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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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chryssalideater said:
Got it, thanks. Unfortunately, you seem to be incorrect about what the old gods require. Here's a DP post that clarifies:
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HELLO THERE NEIGHBOR! I am @BeepSmile bringer of joy* and presents* to all the good boys and girls

*both these words mean "Context"

Page link:
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover | Page 12028

If enough power to create a Legendary item isn't enough to cause the OG to chill the fuck out so that we can safely Tree Stride, then I'm much less interested in doing business with them from this point forward. Where's Yss' funnel?
It's just that they want specific people to die, then after that they'll chill
It's not a matter of how much power you give them, but who you take that power from. They want the Seven to suffer as they have suffered and that has not happened enough yet.
Will convincing Grafton to convert by sacrificing Corbray, then sacrificing Lucan be enough?
And here we reach DP's post you quoted in support of the position "to fulfill our bargain with the OG we need to splinter the faith"
Unfortunately not, it will probably take at least until the Faith explodes into squabbling denominations

Basically, that was referring to getting tree stride to be a safe thing to use without sacraficing something each time. Not "what do we have to do get get the OG to drop their Murderboner so that they, and the Seven, can focus on absolute threats as opposed to eachother."
 
BeepSmile said:
Basically, that was referring to getting tree stride to be a safe thing to use without sacraficing something each time. Not "what do we have to do get get the OG to drop their Murderboner so that they, and the Seven, can focus on absolute threats as opposed to eachother."
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Tree stride is being a pain because the Old Gods have a murder boner. So for both tree stride to be safe and for the Old Gods to drop their murder boner we have to splinter the faith. It is the most peaceful way (ie least blood involved) to do it and politically beneficial to us as a ruler.
 
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Ok, finally managing to start getting this down on my computer - issues with travel, they never fricking end. Thanks for all the points being raised by others, will have an outline up soonest.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Tree stride is being a pain because the Old Gods have a murder boner. So for both tree stride to be safe and for the Old Gods to drop their murder boner we have to splinter the faith.

It is the most peaceful way (ie least blood involved) to do it and politically beneficial to us as a ruler.
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There is a fallacy here, but I do not know it's name.

Tree stride is being a pain because the Old Gods have a murder boner." <- I read as true, Specifially, as incentive to deal with Murderboner problem OG have.

So for both tree stride to be safe and for the Old Gods to drop their murder boner we have to splinter the faith.

You are asserting that splintering the faith is needed to fulfill our bargain with the OG. And then go on to say it is the most peaceful way. So is it needed, or from your perspective, the most peaceful way, implying that there are ways that do not involve splintering the faith. So which is it?

Implying, in the predicate logic sense, not the fuzzy everyday use btw.

Oh, I read "splintering the faith" as "risking holy/civil war", and as different from "splintering the pantheon of the seven"

Our deal demands we "humble the seven". How we do that was left up to us.

Infact, splintering the faith might well be the bloodiest method available to us, now I think further, unless we basically micromanage the entire. Civil. War. Which we Can't do.

I see Lucan, and the angels of the seven, (and, hopefully Danielle), and I see vector, I see opportunity to go after the seven directly, humble them without risking a civil/holy war, or at least, massivly reduced risk.

Edit: the chosen of the seven might be enemy, they are, I would count, opponents, but I also see as "lever" by which we can change the Seven directly.
 
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[X] A Civilised Interrogation
-[X] Greet Gerald with no small amount of wonder, appropriate for one living in an age of miracles, but who has not truly seen one such as this before. This should be relatively easy, as we have not, in fact, ever met a Planetar before.
-[X] "I admit, I had come seeking Sister Maer [use a different title if it would be more appropriate] but the Seven must have blessed me this day for my steps to bring me to you, [Insert theological title for an angel] Gerald."
-[X] Allow time for one of them to ask why (one of them will), then continue, "After speaking with Brother Lucan this day, I believe I have been deceived by some among the rumours which followed his works. I was told that you, Sister, met with him before the Conclave, and believed that barring a companion of his which I had been unable to find after our debate," this is going to be a touch confused and respectfully leading, given the presence of a Planetar in the Sept now, "I had hoped you might be willing to aid me in finding where the whispers strayed from fact into fiction."
-[X] Turning to Gerald, "Yet who better than one who stood beside Brother Lucan at Crakehall to aid in that, if it would be reasonable to ask that?"
-[X] Aim after this is standard information gathering, attempting to learn more of Lucan through the lens of Dywen, having clearly found some of what he had been told by others to be false. Pursue this along the line of a simple man of Faith, simply attempting to learn more of a brother. This is also an excellent opportunity to learn more of Gerald himself, and show respectful interest in the man, leavened by some worldliness as to otherworldly beings, but only a fraction - Dywen's background the Reach, he'll have seen Fae before. This is different, but not completely so. Still, take care to not be too familiar, as that would be a powerful giveaway.
--[X] If the occasion presents itself, try to work in giving thanks for the act of the Faith taken to the crafting of helpful wonders, with the aim of pointing to the possible...implications of such work. Simple human fear, nothing more, but in Maer's mind at least it might plant a seed.

This is what I've got for now. Let me know what you think, people, and as always, suggestions are very much appreciated.
 
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BeepSmile said:
There is a fallacy here, but I do not know it's name.

Tree stride is being a pain because the Old Gods have a murder boner." <- I read as true, Specifially, as incentive to deal with Murderboner problem OG have.

So for both tree stride to be safe and for the Old Gods to drop their murder boner we have to splinter the faith.

You are asserting that splintering the faith is needed to fulfill our bargain with the OG. And then go on to say it is the most peaceful way. So is it needed, or from your perspective, the most peaceful way, implying that there are ways that do not involve splintering the faith. So which is it?

Implying, in the predicate logic sense, not the fuzzy everyday use btw.

Oh, I read "splintering the faith" as "risking holy/civil war", and as different from "splintering the pantheon of the seven"

Our deal demands we "humble the seven". How we do that was left up to us.

Infact, splintering the faith might well be the bloodiest method available to us, now I think further, unless we basically micromanage the entire. Civil. War. Which we Can't do.

I see Lucan, and the angels of the seven, (and, hopefully Danielle), and I see vector, I see opportunity to go after the seven directly, humble them without risking a civil/holy war, or at least, massivly reduced risk.

Edit: the chosen of the seven might be enemy, they are, I would count, opponents, but I also see as "lever" by which we can change the Seven directly.
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I see splintering them as the way Bloodraven had set it up. Multiple denomination of faith and different ideas of what the Seven are and represent. You make the assumption that civil war will occur immediately after they split. How long until we invade Westeros again? Last I remembered it was a couple of months till we would be ready. Unless they can gather the resources to fight a holy civil war immediately after this conclave then I simply do not see it happening as we will have taken over by then and do everything in our power to stop it including calling another conclave to hash it out.

As for the notion of directly using the Seven Chosen to humble the Seven. It is an interesting concept but not only would you have to turn Lucan who has a divine order to kill us, but you would also have to convince the Seven themselves (including the God who sent the order) that he was wrong to have committed the atrocities that put them in power and pay the Old Gods reparations that will satisfy the Old Gods. Unless our Diplo score is good enough to convince gods I don't see this plan working. After all the people who pray to them don't see the Andal Invasions as wrong. Not only that but it leaves a united faith to play politics whenever it needs to and I would rather have them squabble rather than deal with their politics.

I see the splintering as the best way because 1) It makes it so that a dominant religion in the region is too busy squabbling amongst itself rather than try to make political maneuvers on the crown. 2) Will give the Old Gods vengeance and peace of mind as they now don't have to worry about squabbling people cutting trees en mass because they are too busy squabbling( and because we are ruling). 3) Make it a whole lot easier to push for religious acceptance and tolerance as the dominant faith is so busy squabbling with it self that they won't attack the other minority faiths at the risk of being seen as unjust or having lost their way.
 
I think we need to make it clear that just as Lucan seems to have been made out to be a monster by rumor, it is just a likely that 'poor boy' Visery is nothing like rumor says he is. Have any of us even met him, talked to him, or seen his works? If not then how can we judge him a monster?

Something like that.
 
lancelot said:
I think we need to make it clear that just as Lucan seems to have been made out to be a monster by rumor, it is just a likely that 'poor boy' Visery is nothing like rumor says he is. Have any of us even met him, talked to him, or seen his works? If not then how can we judge him a monster?
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No. Fuck no, even. There is no logical reason for a Begging Brother from the Reach to hold that opinion. You might as well wave the Targ banner over our head. I get what you're aiming for here, but it's way too dangerous.
 
Snowfire said:
[X] A Civilised Interrogation
-[X] Greet Gerald with no small amount of wonder, appropriate for one living in an age of miracles, but who has not truly seen one such as this before. This should be relatively easy, as we have not, in fact, ever met a Planetar before.
-[X] "I admit, I had come seeking Sister Maer [use a different title if it would be more appropriate] but the Seven must have blessed me this day for my steps to bring me to you, [Insert theological title for an angel] Gerald."
-[X] Allow time for one of them to ask why (one of them will), then continue, "After speaking with Brother Lucan this day, I believe I have been deceived by some among the rumours which followed his works. I was told that you, Sister, met with him before the Conclave, and believed that barring a companion of his which I had been unable to find after our debate," this is going to be a touch confused and respectfully leading, given the presence of a Planetar in the Sept now, "I had hoped you might be willing to aid me in finding where the whispers strayed from fact into fiction."
-[X] Turning to Gerald, "Yet who better than one who stood beside Brother Lucan at Candlehall to aid in that, if it would be reasonable to ask that?"
-[X] Aim after this is standard information gathering, attempting to learn more of Lucan through the lens of Dywen, having clearly found some of what he had been told by others to be false. Pursue this along the line of a simple man of Faith, simply attempting to learn more of a brother. This is also an excellent opportunity to learn more of Gerald himself, and show respectful interest in the man, leavened by some worldliness as to otherworldly beings, but only a fraction - Dywen's background the Reach, he'll have seen Fae before. This is different, but not completely so. Still, take care to not be too familiar, as that would be a powerful giveaway.
--[X] If the occasion presents itself, try to work in giving thanks for the act of the Faith taken to the crafting of helpful wonders, with the aim of pointing to the possible...implications of such work. Simple human fear, nothing more, but in Maer's mind at least it might plant a seed.

This is what I've got for now. Let me know what you think, people, and as always, suggestions are very much appreciated.
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Crakehall.
 
On the matter of satiating Old Gods' bloodlust...

Honestly, do we have any better chocie than splintering the Faith?
Do we really?

Old Gods want Seven humbled.
Bloodraven set things up the way that would allow for least bloodshed.
And he would know which way is the best one, what with literally being connected to their collective.
If we don't follow through with that...

Well, we'll have to kill thousands, at the very lest.
Not just a house or two of Andals like we are doing already, but literally kill people until they stop actively waving Seven's banners.

I won't have any problem with that.
I value our pact with Old Gods much more than lives of Westerosi people, uneducated sheep as they may be.
Still, I get a feeling most people here, Viserys included, would prefer to keep to least bloodshed.
 
Snowfire said:
No. Fuck no, even. There is no logical reason for a Begging Brother from the Reach to hold that opinion. You might as well wave the Targ banner over our head. I get what you're aiming for here, but it's way too dangerous.
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Start asking people for 'facts' about us, and when they start spouting off rumors point it out. Ask if anyone has investigated the island, and gotten hard information, or is everything we know based on rumor. Don't take a side simply point out how dangerous it is to assume we know someone based on rumor using Brother Lucan as an example.
 
lancelot said:
Start asking people for 'facts' about us, and when they start spouting off rumors point it out. Ask if anyone has investigated the island, and gotten hard information, or is everything we know based on rumor. Don't take a side simply point out how dangerous it is to assume we know someone based on rumor using Brother Lucan as an example.
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This requires a reason for Viserys Targaryen to come up in conversation. If you can give me one, great. If not...just no.
 
egoo said:
On the matter of satiating Old Gods' bloodlust...

Honestly, do we have any better chocie than splintering the Faith?
Do we really?

Old Gods want Seven humbled.
Bloodraven set things up the way that would allow for least bloodshed.
And he would know which way is the best one, what with literally being connected to their collective.
If we don't follow through with that...

Well, we'll have to kill thousands, at the very lest.
Not just a house or two of Andals like we are doing already, but literally kill people until they stop actively waving Seven's banners.

I won't have any problem with that.
I value our pact with Old Gods much more than lives of Westerosi people, uneducated sheep as they may be.
Still, I get a feeling most people here, Viserys included, would prefer to keep to least bloodshed.
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Splintering the Faith, if we manage it, would ironically be the most merciful option. That's precisely why Bloodraven has been working towards this.
 
Duesal said:
Splintering the Faith, if we manage it, would ironically be the most merciful option. That's precisely why Bloodraven has been working towards this.
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Indeed. In case people haven't already figured out, splintering the faith is good because it means they're too busy bickering to do things like raise up tons of peasants and send them into the meat grinders of our forces in the name of the Seven.

Going all in on killing the chosen wouldn't work out quickly enough to prevent that.
 
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