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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
Admiral Skippy said:
oh my god this is such a beautiful car crash

I love it

DEMOCRACY WORKS
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Bipartisanship is not enough!

In Eretria we will attempt TRI-partisanship!

Random Member said:
"For too long have the Dauni been a torn in our side, a far more annoying torn than a few pesky pirates. I say it is time we remove this menace from our borders once and for all!"
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Leukos the Accountant:

"Beware. On the other side of that thornbush may lurk the spearpoint of a stronger enemy. To lengthen our frontiers without limit is to invite disaster; we should praise the gods for the gains we have made in these past few years, build temples and hold feasts in their honor, and prepare ourselves for a future day..."
 
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
To all of you voting for Krotone, I feel this is once more a case of aiming for the least downside rather than most upside. I believe Rhegion to be the superior choice for us.

1: With their navy and ours combined, we become a truly strong naval power. Able to face, say, Corinth. Able to safely move to and from Sicily with troops if need be. Able to prevent any but the largest and most determined invasions by Athens or Carthage. Our hoplites aren't currently something we must strengthen, for there is no land threat in sight. If war comes for us, it comes by sea.

2: Trade, and specifically sea trade, is most of our wealth and all of our future. Securing friendly trade ports in strategic locations is of the utmost importance. Our friends in Sicily will remain our friends while Syracuse is a threat, and if the day comes that they are not, then we do not want to give full dominance over the strait to any power, let alone a power that rules over all Sicily, no matter how friendly they've been in the past. Never trust a friend stronger than you.

3: The Sikeliotes can't really get too annoyed about this at least openly, since Rhegion is an ally of theirs too and we're helping them in the Congress.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
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Rhegion isn't likely to be able to spare us much aid in the Adriatic, and we can't aid Rhegion much in the Tyrrhenian Sea. We are however assured that Rhegion will oppose Syracuse because it is in their fundamental interest that Syracuse not dominate Sicily. As such I think for our purposes the current friendship with Rhegion, as old as the voyage of Eusebius to the West, will suffice.
 
Erandil said:
I wonder if the bad luck of the Etruscans is scripted/follows history or if they are simply unlucky. I mean I know that in RL something similar happened, more than once even, so it isn't exact unbelievable but this is still a disastrous showing of the Ertruscans on the battlefield and it isn't like they should fight that much different comapred to Greeks. Indeed, I am tempted to argue that we should delay our military reforms till we have fought those Samnites/Brutii and are able to include the lessons learned there into our military than to reform now, mostly inspired by Greek vs Greek fighting I think, and have to reform it again in the near future. Constant military reforms don't tend to be that good for effectiveness.
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I think this is placing too much onus on Etruscan failure. The Lucani and Bruttii delivered plenty of defeats to the Greek cities of the coast over the course of the 4th century BCE In fact, they conquer a good portion of the coastal Greek cities such as Krotone, Metapontion, and Poseidonia, and defeat multiple mainland expeditions to attack them led by Sparta and then Epirus. Usually, however, they do it through treachery or intelligent use of the environment to trap their enemies; the most famed victory of the Samnites was not a battle at all, but trapping the Romans in a pass that allowed them to force the entire army to a surrender (The Caudine Forks).

I don't think the Etruscans are particularly worse fighters than the Hellenes, and we have precious few sources about the fall of the Northern Etruscans in the Po Valley or the Campanian Etruscans. However, I think it's a factor of three things:

1. The Etruscans might have been an elite over a mixed or mostly indigenous population, and so were brittle in the face of military defeats.
2. In the case of the Southern Etruscans, they may have been spent from fighting the Greeks, a greatly weakened force. This is almost certainly the case given that the outcome of the Battle of Kymai in 474 BCE was the effective loss of dominance for the Etruscans in the southern Tyrrhenian Sea, after having already lost their land connection to Campania thanks to the invasions of the Volsci and the rise of the Roman Republic.
3. It's probably more complicated than "they were overrun". Internal strife, divisions between cities, treachery, and other complex factors could all have played a part in the fall of these cities.

Indeed, the Etruscans fight extremely fiercely when facing the Romans, and don't seem to have been bad fighters by any measure. They are just about to go through a series of extremely unfortunate events. Within a century of the Battle of Kymai, the Etruscans will experience the following misfortunes:

1. Losing the outpost of Fidenae to Rome, ceding control of the right bank of the Tiber conclusively.
2. Losing the entirety of Campania to Samnite invaders.
3. Losing the entirety of the Po Valley to a Gallic invasion, though how much of an invasion and how much was a more Anglo-Saxon situation where it was a mixed invasion/migration/ethnic coup is a big question.
4. Losing the city of Veii to Rome.
5. Suffering the loss of many of their cities north of the Arno to the Friniates.
6. Consistent Gallic raiding after that and then a final defeat by the Romans.

Just one of the most shit hands in history.
 
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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

I, Isigas son of Euplastos, say that we should give Avarthias Artahias of Neriton the control over the cattle drive. To deny it to him may only serve to divide the Messapii in petty struggles against each other. Now that they are defeated, their cities, sacked and driven from their ancestral lands we must recognize that they are a broken people. By giving king Artahias a hand we give a hand to the messapii people as a whole.
In my opinion the xenoparakletor should try to gain the friendship of the city of Rhegion. Though I may not have voted for the drakonid platform in the last election I will say that further strengthening our trade, our navy sounds very appealing to me. The misgivings of the sikeliotes will hopefully laid to rest in the sicillian conference at the latest. In the same vein I will argue that we must destroy the pirates that harry our traders, to ensure the free flow of goods upon which such a great portion of Eretrias's wealth is build will not be hindered.

Cetashwayo said:
Coalitions of Chaos
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I thought they were the purview of the northern celts. Or did my father Euplastos tell me of different people...
 
Cavalier said:
Rhegion isn't likely to be able to spare us much aid in the Adriatic, and we can't aid Rhegion much in the Tyrrhenian Sea. We are however assured that Rhegion will oppose Syracuse because it is in their fundamental interest that Syracuse not dominate Sicily. As such I think for our purposes the current friendship with Rhegion, as old as the voyage of Eusebius to the West, will suffice.
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I don't see why we can't aid each other. Triremes aren't in constant use to always be busy somewhere. If we are allies and we call upon them, I expect them to be able to help.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Expedition: The question of the Messapii cannot wait. Too much is still to be settled among them and their internal problems resolved. The Messapii must be pulled up from their place of devastation and become strong once more, so that their strength can become our strength, their numbers can become our numbers, and their cities will become part of our dominion in truth as well as in theory. The xenoparakletor will be dispatched on a tour of the Messapii cities to gain their respect and bring them into the Eretrian fold [If successful, access to about half of the possible Messapii levy and tribute, which will recover to its full potential over time].

Erastos son of Nikedemos stands atop a rock to speak, unsteady as ever.

"My fellow citizens! This self-made king of the Mesappii is not to my liking, but I would rather a more orderly procession of cattle than I would take delight in a spurned barbaroi. For their stench is foul, fouler far than that of our weasels! And as for where good Obander goes, I say that we send him to Krotone! There might lie a dimming star, but not so dimly lit as not to serve purpose in friendship with Etretia. I like not the look of Lokri nor Rhegion, for we have neither need of ships nor desire to offend our Sikeliote cousins. And while many here do speak of the threat of the Liburnians, I am adamant in my belief that our homes must be set to right before stepping outside to clean our streets! Today the Messapii and tomorrow the Illyrians! And maybe after that, the salt-licking Dauni!"
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Theopilos Theopilos is thanked for their speech, but is also asked in the future not to resent the demoi in such a way as to create his own deme in contravention of the laws of the assembly, which mandate that any deme must have kleftes to lift their stones, not weasels.
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Ah, I take it this is the period-correct spelling? Fantastic, I'll shift the spelling in all future posts.

[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
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[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Through our fair cities alliances with Thurii and the Sikeliote League, we are already set on a course of conflict with Rhegion and Krotone. I see the specter of Taras and Kerkyra before my minds eye. Allying with one of them will just result in having to choose between allies in the long run. Let us not repeat one of our cities darkest hours.

Checking the ambitions of Syrakousai is crucial as well. They need to be contained, so no Gelo can spread his Tyranny again over this greater part of Greece.

Greater and more eloquent men than me have argued for giving Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive and the Illyrian Expedition. I trust in their assessment.
 
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[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
I would urge people to reconsider on voting for Lokri Epixephyrii, and instead to befriend Rhegion.

While it is indeed tempting to pluck the only friend of Syrakousai, I see it as entirely inadvisable to so threaten Rhegion on the eve of the conference in Gela. Recall that the titanic Syrakousai has along with what it dominates outright the ear of Gela and Akragas; on the side of the Sikeliote League is only Himera and Rhegion. If we ally with Lokri Epixephyrii, we would surround Rhegion with allies greedy for its land.

Rhegion's interest is towards a Sicily where it can exist. To that end, it has been working against Syrakousai, which has threatened to dominate the island with its gigantic population and also had Lokri Epixephyrii set against it. But if that ally of Syrakousai is snipped off and instead falls in on the same page with the Sikeliote League- would it not be the block that surrounds and desires Rhegion that is most threatening? It would become the city's interest to empower Syrakousai at the conference so that their is a counterbalance, stripping a friend of us from that conference to be replaced with an enemy and weighting it in favor of Syrakousai.

However. If Eretria allies Rhegion, this would instead improve the situation against Syrakousai. The Sikeliote League may not be happy about the blocking of its northern ambitions, but if it goes against its allies then it would be doomed to face the might of hated Syrakousai alone. Rhegion is pleased to have its independence secured right before the conference, and the block against potential Sikeliote League expansion in the north makes it more palatable for the minor powers of Sicily (such as undecided Selinous) who have no desire for a new titan to emerge. Plus, it focuses Sikeliote League actions towards Syrakousai, while a Rhegion thus secured is able to more strongly commit against a Lokri Epixephyrii that must also be wary of Krotone. Rather than giving Syrakousai the opportunity to make new friends to replace its old (consider that Krotone would also be cautious of being stuck between Lokri Epixephyrii and Thurii and would likely seek assurance for its independence), it weakens the existing one and seals off that chance.

Plus, in addition to all that, we have secured the hugely important luxury pottery trade with Etruria that passes between the straits.

The Sikeliote League is unlike to be impressed by this decision, but their main importance is in that they keep Syrakousai off our backs; we have no inherent desire to see the Sikeliote League unite the island if the job of suppressing Syrakousai from ever reaching us may be done just as well with a somewhat cross, smaller Sikeliote League in partnership with a network of smaller powers desiring to maintain their independence. Allying Rhegion serves our goal of weakening Syrakousai's standing in the conference and supports our trade, and unlike allying with the setting sun of Krotone it does not upset relations with the rising power of the southwestern Italiotes that is Thurii.

Also for the other votes, I really like raising our tariff efficiency because I care more so about honing our trading chops than establishing a death grip over Messapians and I think that the piracy expedition is really important to keep from losing out on trade routes. Also, the navy as it stands doesn't seem concerned with much else at this time, while basically all the other options rely on sending out the extremely busy xenoparakletor which would likely distract from his work. So, here stands my vote:

[x] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[x] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
Cetashwayo said:
The Peuketii were simple enough; the king had authority over cattle drives and ordered a general drive of the cattle herds of the nobility towards the city, with citizens of Eretria gathering to see the hundreds of head of cattle outside the walls, with some like the young Heliodoros salivating at the very thought of beef outside of festival days, only to be told off by an elder who reminded the young one that spitting or drooling on public city property was strictly forbidden by city laws.
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*cheeks burn with embarrassment*

[x] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Citizens of the ekklesia, I will not speak much on the matter of *wipes saliva from mouth* the matter of the Messapii cattle driving, or the very much needed expedition against the pirates who have harassed our merchants for so long. If any man is against these two courses of action, let him voice his concerns so we can address them.

I will also not speak much on the treatment of former Xenoparakletors. There is enough support for the motions of Phokion and Ajax that a discussion will be held in the near future.

Let me instead focus on the agon of the day's assembly; the matter of establishing an alliance with one of the Italiote cities. Remember that the critical point of the mission was to prevent the Italiotes to ever enforce their will over us like they did with Peace of Phaidros. Whilst other goals may be desirable, the critical point is establishing friendly relations with the West. Thus, I do not feel inclined to support an alliance with Lokri, as such an alliance would cause more ill-will than goodwill in the region.

Which then leads me to the two cities of Krotone and Rhegion. Both of these choices have the unfortunate position of being in the way of the ambitions of our allies; Thurii and the Sikeliote League respectively, but the potential backlash of both of these are somewhat neutralized by the fact that we shall be supporting them both in the near future. Krotone will support our *sighs* relatively lacking hoplites, whilst Rhegion would raise our naval superiority to be without peer. Krotone is closer to provide support; Rhegion is further to extend our influence west. I find both choices to be tempting.

But I must return to the critical point. Establishing goodwill in Italia. Krotone may no longer be the hegemon of the region, they still have strong relations with the minor cities. If we make friends with Krotone, we make friends with a multitude of cities. We, in a sense, make friends with the region.

At the current moment, I cast my support for Krotone. I remain open to persuasion from wise arguments.

[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].

Thus speaks Heliodoros, son of Giorgios.

A cow for every citizen!
 
Cetashwayo said:
Nike is the favored war goddess of Eretria. Athene is generally seen as the Goddess of cunning in war, but to Nike most war supplications are given and victories dedicated. Near the center of the city along the processional way there is a monument to victory that is a statue of Nike.
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Oddly, Taras seems to venerate some strange war deity known as "Adidas."
 
[x] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[x] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
dontpressenter said:
Which then leads me to the two cities of Krotone and Rhegion. Both of these choices have the unfortunate position of being in the way of the ambitions of our allies; Thurii and the Sikeliote League respectively, but the potential backlash of both of these are somewhat neutralized by the fact that we shall be supporting them both in the near future. Krotone will support our *sighs* relatively lacking hoplites, whilst Rhegion would raise our naval superiority to be without peer. Krotone is closer to provide support; Rhegion is further to extend our influence west. I find both choices to be tempting.

But I must return to the critical point. Establishing goodwill in Italia. Krotone may no longer be the hegemon of the region, they still have strong relations with the minor cities. If we make friends with Krotone, we make friends with a multitude of cities. We, in a sense, make friends with the region.

At the current moment, I cast my support for Krotone. I remain open to persuasion from wise arguments.
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Our hoplites may not be great, but consider that this Italiote diplomacy removes most land threats that we face. If we have proxenoi to establish our good intentions with the Italiotes so that they don't band up against us and we're able to reconcile with Taras, there will not be much hostile left in Italy (barring northern barbarians) that the combination of Eretria & subjects along with Thurii cannot take on. Also consider that allying with Krotone is liable to disappoint the Thurii (who were already disappointed by the conclusion of the war with Taras) and lessen their support and good hoplites.

I prefer to think of it this way. Our main enemy is Syrakousai, in Sicily. If we ally with Krotone and the minor Italian states it's befriended, we'll certainly shore up our position in the toe of the Italiote boot, at the cost of letting the situation slide more in Sicily. But letting that happen means that Syrakousai entrenches itself there and become more powerful. We'll be better equipped to fend off invasions from Sicily with a strong presence in the Italiote toe, but would it not be better to engineer the situation such that we do not need to defend from such invasions?

If we ally with Rhegion, we are likely to push the conference in our favor, making the Sikeliote League more palatable for the minor powers of Sicily by denying it the treat of Rhegion and the ability to expand to the north. The Sikeliote League is less at liberty to question our alliance for such an insult due to the huge threat of Syrakousai, while Thurii is not so directly threatened. Also, an alliance with Rhegion secures one of our precious luxury trade routes; allying with Krotone does not hold this advantage.
 
[x] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[x] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
 
@Cetashwayo
Do we have an approximate estimation of the force that Syrakousai has available? 5,000 men? 25,000? 20 ships? 100? An important consideration for this vote is knowing how much the threat of our coalition going after them can actually threaten Syrakousai.
 
Godwinson said:
@Cetashwayo
Do we have an approximate estimation of the force that Syrakousai has available? 5,000 men? 10,000? 20 ships? 100? An important consideration for this vote is knowing how much the threat of our coalition going after them can actually threaten Syrakousai.
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Syrakousai has 10,000 men and 35 ships. Gela has 6,000 men and 15 ships and Akragas has 7,000 men and 25 ships.

The Sikeliote League has 8,000 men and 15 ships. Rhegion has 2,500 men and 25 ships. Eretria Eskhata has 8,142 men and 22 ships. Thurii has 4,000 men and I think I said 30 ships? Something like that. Himera has 2,500 men and 10 ships. Though of these states, only Akragas, Eretria, and Rhegion are truly proficient in naval combat.
 
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Friends, Eretrians, countrymen... Lend me your ears!

Liburni delenda est.

When our forefathers had wavered on the issue of the Peuketti, we suffered setbacks that needed the advice of Kallias the Wise and Sideros the Elder to lead us well.

When we made new paths in allowing the barbaroi King Harpos of the Peuketti as Friend of the Eretrians he paid our fidelity and trust in him with solid loyalty until his dying breath, allowing both his people and ours to prosper and help each other.

So let us give Artahias his proper due and pray to the Gods that he will return such trust in him with good loyalty.

And in light of the costs that the ongoing construction of the Divine Marriage and other diplomatic overtures, I agree with focusing on the Italians and making Taras from a foe into a friend.

For what better way to destroy a foe when you make him into a friend?

We were brothers once, yet in a moment of weakness the damned Kerykans drove a wedge between us, and I pray that the gulf that resulted in this could and would be mended.

Oh, how I wish that we could bring the walls of Kerkyra down and destroy here down to the foundation! I dream when we or our future descendants will come and exact justice that would make Nemesis satisfied and salt the earth with them, but the most important thing right now are these damned pirates.

With any reasonable and civilised city competition in economy is a must, and disputes and profits could be solved by arete in merchants, policies, negotiations, and even war of need be, and that is that.

But pirates? They are enemies of all for they do not care whether you are Hellene, Italian, Carthaginian, Sicilian or such as long as you are in the way of their riches you will doe or suffer worse fates.

What use is trade and money when it dries up due to fear or paying extra for security in the presence of such feral subhumans? How can we make more money when these parasites suck the lifeblood of the city like an insidious illness?

Kill them all, and let their gods sort out the rest.

Thus I, Iskandar Xanatos of the Demes Drakonid, have spoken.

Liburni delenda est!
 
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