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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Godwinson said:
Okay, that tile-tax is an ingenious approach to urban property taxation.
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Well, it has limitations. Cetashwayo mentioned this, but some Western European countries in the late medieval to early industrial transition period tried taxing dwellings by the number of doors and windows. He kind of understated the result, but from what I've read (not all the things admittedly) many homes were lightless, poorly ventilated messes architecturally. Here, we seem to have regulated away the obvious trick of not bothering to put tiles on the roof, but we can expect to see some perverse results. Some neutral, some potentially a drawback:

1) Anything that the local 'building code' allows to be built without a tile roof, as an extension or outbuilding, will be. We may thus have more shacks, lean-tos, and storage buildings with roofs of thatch or other materials. Could be a minor increase to fire hazards.

2) Financial incentives to build multi-story buildings and dig cellars; this would happen anyway as land inside the walls of Eretria becomes built-up, but it'll happen faster.

3) Incentives to live domestic lifestyles that, so far as possible, put parts of the household outdoors, possibly covered by temporary awnings when necessary- for example, one might imagine a house with its kitchen outdoors. Obviously this isn't very practical at all seasons, but it does save on tax money!

[There may be Eretrian comedy focusing on the advantages and disadvantages of this kind of lifestyle]
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
[x] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].
[x] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].[/QUOTE]
[x] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

"Fellow Citizens, I, Sideros, would speak to you.

Eretria seeks to extend our hegemony across the waters of the Adriatic, to set the foundations of our control of the many shores of that sea, yet many of you seem to view our setting of a colony in the islands as a solitary thing. For truly, if we were but selecting a single place to settle, Pharos would be superior.
But we are not. We instead seek to plant a seed that will take root and flower across the shores, and there Issa, close to us to receive our ships on the crossing, is the better starting point.

There too, should we place the former people of Lykai, to soothe their resentment with the citizenship of a new and growing place on our frontier, where yet they will require our stewardship to fend off the barbaroi.

With this great project underway, to make the Adriatic Eretrian, it is with regret that I must speak against the enthusiastic plans to evacuate Kymai. It would be a grand gesture, a thing of legend, to whisk a whole city from the maw of the barbaroi to safety, but I fear it is beyond our means to pluck so many from so far away, when so much demands our attention nearer at home.
The Dauni cry our for our aid to liberate them from the cruelty of their King, and bring them under our kind rule, as we have their kin the Messapii and Peuketti. Should we deny them, to seek to draw away the people of Kymai who have not even sought our aid?
The Kymai are distant kin of Old Eretria, aye, but we have made the Iapyges our wards, fought shoulder to shoulder with their warriors, mixed our shed blood with theirs, celebrated our festivals and worshipped our gods together.

I say that we look to the future that clamours for our aid, not the silent past that some would have us scrabble to dig up."
 
New
[x] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].
[x] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[x] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]

I think we probably have to try and save the population of Kymai if we want our Epulian league to be truly relevant, and for Eretria to really blossom into a regional hegemon. The Delian League, one of two greatest powers in Greek history so far has a total population of 1.6 million as Cetashwayo stated- we have less than a tenth that in the Epulian league. Now it's obviously unreasonable to expect us to approach that number soon and we have barbaroi allies unaccounted for- but it's still a huge gap. And it paints a vivid picture of what kind of population base a fully realized Sicily might be able to levy, and how disastrous that would be for the balance of power.

Kymai promises a massive influx of skilled and loyal citizens to the league as a whole and will stand as a testament of the lengths Eretria is willing to go for it's friends and make the Epulian League as a whole see Eretria's domination of the league in a kinder light.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
It's not in Magna Graecia, but I've been playing the mod Fires of War, which is set in Hellas during the Greco-Persian War. It's not the same, but it helps put me in the mindset for participating in this quest.
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I'll have to look it up. I've been too busy uniting the Northlands as the Kingdom of Prydain in Warband at the moment and I'm running out of easy opposition to steamroll with quick sieges.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]

Switching my Lykai vote, so that way they will at least still be citizens of their new home cities.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

The Lykai are at least fellow Greeks and will counterbalance the larger indigenous population at Pharos.

@Cetashwayo Not sure if it was answered yet, but how much of the 50 talents are we giving the Enetoi? Or are the 50 already the remaining money after giving them their part?
 
Could somebody explain the reasoning behind settling the Lykaians in our new colony? It seems utterly mad.

You think they'd make trouble if we split them up? That's nothing compared to the trouble they can make if they form the majority of the population. And they'd be quite close to a Kerkyran colony, meaning instead of having to rebel on their own they could instead defect to a peer power. I wouldn't be surprised if this costs us our colony.

If you're so worried about them poisoning the league against us, the correct move would be to keep them in Eretria, where they'd be a small minority.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Could somebody explain the reasoning behind settling the Lykaians in our new colony? It seems utterly mad.

You think they'd make trouble if we split them up? That's nothing compared to the trouble they can make if they form the majority of the population. And they'd be quite close to a Kerkyran colony, meaning instead of having to rebel on their own they could instead defect to a peer power. I wouldn't be surprised if this costs us our colony.

If you're so worried about them poisoning the league against us, the correct move would be to keep them in Eretria, where they'd be a small minority.
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Basically, my reasoning for it is that if they're not stripped of citizen-rights, they will have less of a grudge than they would have if we turned them into metics with this move. Certainly not no grudge, but less of a grudge.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Poskipon was very pleased by the news that Eretria had just completed a temple to Poseidon, though he was not entirely sure of the relation to Demeter and raised an eyebrow when it was explained by Mnemnon, in his excitement, that the Enetian lagoon was actually created by Demeter and Poseidon. Poskipon insisted that the lagoon had actually been Nehtuns flooding the region to defeat an ancient sea monster, though Obander became confused as to why a sea monster would be troubled by a flood of water, but then Poskipon laughed and said he had meant a sperm monster, and when Obander became mortified, corrected it again to snake monster, which made far more sense for everyone involved, though did little to stop Mnemnon from laughing hysterically at the crude joke, given as he was to such humor.
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Man, Poseidon's got some serious volume loaded in his trident.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Could somebody explain the reasoning behind settling the Lykaians in our new colony? It seems utterly mad.

You think they'd make trouble if we split them up? That's nothing compared to the trouble they can make if they form the majority of the population.
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Firstly, they'd still be a small population of Hellenes surrounded by a much larger and hostile population of Liburnii. The need to maintain security and build a new colony completely from scratch for survival would tend to distract them somewhat from acting on any vendetta against us, at least for the first few years.

After those first few years, the situation changes because we're likely to have quite a lot of colonists from Epulian League city-states pouring into our main colony in the Adriatic Dodecanese. The population of Kymai will be heavily diluted and less able to betray the city as time passes, and a new identity ("us in the new polis versus the Liburnii and Dalmatians who live nearby") is likely to form as opposed to the old identity ("us Kymai citizens versus these Epulian fuckers who sold our polis out to the Tarentines").

There's some risk of them defecting to Kerkyran control, and that could cause future trouble- but then, the alternative is to have disaffected communities of second-class citizens in ALL our cities that would love even more to sell us out to Kerkyra, or for that matter anyone else. Ultimately, we can lose that one colony without disaster- we're already going to have a second 'backup' colony in the area, plus discussion of other sites for the near future.

If you're so worried about them poisoning the league against us, the correct move would be to keep them in Eretria, where they'd be a small minority.
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The trouble is, they then represent a substantial group that has the potential to betray Eretria specifically to outside enemies. Like, in a position to set fire to our granaries during a siege, or to give enemies intelligence on our military plans and preparations.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Could somebody explain the reasoning behind settling the Lykaians in our new colony? It seems utterly mad.

You think they'd make trouble if we split them up? That's nothing compared to the trouble they can make if they form the majority of the population. And they'd be quite close to a Kerkyran colony, meaning instead of having to rebel on their own they could instead defect to a peer power. I wouldn't be surprised if this costs us our colony.

If you're so worried about them poisoning the league against us, the correct move would be to keep them in Eretria, where they'd be a small minority.
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In Eretria they could serve as a fifth column, if we were to come under siege. Setting fire to our granaries, or opening the gates to our enemies. In the Epulian League, they could become a faction of metics who agitate against us, forcing the league to yank on their veto chain more and more often to annoy us. With the colonies, they are still a minority, they get one, maybe two votes for a veto and would require a super-majority as such, and if they defected to Kerkyra they would likely lose this veto and face a harder yoke still. Meanwhile they would require our patronage to protect them from the Liburnians. It will take time for Kerkyra to recover from its stasis, and its obligations to the Delian League. All the while the Lykians, now the Pharosites, will grow used to our light hand, wise leadership, and privilege that we offer all who join our league. Other colonists will flood in to settle and become citizens as well during this time.

They will be diluted. Even if we settle the Kymaians elsewhere, they will be a minority, if a significant one, in our new colony. Ideally their grudge will lessen, for their station in life was not threatened by us uprooting them. They are still citizens, they were simply forced to leave their old homes, instead of being forced out, and then demoted.

They will have less to gripe about, and will grow content in their new position, with new lands for them to farm and a wise and kind master.
 
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