own and resort to bonds of oppression, when we instead might tighten the bonds of loyalty?

The Metics owe Eretria their loyalty, and in return they are owed treatment in accordance with the dignity bestowed by the gods on any civilized Greek. Tell me, how can we expect loyalty if we do not acknowledge that dignity? What reason has a man to feel love for a city which crushes him under a burden of taxes such that only Atlas might shoulder it, and in that respect almost treats him like a slave? What reason does he have to fight for it?

Let us remember that while the Metics are not citizens, they are nonetheless a part of Eretria, a part of that which makes us strong. It is unwise to oppress and overburden a necessary part of the whole if we wish for that whole to remain mighty and virtuous, and above all united.

And let me state this simple truth: To be taxed fairly is not an unreasonable request."

- Karenos the Hoplite


In OOC terms, I really don't think building Eretria's glory on the backs of an oppressed underclass (the existence of an underclass is unavoidable, but we shouldn't oppress them) is a sustainable model. That kind of thing is a weak point in any society. Give the metics a chance to be prosperous, an Eretrian dream, and they will be much less inclined to oppose the social order and much more supportive of it.


[x] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].

[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].

[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
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Driven by Apathy said:
And let me state this simple truth: To be taxed fairly is not an unreasonable request
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It most certainly is when the entire economic backbone of a nation relies on it, and the proposed measure is meant to begin undermining it, and the measure is being pushed in our faces when we already have a tight budget and we gave the Metics nearly everything they asked for last time.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
In OOC terms, I really don't think building Eretria's glory on the backs of an oppressed underclass (the existence of an underclass is unavoidable, but we shouldn't oppress them) is a sustainable model. That kind of thing is a weak point in any society. Give the metics a chance to be prosperous, an Eretrian dream, and they will be much less inclined to oppose the social order and much more supportive of it.
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OOC: I mean, horribleness aside, I dont think thats really correct? Slavery and oppressed underclasses were omnipresent in human history precisely because if done correctly its entirely sustainable. Like Sparta and the Helots, that is a terrible thing, but that system was sustained for a fair few centuries before all the wars ground Sparta into the ground.
 
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