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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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If they rebel in a new colony, we have an excuse to retake their city and kill them all. Only Athens could save them given the effects of the sheer brutality of the late civil war on Kerkyra, and Athens has bigger fish to fry.
 
Cavalier said:
Honestly I'd say it's pretty mediocre compared to like Sophocles or Euripides, and doesn't even really follow the (later) "unities" of play structure laid out by Aristotle. Of course the full formal strictures of Attic theater have yet to be established and it's Alexis' first submitted play so we can be generous there.

It's something of an attempt to cast a new Eretrian founding mythos, building on recent events and using the mythic past as a way of legitimizing the discourse. There are some very, very obvious Eretrian touches in there. It's not particularly subtle. More so than the Eusebiad, and can be performed as a more universal story, but it's basically a narrative about Eretria's relationship to the natives. The bad evil natives conspired to kill the exiles by treachery and were justly punished by the gods. The good, proper, submissive natives were freed and uplifted by Hellene intervention. It's only a few steps removed from the mission civilisatrice, though that puts it in opposition to the brutal settler ideology that sees displacing the natives with Hellene settlers as a natural right of the strong over the weak.
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One idea that came to me for some reason, and your prologue reminded me of, was that Eretria would have access to the Telegony and perhaps some sequel or alternate to that of its own devising, and it would be a big deal because of the tenuous possible Italian connections. As a result Telegonus (or possibly Telemachus) is actually weirdly more prominent than Odysseus in Eretria. So much so that he is usually referred to in Eretrian literature simply as the father of Telegonus or Telemachus.

This would make Odysseus the Eretrian version of Boruto's Dad.
 
I am not sure how this work but I would like to propose that we exile Irenaeos and his supporters/accomplices for at least a decade for their actions during the Liburnian campaign to follow the footsteps of wise Herodion and redeem himself and the honor of the sacred band.

So I guess I am looking for people to lift my rock?

[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in Eretria [+800 Metics in Eretria, citizen ratio falls accordingly].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Simon_Jester said:
Firstly, they'd still be a small population of Hellenes surrounded by a much larger and hostile population of Liburnii. The need to maintain security and build a new colony completely from scratch for survival would tend to distract them somewhat from acting on any vendetta against us, at least for the first few years.

After those first few years, the situation changes because we're likely to have quite a lot of colonists from Epulian League city-states pouring into our main colony in the Adriatic Dodecanese. The population of Kymai will be heavily diluted and less able to betray the city as time passes, and a new identity ("us in the new polis versus the Liburnii and Dalmatians who live nearby") is likely to form as opposed to the old identity ("us Kymai citizens versus these Epulian fuckers who sold our polis out to the Tarentines").

There's some risk of them defecting to Kerkyran control, and that could cause future trouble- but then, the alternative is to have disaffected communities of second-class citizens in ALL our cities that would love even more to sell us out to Kerkyra, or for that matter anyone else. Ultimately, we can lose that one colony without disaster- we're already going to have a second 'backup' colony in the area, plus discussion of other sites for the near future.

The trouble is, they then represent a substantial group that has the potential to betray Eretria specifically to outside enemies. Like, in a position to set fire to our granaries during a siege, or to give enemies intelligence on our military plans and preparations.
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I think you confused Kymai with Lykai?


Regarding the discussion in general:
I feel some here massively overstate the risk of a hundred upset metics in each League polis. Splitting them up is in essence the low risk, low reward option. Keeping them all in Eretria is the (somewhat smaller and more hostile) equivalent of a skilled immigration wave, and the Illyrian choice gives us a massive boost to our new colonies. Both of these choices have clear medium term drawbacks (increased Metic agitation & disloyal colonies). Meanwhile, the Epulian choice offers only marginal benefits in the exchange for slightly increased levels of unhappiness in our League.

This is not to say, that I disagree with the Illyrian placement. Since we are going for Pharos, the more dangerous island, and have decided to allow unrestricted migration, the risks of open revolt against Eretria are definitely manageable. Giving them citizenship also plays quite nicely into our image of benevolent overlord.
 
Erandil said:
I am not sure how this work but I would like to propose that we exile Irenaeos and his supporters/accomplices for at least a decade for their actions during the Liburnian campaign to follow the footsteps of wise Herodion and redeem himself and the honor of the sacred band.

So I guess I am looking for people to lift my rock?

[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in Eretria [+800 Metics in Eretria, citizen ratio falls accordingly].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
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I see no need to exile Irenaeos -- his embarrassment in front of the whole of the city is justice enough for his actions.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
One idea that came to me for some reason, and your prologue reminded me of, was that Eretria would have access to the Telegony and perhaps some sequel or alternate to that of its own devising, and it would be a big deal because of the tenuous possible Italian connections. As a result Telegonus (or possibly Telemachus) is actually weirdly more prominent than Odysseus in Eretria. So much so that he is usually referred to in Eretrian literature simply as the father of Telegonus or Telemachus.

This would make Odysseus the Eretrian version of Boruto's Dad.
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Telegonus and Telemachus being our Remus and Romulus would be interesting. Even if they are the weirdest brothers in Greek mythology bar the Sons of Cronus.
 
Godwinson said:
I see no need to exile Irenaeos -- his embarrassment in front of the whole of the city is justice enough for his actions.
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I wouldn't say that political irrelevance in the near future is justice enough for committing war-crimes but even ignoring that I think the fact that he was in a leadership role of our sacred band and that part of that band joined him in his actions and celebrated his idea of executing helpless prisoners makes it necessary to send a stronger statement or risk such ideas getting a hold in our elite military troop. After all the simple nature of the ekdromoi as a military elite makes them far more susceptible to dangerous ideas like power trumps anything and victory at any cost. It is to them I want to send a message to ensure that such an ideology won't be tolerated.
 
Erandil said:
I am not sure how this work but I would like to propose that we exile Irenaeos and his supporters/accomplices for at least a decade for their actions during the Liburnian campaign to follow the footsteps of wise Herodion and redeem himself and the honor of the sacred band.

So I guess I am looking for people to lift my rock?

[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in Eretria [+800 Metics in Eretria, citizen ratio falls accordingly].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
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And I hope you are incredibly strong.

EDIT: The lessons imparted to us from the dialogue apply to Irenaeos just as much as they apply to the Liburnians. Iraenaeos was hurting. The campaign cost him the life of his dearest brother. it cost him the lives of the rowers and Ekdramoi who served beside him, fellow citizens all and the best and noblest we have to offer up. Each of them worth a hundred Liburnian pirates.

Even then, his actions were not just. He slew prisoners in our charge upon the eve of the sacred peace. The Gods have not seen fit to strike him down for this transgression, nor has Hades summoned him to his dark realm, nor has Poseidon overturned his vessel. Instead he was punished before the whole polis and humiliated.

He is hurting. The Liburnians were hurting. He is just a man, so too are the Liburnians. Given as he was to his grief and passion, his punishment is punishment enough. Mayhap years hence he might return to us, wiser and gentler, but for now he leaves with his embarrassment. Let us not send him away from the polis to suffer all the more far from home in foreign and strange lands.
 
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Erandil said:
I wouldn't say that political irrelevance in the near future is justice enough for committing war-crimes but even ignoring that I think the fact that he was in a leadership role of our sacred band and that part of that band joined him in his actions and celebrated his idea of executing helpless prisoners makes it necessary to send a stronger statement or risk such ideas getting a hold in our elite military troop. After all the simple nature of the ekdromoi as a military elite makes them far more susceptible to dangerous ideas like power trumps anything and victory at any cost. It is to them I want to send a message to ensure that such an ideology won't be tolerated.
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I agree that I dislike the idea of him keeping his position after the next election, however, he has been utterly embarrassed, not only in front of the city, but also in front of his own soldiers, by the most respected military leader in Eretria in the moment.

Linos sits permanently on the council of Strategoi at the moment, and has led the city to two great victories, where the Ekdromoi were allowed to win great glories, as well as having experience for far longer in the navy as a pirate hunter, and I would remind you our Ekdromoi often act as Marines for the Navy. So Linos, who just styled over this dude, has just as strong a connection as the bloke who got publicly, permanently and famously shamed and disrespected, to our military, and had more of a reputation by far at this point. Not to mention most of the soldiers are still citizens, and it's ingrained in our culture that the Head of the Ekdromoi and Kleos Exoria is unofficially restricted from active politics.
 
McLuvin said:
I agree that I dislike the idea of him keeping his position after the next election, however, he has been utterly embarrassed, not only in front of the city, but also in front of his own soldiers, by the most respected military leader in Eretria in the moment.
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Dude, he resigned before the end of the year.
Cetashwayo said:
The piece, almost certainly not a factual description of what occurred according to eyewitnesses, was nevertheless true in that afterwards Irenaeos left the prisoners alone, and per the terms of the peace they were given back to the Liburnians. At last, they sued for peace and conceded, ending the war. Linos' dialogue was circulated soon after, in a clear show of political dominance, and perhaps even sent first to Athenagoras Symmachos to distribute to the city. It was important not in how it showed Linos as obviously correct, but that it confronted for the first time in Eretria the subject of a just war, and the tension between the twin traditions of mercy in peace and grave destruction in war that the city carried since its founding. From this seed, planted to grow a political fruit, perhaos one day a philosophical discourse could sprout to argue this crucial question. For now, it served mostly to be the end of Irenaeos' political career, and despite his successes he resigned his post as strategos before the end of the year, unable to get his own version out and with the Exoria embarassed by his rhetoric and poor public image.
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Professor Vesca said:
And I hope you are incredibly strong.

EDIT: The lessons imparted to us from the dialogue apply to Irenaeos just as much as they apply to the Liburnians. Iraenaeos was hurting. The campaign cost him the life of his dearest brother. it cost him the lives of the rowers and Ekdramoi who served beside him, fellow citizens all and the best and noblest we have to offer up. Each of them worth a hundred Liburnian pirates.

Even then, his actions were not just. He slew prisoners in our charge upon the eve of the sacred peace. The Gods have not seen fit to strike him down for this transgression, nor has Hades summoned him to his dark realm, nor has Poseidon overturned his vessel. Instead he was punished before the whole polis and humiliated.

He is hurting. The Liburnians were hurting. He is just a man, so too are the Liburnians. Given as he was to his grief and passion, his punishment is punishment enough. Mayhap years hence he might return to us, wiser and gentler, but for now he leaves with his embarrassment. Let us not send him away from the polis to suffer all the more far from home in foreign and strange lands.
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He transgressed long before he was suffering and indulged in brutality and behaviour most unfitting for a greek, especially one trusted with a position of leadership, from the very start of the campaign becoming a negative example to his soldiers and resulting in other good men abandoning the teachings of the gods and the laws of city to behave like barbarians. And lets not forget that he is far from the only one to lose friends in family in a conflict but that others in his position remained true to our virtues and laws instead of abandoning them. The ekdromoi and the exoria are supposed to be the best of us and the leaders of the band the best of the best and yet we are supposed to forgive him and ignore his actions? I think you set a very dangerous precedent here. Note how neither band really distances itself from his actions itself and only cites his bad handling of the discussion as reason to distance themselves from him,.
 
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Droman said:
Telegonus and Telemachus being our Remus and Romulus would be interesting. Even if they are the weirdest brothers in Greek mythology bar the Sons of Cronus.
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Honestly that's an incredible idea.

There could be a whole sequel to the Odyssey premised around their adventures together in the West, as brothers. Also maybe more prominent roles for Penelope and Circe, which would both emphasize Eretria's focus on marriage, and also mythical MILFs apparently.
 
The thought occurs that if Kymai can hold out for three years at present, we can work on a slightly more involved plan.

What I'm thinking is that if we can settle the Dauni issue in a single campaign season, that still leaves us with two years to deal with the Kymai situation. Which can best be accomplished, I think, by a combination of two things: a campaign of raids against the Oscan homeland (i.e. the Samnites) specifically targeting their food supplies and store of wealth all in one go by stealing their livestock, and removing the women and portable wealth of Kymai to another location.

At no point do we engage the Oscans in a straight-up field battle. Our goal here is simply to disrupt the siege and thus buy more time to evacuate Kymai, and to make the experience as miserable for the Oscans as possible. Ideally, if we can somehow completely evacuate everything but fighting men and rations from Kymai, we can then offer a parley with the Oscans that lets them know there's no longer any actual profit for them in trying to take the city and get them to abandon the siege for long enough to also evacuate Kymai's remaining fighting men to their new homes.

Now if we want to be real assholes, we can try to find some way to use the Samnites against the Dauni. Best bet there would be to start saber-rattling along the border and encourage the friendlier Dauni cities to make noises of serious discontent, then once the Dauni king moves soldiers in our general direction we let the Samnites know (via Peuketii intermediaries, most likely) that the cities of Auscula, Vibini and Aecae are all ripe for the plucking. With the Dauni cities most likely to be problematic for us crushed, including the king's own city, bringing the rest under our sway should be easy. Especially when we can then offer protection from marauding Samnites.

This would also draw off some of the potential reinforcements for the Oscans currently besieging Kymai, making that situation a bit easier to handle as well.
 
The Sandman said:
What I'm thinking is that if we can settle the Dauni issue in a single campaign season, that still leaves us with two years to deal with the Kymai situation. Which can best be accomplished, I think, by a combination of two things: a campaign of raids against the Oscan homeland (i.e. the Samnites) specifically targeting their food supplies and store of wealth all in one go by stealing their livestock, and removing the women and portable wealth of Kymai to another location.
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What exactly makes you so confident that we won't suffer from a very similar problem to the Oscans and have to besiege at least some cities which will likely take quite a bit longer than a single season. And attacking the Samnites on their hometurf is not only what kills armies but also unlikely to affects the Oscans in any meaningful manner since it is not like they receive a constant stream of supplies from their mountainous brethrem.
 
Erandil said:
He transgressed long before he was suffering and indulged in brutality and behaviour most unfitting for a greek, especially one trusted with a position of leadership, from the very start of the campaign becoming a negative example to his soldiers and resulting in other good men abandoning the teachings of the gods and the laws of city to behave like barbarians. And lets not forget that he is far from the only one to lose friends in family in a conflict but that others in his position remained true to our virtues and laws instead of abandoning them. The ekdromoi and the exoria are supposed to be the best of us and the leaders of the band the best of the best and yet we are supposed to forgive him and ignore his actions? I think you set a very dangerous precedent here.
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We have not forgiven him, never again will he participate in politics except mayhap years and years and years from now, older and wiser for it too. But his actions alone are not worthy of forced exile, that we might cast him, a citizen, from the city. Unless you are willing to rob him of his birthright, his citizenship, a move I would protest and oppose vigorously, he is entitled to dwell among us.

He has no position of honor among the strategos, he will never lead the Sacred Ekdromoi again, he has been cast out from his deme. He is humiliated amongst all the citizenry, never again can he go to market without someone remarking upon it. Now he must send a servant or a slave. This, is punishment enough. Lest the Gods see fit to strike him down, we too must extend our understanding to him.

What he did was wrong. What he did was impious. What he did was punished. But he was hurting, but he lost a brother to the Liburnian pirates. Had they but put away their piracy, we would not have the southern islands. His brother would not have died. Their actions brought us here, their trespass brought our wrothful hand against them. This campaign cost him the life of his kin.

Is it no surprise that he was given over to passion? That rage warped his thoughts and turned him toward impious deeds and defilements and atrocities? He is a citizen, he is a brother to us. We must punish him, yes, and we have, but we must also be understanding and compassionate.

Would any of us be any less given to grief and anger were one of our beloved kin struck down by the thoughtless and uncaring actions of barbaroi?
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Look, all I'm saying is that if we can ensure that millennia later, students will still be reading and writing about the story of two brothers who are each married to their sibling's mum, then I for one will declare Mission Accomplished.
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The fact that at the end of this story the two brothers end up marrying the other's mother seems to me like a real Eretrian take on the tale. The idea that all stories written by Eretrians ends up including at least one marriage in it to honor the Divine Union tickles me pink.

And of course, later down the line, when all sorts of experts are piecing together the myths and tales of the past, the marriage thing will end up being Eretria's mark. A marriage happens in the story? Probably an Eretrian story then.
 
The Sandman said:
The thought occurs that if Kymai can hold out for three years at present, we can work on a slightly more involved plan.

What I'm thinking is that if we can settle the Dauni issue in a single campaign season, that still leaves us with two years to deal with the Kymai situation. Which can best be accomplished, I think, by a combination of two things: a campaign of raids against the Oscan homeland (i.e. the Samnites) specifically targeting their food supplies and store of wealth all in one go by stealing their livestock, and removing the women and portable wealth of Kymai to another location.

At no point do we engage the Oscans in a straight-up field battle. Our goal here is simply to disrupt the siege and thus buy more time to evacuate Kymai, and to make the experience as miserable for the Oscans as possible. Ideally, if we can somehow completely evacuate everything but fighting men and rations from Kymai, we can then offer a parley with the Oscans that lets them know there's no longer any actual profit for them in trying to take the city and get them to abandon the siege for long enough to also evacuate Kymai's remaining fighting men to their new homes.

Now if we want to be real assholes, we can try to find some way to use the Samnites against the Dauni. Best bet there would be to start saber-rattling along the border and encourage the friendlier Dauni cities to make noises of serious discontent, then once the Dauni king moves soldiers in our general direction we let the Samnites know (via Peuketii intermediaries, most likely) that the cities of Auscula, Vibini and Aecae are all ripe for the plucking. With the Dauni cities most likely to be problematic for us crushed, including the king's own city, bringing the rest under our sway should be easy. Especially when we can then offer protection from marauding Samnites.

This would also draw off some of the potential reinforcements for the Oscans currently besieging Kymai, making that situation a bit easier to handle as well.
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The problem is that if I understand the sheperds attack ing Kymai are on a sacred war and the Samnites aren't a unified entity. The attackers basicly the surplus population, their aim is to take a new land and form their territory. So attacking the tribes interior is good only to gain their emnity but don't effect the siege.
 
Lets be clear here. While what Ireanos was wrong. By the standards of the time he isnt off his rocks loose cannon.

As Cetash has made a point to inform us, ancient warfare amongst the Greeks was a bloody thing. Where it was less about winning and more about massacring your enemies, depriving them of their manpower and thus insure that they cant never harm you again. This is exactly what we and Tara's did to the Peuketti and the Messapii, depleting their manpower to such an extend that they were forced to kneel or die.

Linos's position is a very just one. One that we inherently sympathize with. He is also very obviously being a manipulative politician. His dialogue was clearly designed to tap into Drako's words at the end of the Iapyian war. But where Drako was moved by sincere empathy. Linos was moved by both military reality and political acumen. Because while what Ireanos did was wrong, the propganda Campaign by Linos that forced him out hurts Eretria for the sake of his own glory. As it lost us the service of a proven general and all but assured Linos the complete control of the navy at a time period of titans clashing.

But the point is that Drakonid ads aside. There is a reason we were told the dialogue is going to be important. Not because of right or wrong but because it touches upon the deeply divisive founding of Eretria and the hypocrisy of our beliefs. Where Ireanos represents Herodion, Eusebios and Antipater in their adherence to the rule of blood. While Linos is the heir to Drako.

Exiling Ireanos is not only pointless and loses us a commander perhaps permanently it also misses the point. Exiling him won't make the seeds of philosophy grow. It will just exasperate the situation and create a divide.
 
Erandil said:
What exactly makes you so confident that we won't suffer from a very similar problem to the Oscans and have to besiege at least some cities which will likely take quite a bit longer than a single season. And attacking the Samnites on their hometurf is not only what kills armies but also unlikely to affects the Oscans in any meaningful manner since it is not like they receive a constant stream of supplies from their mountainous brethrem.
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Because the point isn't to besiege the cities, it's to loot the countryside and keep moving west towards Campania? And I'm assuming the Oscans might care just a bit if they hear that their homeland is getting trashed. It also means that when we get to Campania and can start going after Oscan food supplies directly, they won't be able to ask for help from home to replace whatever we steal or burn.

SneakySnek said:
The problem is that if I understand the sheperds attack ing Kymai are on a sacred war and the Samnites aren't a unified entity. The attackers basicly the surplus population, their aim is to take a new land and form their territory. So attacking the tribes interior is good only to gain their emnity but don't effect the siege.
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Well mainly it's that we need to cross Samnite territory anyway in order to reach Campania by land, so while we're there we might as well forage for supplies instead of having to bring a vulnerable baggage train. But I also figure that the Oscans down in Campania won't be able to freely ignore what we're doing to their old homes and the families left behind there without consequences for their morale and internal unity.
 
The Sandman said:
Because the point isn't to besiege the cities, it's to loot the countryside and keep moving west towards Campania? And I'm assuming the Oscans might care just a bit if they hear that their homeland is getting trashed. It also means that when we get to Campania and can start going after Oscan food supplies directly, they won't be able to ask for help from home to replace whatever we steal or burn.


Well mainly it's that we need to cross Samnite territory anyway in order to reach Campania by land, so while we're there we might as well forage for supplies instead of having to bring a vulnerable baggage train. But I also figure that the Oscans down in Campania won't be able to freely ignore what we're doing to their old homes and the families left behind there without consequences for their morale and internal unity.
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That sounds like a terrible plan.

We dont know the territory of the campanian plain. We know the territory of the Oscans even less. You want to send our Kleos Exoria into unscouted territory on the far side of Italia and have them wander around hoping they run into villages and towns where the food is in a place that they can actually get to? You also want to hope that they are not pinned in a valley or canyon where the only way out for them is through the army that just bottled them up and is now advancing on their rear.

You don't know where the towns and villages are located, you don't know how and where they keep their food supplies, you don't know if the food supplies is in a form that can actually be used by the cavalry, you don't know the terrain and where the passes are or where an Oscan force can get behind us and trap us. You have no way of actually getting the cavalry back once you send them off because you would need them to return to a pickup point at a specific time and place. You would also need them to not be chased around by an army at that point so that we actually have time to load the horses and men onto our ships and not be swarmed by people on the beach.
 
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