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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
 
Voting is generally complicated. With how intervowen this vote is.
@Cetashwayo Can I ask that you add to the turns what the result of the last voting was?
Adhoc vote count started by Portec on May 26, 2019 at 11:23 AM, finished with 163 posts and 47 votes.
  • [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
Click to expand...
 
I can barely make anything of the tally.

The nunbers for strategos seems to be similar. With the votes for the leading plan just unified instead of spread...
 
Last edited:
I think the problem might go away in future votes if you use parentheses () instead of brackets [] for the task voting when we're doing plan voting.

Like

[k] Plan Ham and Cheese Sandwich
-[k] (meat) Ham
-[k] (extra) Cheese
-[k] (substrate) Bread

That might work
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think the problem might go away in future votes if you use parentheses () instead of brackets [] for the task voting when we're doing plan voting.

Like

[k] Plan Ham and Cheese Sandwich
-[k] (meat) Ham
-[k] (extra) Cheese
-[k] (substrate) Bread

That might work
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh, I know what the problem is, I'm just hesitant to ask people to change or redo their votes now.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 2:17 PM, finished with 183 posts and 51 votes.
  • [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
Click to expand...
 
I did not want this war, but it seems more warlike minds prevailed. So, let us find out if my caution was actual cowardice or their ambition was hubris...
[X] Plan Steel Ram
 
Spacegnom said:
I did not want this war, but it seems more warlike minds prevailed. So, let us find out if my caution was actual cowardice or their ambition was hubris...
[X] Plan Steel Ram
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it makes you feel any better the entire point of steel ram is to get this war over with whatever the end result. If we win superb. If we lose, well so long as diplomacy with Metapontion isn't a complete disaster we can avoid the utter destruction of our polis.
 
Cetashwayo said:
It looks to me like Steel Ram is in the lead here, but there are some people who have not put in votes but were part of the discussion or did not put in plan votes
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thanks for the consideration, but I voted back here for 'Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory'.

Antipatros, son of Lysandros on the War with Taras

My fellow citizens, my friends, I have been left shocked this last day as the Ekklesia have turned away from, what seems obvious to me, to be good sense. The warmongers in Taras have long desired conflict with us, and in our efforts to prepare for such a thing we have given them the excuse they need to force us into war. They desire a pitched battle, they hope to force us to cast aside our advantages for that is their only hope of victory. And though the reason escapes me... this Ekklesia seems determined to do just that.

In saying this I cast no slight or doubt upon our brave Hoplites but our greatest strength on land has long been our cavalry. So feared are they, and such is the awe others hold for them that Athens themselves have sought to create a lesser version.

And yet, in this war we seem set not to use them to their fullest, but instead use them to the least possible effect?

The Tarentine brutes wish only that we meet them in a pitched battle, that even should we win we will be weakened enough that we can be contained by others. I cannot see any logic in giving the enemy what they desire, in fighting them where they are strongest.

And that we would be forced to commit the Xenoparakletor to Metapontion for this? Metapontion desire the status quo, they will not stand with Taras because to see us face such a defeat is to bring about their own destruction in due course. We do not need to secure their neutrality, because so long as it does not seem we will bring Taras to utter ruin it is already assured.

To use The Serpent's Vice Plan is to use our greatest strengths against Taras. To follow The Storm of Iron is to cast them aside.

And to send the Xenoparakletor to Metapontion to secure the neutrality of one who is already neutral at the cost of a second war seems a poor trade to me.

This Ekklesia will decide our course, as is it's right. And whatever path may be chosen I will fight for good Eretria, as is my duty. But the decision we seem set to make is one that leaves me with many doubts.
 
Anyways it's actually relatively simple to figure out what the tally is for the various plans; just ignore all the sub-votes and look only at the blocks which are a full plan. From that we get:

23 for Steel Ram
13 for Lasting Victory
4 for Eretria Unyielding
3 for Big Stick
2 for Greater Iron Storm
1 for Iron and Fire
1 for Consequences of our Follies
 
I entreat you, o wise ekklesia, to consider carefully the merits.

If we send our beloved Xenoparakletor to the Metapontion -- that is a decision which will benefit us today, but at tomorrow's cost. The king of the Dauni will no doubt punish his cities mightily, for their restiveness; he is a cunning man, and this news will hark to him.

Contrariwise, if we send him to the Dauni, that is a decision that costs us today, but benefits us tomorrow. Our war against Taras will be more difficult, but our war against the Dauni will be more easily resolved.

Are we so troubled, poleis, that we must sacrifice long-term benefit for short-term gain?

------

Which is to say, do we actually need the extra insurance of buying off the Metapontion, or can we win without securing their neutrality?
 
My view is that buying off Metapontion is nigh-impossible if we seek to crush Taras in pitched battle and break the city directly. It's just too threatening to their long-term survival. Similarly, allowing the Dauni to ravage our countryside at will won't exactly do wonders for our morale, or for the loyalty of the Peuketii and the other Epulian cities who aren't as well protected as Eretria is. Plus it means the Dauni king will have a free hand to crush his opposition and form a fully unified threat on our western border just when we've either weakened ourselves in the process of winning victory on the battlefield over Taras or been defeated and thus rendered defenseless against whatever the Dauni may try.

Simply put, I think Steel Ram compounds our errors of the past few years by gambling our survival on an immediate pitched battle against a larger and more experienced army, while doing nothing to prevent our own hinterland from being razed and instead trying to convince an already-wary neutral that our hypothetical obliteration of their stronger neighbor totally won't pose a threat to them, honest.

This strikes me as a poor decision.
 
presumably in the future we will employ professional diplomats to handle foreign policy

--

I think @The Sandman makes a very good point about time.

To put it in modern terms, Steel Ram prefers a decisive battle, where Lasting Victory is about attrition. IMO, both plans have a reasonable chance of success -- but if we have the time to let attrition take its course, I prefer it to a decisive battle.

Atttrition, IMO, is just less long-term risk for the polis. Regardless of the results of the war, I think we want to preserve maximum freedom of movement, and take the course that closes off the fewest of our options; given our economy compared to Taras, I do think we have that luxury.

What are people's thoughts about how much time we have, and whether we need to rush to crush Taras in the next year?
 
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)

So! I leave the city for a few days and you start a war without me! I like this little.

Since we have a war, my advice is to be cautious. If we win a pitched battle, it would be well. But if we lose it, or win with heavy losses, it would hurt us greviously in all of our doings. By attempting to put Taras in a vice, we will also gain a better idea of their strength.

Also, let us work to keep the Dauni out of the war. Preserving the fields and villages around Eretria while we raid the country around Taras will mean we can be sure to be stronger next year than they. If we leave the Dauni to attack us, we will only suffer for it.

fasquardon
 
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 2:19 PM, finished with 183 posts and 51 votes.
  • [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    --[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
Click to expand...
 
Secretariat said:
I think @The Sandman makes a very good point about time.

To put it in modern terms, Steel Ram prefers a decisive battle, where Lasting Victory is about attrition. IMO, both plans have a reasonable chance of success -- but if we have the time to let attrition take its course, I prefer it to a decisive battle.

Atttrition, IMO, is just less long-term risk for the polis. Regardless of the results of the war, I think we want to preserve maximum freedom of movement, and take the course that closes off the fewest of our options; given our economy compared to Taras, I do think we have that luxury.

What are people's thoughts about how much time we have, and whether we need to rush to crush Taras in the next year?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The way the last update was phrased seems to quite strongly indicate the war will be resolved in a year regardless. They're both very much centered on ending up besieging Taras by the end of the year. So we probably shouldn't run away with the idea of some sort of campaign strategy going on for a few years here; that's not what we're voting on.

Of course, there are many good points to both strategies, and the crucial bit of the Serpent's Vice is still likely to take place over a longer time period than the Storm of Iron, perhaps a few months rather than a few weeks.
 
Switching to
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory

Because at least it isn't Plan Steel Ram. I urge those who voted for my plan to do likewise.

@Orisha91 , @Chopak, @veekie,

Plan victory is the closest viable plan to our own.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 3:26 PM, finished with 187 posts and 52 votes.
  • [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    --[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
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