On Kerkyra ...?

Our Expenses on Salaries & Subsidies went from 17 to 21 Talents, even though the original price tag for the Office of Barbarian Commerce was 3 Talents per turn.

On the map Hyria is still the cultural center of the Messapii. Is this something we can expect to change now that we elevated Artahias of Neriton?

Thanks for these little corrections. I had wanted to get the update out yesterday and so I did rush some of the minor stuff, which led to little mistakes like this.

It's on Kerkyra. Fixed. The expenses issue is fixed.

On Hyria and Neriton, possibly, though it may require a Canosa-esque purge.

@Cetashwayo, what are the Sicels, Sycani and Elymi doing?

Are they also joining the conference? Are they interested in joining an Anti-Syracuse alliance?

Also, is Morgantina a Greek city or a Sicel city in your quest?

The native Sicilians are not treated on the same level of the Hellenes. In fact, the Sicels performed an attempted rebellion against the domination of the coastal Greeks a little more than a decade ago under a new king, Ducetius, and were utterly trounced. The Elymi are hellenized and spend most of their time attempting to defend their territory from the expansion of Selinous. The Sikani are far enough inland, and with enough territory that isn't very valuable, that they aren't much of a target. The Sicels are often employed by different factions to attack the others, but they're not a part of Sicilian diplomacy.

In this case Morgantina is Sicel.

I propose we call from now on a Thalassa Strategos who can lead the fight on the seas in case war comes and we need to fight anyone's navy!

Entirely pointless, given the city can just appoint a strategos to do this in an emergency. The separate position of navarch or admiral tended to be more common in states that didn't have a large naval tradition; both Athenai and Eretria appoint strategoi to lead their navies now.

In fact, go to Rhegion first and say that to them before going to Lokri with the alliance proposal! Giving Rhegion advance warning and consulting with them about it should lessen any hard feelings on Rhegion's part!

Skipping Lokri to go to Rhegion would be awkward given Obander is hugging the coast the whole time, and the Lokrians would have heard of him going to Rhegion first, begging the question as to why he skipped them and creating unnecessary distrust.

@Cetashwayo, a question regarding something in your FAQ.

You explained many cities tightened citizenship rules to make it so both parents had to be citizens. You also explained only Greeks can be citizens. But what is Eretria's specific rule on Citizenship and on the requirements for attaining Metic status? Are we an exact copy of Athens in that, with exception in case of letting heroic metics become citizens? Or is there something else?

Can heroic non-Greek metics become citizens in Eretria? Can someone with a non-Greek metic mother and a citizen father be a citizen? Or is citizenship in case of citizen-metic offspring only applicable if the metic mother is an ethnic Greek?

Eretria has two-parent citizenship, making it effectively only heritable by the children of citizen-citizen marriages. Also, Athenai did allow heroic Metics to become citizens.

Any metic can become a citizen if they're heroic enough, but they cannot marry into citizenship.
 
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Both we and the Sikeliotes are broadly friendly to Rhegion right now. Us opening up an unnecessary rift there by seeming to favour one over the other is the unwise bit going into the Conference. Get past that Conference, and we're all on the same side versus Syracuse, a minor kerfuffle over who's our Bestest Best Friend can be smoothed over more easily.

The optics of us being magnanimous and gifting Thurii and entire city, making them look churlish if they complain about us allying with Krotone, are also rather different to us having to bring up that grant of a city in future to defray the alliance, making it far more transactional and debt based than we really want our relationships to be.

Allying with Krotone now also should aid adding Rhegion later, as the Lokrians are the primary land threat towards them, one countered by Krotone on the far side.
Favoring one over the other is the current state of things. And my understand is that being on the same side versus Syracuse is the ONLY reason they are able to trust eachother at all, since it's apparently common knowledge here that the league wants to crush them to take control over the strait. The rift at the conference we shut by taking that option off the table is much bigger than the one we open.
 
@Cetashwayo Glad to be of assistance! You missed my last question in that post though:
Syrakousai has 10,000 men and 35 ships. Gela has 6,000 men and 15 ships and Akragas has 7,000 men and 25 ships.

The Sikeliote League has 8,000 men and 15 ships. Rhegion has 2,500 men and 25 ships. Eretria Eskhata has 8,142 men and 22 ships. Thurii has 4,000 men and I think I said 30 ships? Something like that. Himera has 2,500 men and 10 ships. Though of these states, only Akragas, Eretria, and Rhegion are truly proficient in naval combat.
Before you said Rhegion has 2,500 Hoplites, but here you compare that number to the fully levy of Eretria Eskhata. Do they not have any significant forces of metic skirmishers or aristoi cavalry? I'm just wondering because, at least for us, the difference between levy and hoplite numbers is pretty sizeable.
 
The Sikeliotes may like very much the idea of decisively wresting control of the straits. But I suspect they may also like the idea of owning a talking unicorn named Gertrude.

It seems unclear at present whether they will get either, given their other concerns.

Clearly favouring Rhegion over the Sikeliotes and causing a rift amongst our own allies, going into a conference about how to approach a strong enemy, would be the kind of extremely risky gambit which might make sense if it played into an actual strategy.

There has been no real strategy of that type outlined which I have seen articulated here, just the vague idea that there might be one. Not meaning to be harsh there, but if we're causing a rift amongst our own allies against such a threatening foe, situational allies they may be, then I think we need an actual clear plan here.
 
Before you said Rhegion has 2,500 Hoplites, but here you compare that number to the fully levy of Eretria Eskhata. Do they not have any significant forces of metic skirmishers or aristoi cavalry? I'm just wondering because, at least for us, the difference between levy and hoplite numbers is pretty sizeable.

Let's say the number I give out are the full number they're willing to raise at one time, which can be their entire potential levy or a little below.
 
Clearly favouring Rhegion over the Sikeliotes and causing a rift amongst our own allies, going into a conference about how to approach a strong enemy, would be the kind of extremely risky gambit which might make sense if it played into an actual strategy.
Once again, aren't we currently doing that, just favoring the league over Rhegion in the planned coalition? I feel like i' missing something here, (and might well be I'm not nearly as thorough a reader as I should be)
edit- as evinced by the 2 typoes in that sentence.
 
Once again, aren't we currently doing that, just favoring the league over Rhegion in the planned coalition? I feel like i' missing something here, (and might well be I'm not nearly as thorough a reader as I should be)
edit- as evinced by the 2 typoes in that sentence.

Yeah, which is creating a rift in our own alliance. Not an utterly destructive rift, but even small fractures can grow when you apply a bit of pressure, you know? That's a risky thing to do when approaching an eight hundred pound gorilla who will require a lot of teamwork to take down, or at least scare off.

I don't know what landmines @Cetashwayo has planned for the conference, but there's bound to be at least one. I would like us to be seen as a reasonable party by everyone as much as possible, going in, because that gives us the most latitude to nudge and mould the situation.

If we were planning some sort of clear gambit in terms of fermenting dissent in our own alliance, then looting the resulting car crash, I could see it. Personally it's not my preferred playstyle, but I could see that there would be a logic there. Right now, I'm struggling to see it.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
Yeah, which is creating a rift in our own alliance. Not an utterly destructive rift, but even small fractures can grow when you apply a bit of pressure, you know? That's a risky thing to do when approaching an eight hundred pound gorilla who will require a lot of teamwork to take down, or at least scare off.
That's just restating your last post without any new points. How is that small rift that would be created by allying rhegion bigger than the rift that already exists in the League-Rhegion alliance from the vague spectre of what happens if the league ever gains hegemony itself? How is befriending Rhegion showing favoritism to them over the league, and not showing equal favor to both?
 
That's just restating your last post without any new points. How is that small rift that would be created by allying rhegion bigger than the rift that already exists in the League-Rhegion alliance from the vague spectre of what happens if the league ever gains hegemony itself? How is befriending Rhegion showing favoritism to them over the league, and not showing equal favor to both?

Well, probably because the option says that it will.

Our own imaginings of what rifts may or may not already exist are not really important when we explicitly know that we will create one, by aligning with Rhegion. Given the league is not actually likely to gain hegemony any time soon, this rift that already exists between them does not seem a particularly grave issue, to me. Moreover, it's not a rift that exists between them and us, which from our perspective is the more important thing. Nor is adding a second rift in our alliance going to make things better.

Again, what actual strategy is this playing into? How is this going to be taken advantage of at the conference?

Because there isn't one that I can see.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
Looking longer term, allying with Krotone now, we have the immediate potential to mitigate the irritation it might cause Thurii via handing them a free city as a gift.

The free city we're giving away is Lykai (to Taras). Thurii being happy assumes that our xenoparakletor succeeds in negotiations with Taras. He may fail. I believe too many citizens are counting their thunderbirds before they're hatched.

And again, I dislike the disrespect paid to Thurii when we give with one hand and bar her way with the other. Thurii is no former ally turned enemy like Taras, nor a junior member of our league like Garnae. They are a free city and a peer to us. If we do not respect our friends, why will they stay our friends?

Further, by allying with Rhegion, we may be sure to be able to come to the aid of Kymai if the shepherds continue their march to the coast. And Rhegion has the strong fleet that would allow her to send many men to fight at our sides if we needed to aid Kymai. Now, though Kymai has grown into a fine strong city, we are still her mother city and it is our maternal duty to make some preparations for how we might aid her in days when such worrying news arrives in our ports about her position.

Also, as has been said, Rhegion is the superior ally in times of peace.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes.
 
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The free city we're giving away is Lykai (to Taras). Thurii being happy assumes that our xenoparakletor succeeds in negotiations with Taras. He may fail. I believe too many citizens are counting their thunderbirds before they're hatched.

And again, I dislike the disrespect paid to Thurii when we give with one hand and bar her way with the other. Thurii is no former ally turned enemy like Taras, nor a junior member of our league like Garnae. They are a free city and a peer to us. If we do not respect our friends, why will they stay our friends?

Further, by allying with Rhegion, we may be sure to be able to come to the aid of Kymai if the shepherds continue their march to the coast. And Rhegion has the strong fleet that would allow her to send many men to fight at our sides if we needed to aid Kymai. Now, though Kymai has grown into a fine strong city, we are still her mother city and it is our maternal duty to make some preparations for how we might aid her in days when such worrying news arrives in our ports about her position.

Also, as has been said, Rhegion is the superior ally in times of peace.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes.
This is highly inconsistent. You speak about not "disrespecting" the Thurii (giving people cities gratis being an odd form of disrespect), whilst also wanting to disrespect our established allies the Sikeliote League by taking a stance on their dispute with Rhegion.

Rhegion is in no way opposed to us at the moment, nor are they seeking to restrict our shipping. Let us let sleeping dogs lie, and seek to bring the two parties together with us in opposition to Syracuse. In concert with an alliance with Krotone, that leaves Lokri surrounded and exposed should they try and back Syracuse.
The additional benefit of harnessing Krotone and Rhegion to our interests would be that it would almost inevitably shift the Italiote League as a whole, including Metaponiton, towards us.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
I rather have the ships more than the men. Yes, our Hoplites are of suspect quality at the moment, but that does not mean we should ignore them in place of allied Hoplites.

Finding a good navy ally is much more rare.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].

[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].

[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
This is highly inconsistent. You speak about not "disrespecting" the Thurii (giving people cities gratis being an odd form of disrespect), whilst also wanting to disrespect our established allies the Sikeliote League by taking a stance on their dispute with Rhegion.

Because there is no dispute yet between Rhegion and the Sikeliote League! Currently we are told there is only envy of Rhegion's control of the straits but that they are allied (though like Lokri with Syrakousai, this alliance is fraying).

And again, I think you depend too much on Taras swapping Herakleia Lukania to Thurii as we propose. Were I in the place of a Tarantine, I would spurn such an offer, and simply approach Lykai directly to tell them the nefarious scheme the Eretrians had cooked up to sell their city into bondage, and offer Lykai an alliance that in time I might turn into a patron/client relationship as Eretria has with the cities in our league.

And what will Thurii think if we ally with Krotone and give them nothing? If it does succeed will they even credit us overmuch for selling a city we had no claim over to gain them Herakleia, or would they instead laud the generosity of Taras?

By allying with Rhegion now, we may face the difficulties between them and the Sikeliotes earlier when these difficulties have yet to germinate and while Syrakousai is still a threat. By diffusing this problem may solidify the anti-Syrakousai alliance and deny Syrakousai and her allies options.

Rhegion, as one of the major naval powers in the region is absolutely key to our ability to oppose Syrakousai. The hopilites of Krotone do us no good if they are stuck in Italia. And, even if they are not cleaved from alliance with the Sikeliotes by clever Syrakousain diplomacy, a closer alliance with them would, I believe, strengthen us still since coordination is vital in trireme warfare. Turning Rhegion from an uncertain member of the anti-Syrakousai coalition to a fully committed ally of our great city may pay dividends when our fleet must work closely with theirs. I would venture so far as to say that the trust of our allies in war would more than double the strength of the hopilites or triremes they can bring. With a fleet as great as that of Rhegion, added to our own fleet and the power of true trust between us, our fleets would be unbeatable by any polis besides Athens or Sparta themselves.

Now, if you see an alliance with Krotone now as the best way to ensure we have an alliance with Krotone and Rhegion both once the conference in Sicily ends, I can at least understand your temptation. But an alliance with Krotone alone I see little benefit from and too much risk.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] War Against the Dauni: For decades the Dauni have sat on the border of the Epulian League and menaced our allies with raids and skirmishes. Their kings have plotted against us, warred with us, and allied against us many times. Now, the time has come to pay back the debt they have bestowed upon us by destroying them once and for all. The xenoparakletor will rally the cities of Herdonia, Salapia, and whatever other cities would be willing, and back them in a rebellion that seeks to overthrow King Ausculos and end the Dauni as a threat. Whether that will be through annexing the rest of the cities or simply replacing their leadership with something more amenable to Eretria remains to be seen, but the Dauni must be made to never again threaten the city of Eretria Eskhata [War against the Dauni with attendant strategos options].
 
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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] War Against the Dauni: For decades the Dauni have sat on the border of the Epulian League and menaced our allies with raids and skirmishes. Their kings have plotted against us, warred with us, and allied against us many times. Now, the time has come to pay back the debt they have bestowed upon us by destroying them once and for all. The xenoparakletor will rally the cities of Herdonia, Salapia, and whatever other cities would be willing, and back them in a rebellion that seeks to overthrow King Ausculos and end the Dauni as a threat. Whether that will be through annexing the rest of the cities or simply replacing their leadership with something more amenable to Eretria remains to be seen, but the Dauni must be made to never again threaten the city of Eretria Eskhata [War against the Dauni with attendant strategos options].

You're missing a vote for Italiote ally.
 
Also, I feel that the Sikeliotes are our allies specifically against Syracuse but not to any great lengths beyond that, while Rhegion could be our ally in almost any venture, and secure us specifically naval dominance over the local region, not just against Syracuse.

Syracuse is an annoyance that we need to keep in check, but other than spending the minimum possible attention on that, we should ignore Sicily and focus on spreading (by sea!) our influence and control elsewhere. (Adriatic!)
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
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