A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
Prettifying the unconscionable is... well, possible, but not what I'm driving at here. Danelle values honesty. There are degrees of greater good, and the Faith is not innocent of that type of moral relativism.
Let's not mince words here: the order that Danelle champions (the Faith in general and Westerosi nobility in particular, which lest we forget is anointed and sanctioned by the Faith) does itself engage in subterfuge, murder, and very
Meanwhile, we are tempting Devils to follow a gentler path, killing beings who have a vested interest and marked enthusiasm for the slaughter of humanity, and giving the general populace of our realm not just overall stability but actual hope.
The above isn't an exaggeration, it's simple observation. I really don't see why it would need to be sugar-coated.
I do want Danelle, though. She's better than what she serves.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Knights, not nobility, but that's semantics.
That's the problem though. She's better than what she serves and, in all honesty, is better than us. Because we do good, but we are not, definitively, good. And as a servant of the Maiden, she is basically all the best parts of the Faith wrapped into one package. Hell, she's probably the closest thing a mortal can get to things like Yrael. We can benefit from her, in many ways, but as has been point out by so many people in pretty much the whole last day, it will cost us opportunitys.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
There's no need to divide the world into subjects and enemies. That's the mistake Lucan's making. Nor do we need to adopt her as some kind of mascot or ethical mood ring.
We want capable allies; she is that. We want to weaken our enemies, and this would. We want to bring change to those parts of the Faith that are capable of change, and Danelle is a possible way forward. We have the opportunity and the means, and if the possibility of having to temper occasional zealotry and shortsightedness with nuanced counterarguments is the price we have to pay for that gift, I'll take it.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
Now I take slight umbrage with that.
She's nicer that us, maybe even kinder, but she's not better. A gentle hand that fails to protect those who are under its aegis is not better than the clawed talon carving its enemies into bloody ribbons for those same people.
We're not nice. We're not Good. But we are protecting this world and everyone in it whether or not they like us and no matter what she or her comrades might say that will not change.
They got a problem with our methods? They're free to submit alternatives, reasonable alternatives. If they can find or facilitate a better way then how we've been operating, good, here's some funding and get it done. If they can't then they need to go somewhere else and let us work in peace.
I've said it once, twice, thrice, and I'll say it more before we're done. We do not have time for half measures. A bit of nuance certainly, but not fucking about.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
She isn't. Definitionally, she's not. If she's unwilling to take responsibility for the thing she serves, she's no better than the Kingsguard who stood guard over Aerys while he violated his wife.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
and who says she has? Danelle and her companions, as far as we've seen, take care of Greyshield. Any time she has come into contact with darkness, she fought it back. He'll, she saved a boy she knew was touched by dark powers when their was no evidence of any actual wrongdoing. And so far she has yet to prove unwilling of anything besides negotiating with a man who has taken her friends hostage in a sudden and, for their part at least, unprovoked attack. Just because the scale she works on is not as great, it does not mean her morality is lesser for it.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
What is it that you think the Conclave aims to do? It's a political summit, with her as an influential player, and that means she works at the scale of the Seven Kingdoms when she wishes. If she chooses to work on a smaller scale, she can, but it's not an excuse to hide behind.
Danelle is the Chosen of the Maiden, singular form. That makes her one-half of the personal representatives of the Seven active in the world. Through that, she is a key player of the Faith as a whole. Moreover, she was the one to decide to make this about the morality of rulership. When I compared her to a Kingsguard, I was if anything underselling her agency and thus, moral responsibility.
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Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
To use an analogy, she's mad at us for using a firehose because it damages the bark of the burning tree we're currently trying to put out while not noticing the gigantic wildfire that's currently consuming the forest.
Until she's aware of the scale of the growing disaster and/or can make a typhoon show up on demand I'm not going to be bothered by her complaints.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
...could we stop talking about how people are morally superior to us?
Really riles me up, that, in light of thе fact we are about to talk with Lucan, and you guys can just be sure, that he'll be rebutting and arguing for every bit of the way against our fully reasonable demands.
Really riles me up, that, in light of thе fact we are about to talk with Lucan, and you guys can just be sure, that he'll be rebutting and arguing for every bit of the way against our fully reasonable demands.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
And yet she has only just shown up to it. Without any indication of what she intends to do here, and the first thing she experiences is the kidnapping of her friends and a subordinates to a man she believes to be good. We haven't even given the girl a chance to do anything.
So you're going to blame her for ignorance now? If anything, that's a failing of her patrons, not Danelle.
Not necessarily superior, just more... Focused. And if we make demands, sure. But we're not. The goal is to make allies, not subordinates.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, 'morally superior' is a value judgment, and for 'moral' there are different models/definitions around. I'm sure there's also at least one where NPCs are more moral than we are.
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
On that you have my complete agreement. The Seven should at the very least be aware of some of the shit coming down the pipe if not all of it. If these are their physical agents then they really should be telling them this shit instead of us having to do it.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
>> Lucan
Ahhah.
And here I thought the worst of the shitshow had passed.
Nevermind that, carry on.
I'll go and grab some Validolum and Popcorn, tho'.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
Again: as a servant of the Maiden, she represents the Faith as a whole. In accepting that allegiance and that position and that power, she must needs also shoulder some of the blame for the actions of the Faith as a whole. She may choose to be situationally ignorant about it, but she was fully aware of the fact that Lucan summoned a volatile weapon and has a hard-on for killing the Dragon: she still chose to ally with him.
Much of her work is counter to the established order, where the strong bully the weak. The problem is that this order is sanctified by the Seven. That is the crux of the dilemma: that Danelle acts as if she's operating in a vacuum, as if there were no context to underpin much of the human evil that she strives to undo.
That is why I said what I said, which was that if she's unwilling to take responsibility for the thing she serves, then that is complacency rather than goodness. Kind and compassionate complacency, perhaps, but still complacency in the face of an evil system.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
And again: she hasn't had a chance. And, finally enough, she did try to talk Lucan down from summoning Baelor. What else has she done to temper his actions that we haven't seen?
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
We've still got a few more irons in the fire before we pop that off, but if what I recall is correct we're going to be making some moves in that direction fairly soon yes.
Hence why laying everything out right now would actually be for the best. Might make the transition more bloodless if we can get them to play ball.
We'll never get them to join, and to be blunt I couldn't care less, but if we can get them pointed at the more life ending targets instead of poking us every five minutes then that'll be grand.
If we don't a large portion of our time spent corralling Westeros would be putting down a religious insurgency and that's something nobody would want to deal with.
Eleas
Avian-at-arms
- Location
- Malmö, Sweden
We don't know.
We only know that whatever redeeming change the Chosen of the Maiden managed to effect, none of it was consequential enough to be noticeable on a scale that matters to Westeros. Which is honestly not a great deal of support for your original claim that she's our moral superior.
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Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
That's just it though, we haven't seen it. We shouldn't assume she did something to temper him when by all accounts she could have just ignored him and focused on her own shit, like how the Smith is farting out dragon bane weapons instead of, oh I don't know, Demonbane, Evil bane, Squid bane, or hell even just some goddamn equipment.
We'll see what she's done once we get her and Lucan to the table, if they even agree to do so.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Again, not superior, and again, scale doesn't define morality. The most pious, kind, and good-hearted man in the world could be a beggar on the streets of a random village. It's not about what you do, but how you do it.
That I'll give you but by the same token we don't know she hasn't, and with at least one instance of trying to instill moderation, I'm liable to expect more.
lancelot
Completely worth it
For now...
[X] Plan "My Turn"
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."
[X] Plan "My Turn"
-[X] "Before this discussion progresses any further, Lady Danelle, let me make one thing clear. Your friends are free to go, and Lucan's along with them, either now if you wish it or released directly into your custody when we are finished here. Your friends were not my intended targets and I will not hold them hostage against your good behavior, or to leverage you into my service. Lucan's have served their purpose in revealing to me his concern for them and ultimately leading to this meeting. Now, I let you speak your mind and now I would appreciate it if you let me speak mine."
-[X] "I have all too often seen mages bound to service, not through oaths willingly given or loyalty earned, but through enchantment, curses and worse. Surely you are familiar with Tywin Lannisters' Golden Shields? I've yet to encounter one who was not magically bound to serve him, regardless of their willingness. The Citadel? They sent a spy to infiltrate my Scholarium, one who had been branded through magic such that he could not disobey the Maesters holding his leash on pain of death. So yes, when I heard rumors that Lucan practiced similar atrocities, I believed them. After all, the man had already made himself my enemy."
--[X] "Are you familiar with the Angels Lucan has Called into his service? If so, you might remember Baelor, once called the Blessed due to his overwhelming piety and faith in the Seven, but also my ancestor and a former King of Westeros. Baelor was not simply Called to serve. He was empowered far beyond the normal bounds of his fellows and given a Divine mission to kill me. Obviously, Baelor did not succeed in his mission, save in poisoning my opinion of your fellow Chosen. How much time did Lucan spend to summon Baelor the Blessed, time he could have better spent ridding Westeros of monsters? Why send my ancestor to slay me when there are more Devil plots in these lands than can be counted on two hand?"
--[X] "Another Angel in Lucan's service, Roland, with whom I spoke cordially shortly before the Conclave first convened, did not believe Lucan would even deign to meet with me should I seek to parlay with him.
--[X] "So when I learned that mages in Lucan's service were here in Oldtown, I decided to take a chance, to risk the carefully cultivated persona I have used to great effect here in Westeros in order to learn what I believed was critical information. Were they, too, bound to serve yet another Westerosi master? Were they compelled to serve through fear or magic? If not, yet another false rumor would have been laid to rest, as have been many in these past days. If they were, I would have gladly freed them, as you must know there are few things I abhor more than slavery?"
---[X] "And if his mages were not coerced, but were in fact his companions, then that too could have been of use to me. Cold as it may seem, hostages might have allowed me to compel a meeting with the man."
-[X] "Now it is obvious that the Conclave is lost to me, though I assure you my intentions were honorable, at least as I see them. If you are willing to speak further on this matter, there is much you need to know which I hoped to bring to the attention of the Faith using my disguise as Dywen."
--[X] "Although the timing is quite awful and you have little reason to trust my intentions, I would like to invite you to Sorcerer's Deep, along with any you wish to accompany you. Before you call a land Hell-on-Earth, you should take the opportunity to walk its streets, meets those who call it home, and learn what has truly passed to make it as it now is. Let us make something of this sad state of affairs. If we cannot be friends, I would at least hope for an understanding between us, one which benefits all and harms none, for I suspect many of our goals are one and the same, despite what otherwise sets us apart."