Yes, the problem would be potentially uniting titles though their children. even if they split them to different siblings that will still create claims that no one would really want around. Of course it is ultimately up to Viserys and you guys, but Theon assumes you will go for prudence.
I really don't see how it would become all that bad, for the first generation there would be a Will stating who are to inherit what, and thereafter the claims are just the usual strength, no more problematic than nobles marrying into each others lines.
 
I really don't see how it would become all that bad, for the first generation there would be a Will stating who are to inherit what, and thereafter the claims are just the usual strength, no more problematic than nobles marrying into each others lines.

Landed nobles generally do not marry into each other's lines directly though. In the rare instances when a woman rules in her own right she tends to marry someone low in the line of succession and have him take her name. Also Wills do not actually mean much by Westerosi precedent. Look at what happened to Viserys the First.
 
Wills mean nothing. Also line of succession means only that you might have greater legitimacy in some circles than in others.

Both of these things only matter to people who benefit underneath a system which enforces a rule of law that supports either.

If the Realm itself is up for grabs, if the faction which hosts the "legitimate" I.E Desired Heir, is strongest, then it will probably end up following the previous ruler.

If it is not strong enough, it will probably be toppled because there will be other factors weighing in. Lords were constantly angling to try to influence succession and royal marriages of the Kingdom even during times where the Targs had dragons, for example.

Edit: Of course, obviously, with Dragons and a private, enormous, well-armed standing army, as well as powerful demigod champions and all the other goodies we have, and of course agelessness, this probably won't be an issue for Viserys, though he's so far outside the norm I wouldn't rely on this in most situations.
 
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@Snowfire I got to agree with Drake, while it's a nice little speech it only tangentially adresses Dany's concern: is it not better to let people have idols, even if they are false, considering the sheer amount of unrest, doubt and suffering massively upheaving their point of view would cause?

That's...not her issue at all. Her issue is the idea of that being something we will do, whereas she wants truth. How you got the idea that she wants to make this sort of deception commonplace from this line;

"Is the world better served with lies and idols? That scares me, the idea that all the world is a cosmic farce and that some people just get to peek behind the curtain."

Is pretty much beyond me. She's not trying to say that lies are better, she's saying it's bad that they're necessary and that we need to think about how to fix that. And bluntly, as far as I can see, we agree with her on that. This is just pointing out how it can be a difficult journey to abandon lies when they're part of a truth, but that's a journey we've helped people through before, and are bringing about across our entire kingdom at present. The Seven are just one more religion to eventually be tempered by truth. Nothing more.
 
On a different note is anyone else concerned about seeming illness that has swept up in the expedition fleet at all? Seems a little out of nowhere after all.
 
On a different note is anyone else concerned about seeming illness that has swept up in the expedition fleet at all? Seems a little out of nowhere after all.
Yeah, it's concerning, but the fleet has quite a few mage healers and can contact us for assistance at any time. I don't expect it to amount to much, whatever is causing the sickness.

/fingers crossed
 
Unless part of the symptoms is lack of common sense, they can send for more healers, or more qualified healers, with just a single use of a Whispering Brazier.

It'll be fine.
 
Yeah, it's concerning, but the fleet has quite a few mage healers and can contact us for assistance at any time. I don't expect it to amount to much, whatever is causing the sickness.

/fingers crossed
Unless part of the symptoms is lack of common sense, they can send for more healers, or more qualified healers, with just a single use of a Whispering Brazier.

It'll be fine.
While yes there are healers and potions on hand, and it doesn't appear sickness is harming fleet too badly, I'm more concerned that there is a delayed effect or once they reach various ports illness will act as a plague to less well prepared and fleet will be blamed for it.

Seems like a subtle attack that devils or deep ones could do if they wanted.
 
OK let's see. Vote tally.

Edit:that looks pretty solid. Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 6, 2019 at 3:35 PM, finished with 118 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] In the Land of the Blind...Cast Remove Blindness
    -[X] "Not silly at all. Remember how careful we had to be with mother when she asked about the gods on our way South?" A link back to a discussion of similar things.
    -[X] "It is different, of course. Mother was not well treated by the Seven, and Maer is an Elder Septa, which made it easier for her to accept the reality we know is true. But in the end, I don't believe that the truth must turn her against us, or break the faith which makes her who she is."
    -[X] "We know that the Seven are not acting together in Westeros. If that was not the case, then their Chosen would be working together under their guidance. As Gods, they cannot not know the truth of the world, Dany, even if some try to hide from it. Maer, and maybe Danelle, could be a way for us to spare many from the vengeance the Old Gods cry out for."
    -[X] "As for the true shape of the world? We are already teaching it, and I don't intend to stop. Much of the power of the Faith will be stripped from them when we retake Westeros, and I do not intend to grant them a monopoly over teaching and charitable enterprise. I think one only need look to Sorcerer's Deep to see that." Reference to the schools and orphanages we've been building, and how we're education our population. Also a note to how certain powers will be centralised to the Imperium during our conquest.
    -[X] "Westeros will require a delicate hand, but the truth has a place here, too. You added some of it to her world tonight, sister, even if it was under the guise of another. Once that's there, it doesn't go away." We've seen people take a fragment of truth and leverage it into much more before. No need to assume that's a purely Essosi trait.
    -[X] "I, we, will do with those how follow the Seven what we have already begun to do with those who follow the Red God. Religion will always endure, gods grant power that we cannot simply deny. But with the spread of knowledge of what Gods truly are, and how they do not hold dominion over the souls of mortals, how they're seen will change. And as their congregation changes, so will they. It'll take time, but we have that." The final goal is faith in full understanding of what it means. That the rewards are true, yes, but they're offered by all gods. And as the nature of faith changes, which it can, so too will the Gods to which that faith is given.
    [X] In the Land of the Blind...Cast Remove Blindness
 
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While yes there are healers and potions on hand, and it doesn't appear sickness is harming fleet too badly, I'm more concerned that there is a delayed effect or once they reach various ports illness will act as a plague to less well prepared and fleet will be blamed for it.

Seems like a subtle attack that devils or deep ones could do if they wanted.

Okay.

So then next vote, we send someone to go deal with it.

Simple enough. Something unusual like this probably would have made it into the regular reports, so we should be appraised of it.
 
Winning vote

[] In the Land of the Blind...Cast Remove Blindness
-[] "Not silly at all. Remember how careful we had to be with mother when she asked about the gods on our way South?" A link back to a discussion of similar things.
-[X] "It is different, of course. Mother was not well treated by the Seven, and Maer is an Elder Septa, which made it easier for her to accept the reality we know is true. But in the end, I don't believe that the truth must turn her against us, or break the faith which makes her who she is."
-[] "We know that the Seven are not acting together in Westeros. If that was not the case, then their Chosen would be working together under their guidance. As Gods, they cannot not know the truth of the world, Dany, even if some try to hide from it. Maer, and maybe Danelle, could be a way for us to spare many from the vengeance the Old Gods cry out for."
-[] "As for the true shape of the world? We are already teaching it, and I don't intend to stop. Much of the power of the Faith will be stripped from them when we retake Westeros, and I do not intend to grant them a monopoly over teaching and charitable enterprise. I think one only need look to Sorcerer's Deep to see that." Reference to the schools and orphanages we've been building, and how we're education our population. Also a note to how certain powers will be centralised to the Imperium during our conquest.
-[] "Westeros will require a delicate hand, but the truth has a place here, too. You added some of it to her world tonight, sister, even if it was under the guise of another. Once that's there, it doesn't go away." We've seen people take a fragment of truth and leverage it into much more before. No need to assume that's a purely Essosi trait.
-[] "I, we, will do with those how follow the Seven what we have already begun to do with those who follow the Red God. Religion will always endure, gods grant power that we cannot simply deny. But with the spread of knowledge of what Gods truly are, and how they do not hold dominion over the souls of mortals, how they're seen will change. And as their congregation changes, so will they. It'll take time, but we have that." The final goal is faith in full understanding of what it means. That the rewards are true, yes, but they're offered by all gods. And as the nature of faith changes, which it can, so too will the Gods to which that faith is given.
 
Part MMDCCCXIX: A Dearth of Patience
A Dearth of Patience

Thirteenth Day of the Ninth Month 293 AC

"Not silly at all. Remember how careful we had to be with mother when she asked about the gods on our way south?" you ask, carefully laying your arguments down in your mind. There are no simple answers, but that does not mean there are no answers at all.

"Well yes, but mother is mother, born of the blood of dragons even as we are, blind supplication is not our vice," Dany replies, taking a different track than the one you had expected, but no less valid for all that. She pauses a moment and adds: "Well except for King Baelor, but one can only hope his existence purged that form of madness from our line for good." Let it not be said that Dany lets a small thing like True Death get in the way of her grudges, you think amused.

"We know that the Seven are not acting together in Westeros," you point out. Baelor for one seemed very much the work of the Father, or perhaps the Warrior. "If that was not the case then their Chosen would be working together under their guidance. As gods, they cannot not know the truth of the world, Dany, even if some try to hide from it. Maer, and maybe Danelle, could be a way for us to spare many from the vengeance the Old Gods cry out for."

Your sister banishes the Dream with a thought, hardly pausing between waking and sleeping in your discussion. "I'm not concerned about that. Uncle Brynden will handle the Old Gods. I worry about the people who are going to think they are left with nothing... at best that would make their fears reality. At worst True Nothingness might take note." She motions to the window opening northwards to frozen vistas far away.

"That is why we have lawmen and inquisitors, though above all else we have teachers. We are already teaching the true shape of the world, and I don't intend to stop. Much of the power of the Faith will be stripped from them when we retake Westeros, and I do not intend to grant them a monopoly over teaching and charitable enterprise. I think one only need look to Sorcerer's Deep to see that."

She nods, not fully convinced but less troubled as she packs up the sleeping powder the two of you had used to enter the Dream.

"The Seven Kingdoms will require a delicate hand, but the truth has a place here too," you continue. "You added some of it to the world tonight, sister, even if it was under the guise of another. Once that's there, it doesn't go away."

Dany tilts her head in askance: "Then how is it the world is overrun by lies? Say rather that we are not going anywhere."

"Fair point," you nod. "We will do with those who follow the Seven what we have already begun to do with those who follow the Red God. Religion will always endure, gods grant power that we cannot simply deny. But with the spread of knowledge of what gods truly are, and how they do not hold dominion over the souls of mortals, how they're seen will change. And as their congregation changes, so will they. It'll take time, but we have that."

"The one thing I have never been able to learn from the Dragon Dream is patience, perhaps it will come in time but..." a familiar impish smile flashes on her face. "I wish it would hurry up already."

***​

With only three days until the Conclave begins in earnest Dany is not the only one grappling with matters of the Faith's future and its purpose, though most do it with markedly less subtly. Several members in Most Devout Septa Aglantine's entourage had clashed with the locals over fiery sermons delivered on the steps of local brothels and alehouses, leading to a dozen arrests and far more in the way of broken bones and injured pride. According to Lord Hightower's sources the septa herself was likely quite blameless of the excess of zeal, but that did not stop stones from flying through the widows of the inn where the the most prominent members of the delegation are staying, driving them to sequester themselves in prayer and meditation until the first vote.

It will be far from easy to meet with Aglantine, perhaps enough so that it is not worth the attempt given the fact that hers is likely to be at once one of the most solid factions and the one whose leader is most restrained by virtue of the fact that their allegiance is to the absent High Septon.

You are half tempted to see if you can intercept any ravens or even travel to King's Landing to see if Bloodraven can give you a better measure of the man whose absence hangs over the Conclave and whose quill and seal might yet undo any decisions the Conclave reaches.

What do you do next?

[] Remain in Oldtown
-[] Speak at Septon Kyle's gathering (Write in)
-[] Attempt to speak to Most Devout Septa Aglantine somehow (Write in)
-[] Infiltrate the Cidadel (Write in)

[] Travel to KL to see if you can speak with 'Varys' (Includes minor action questions)

[] Write in


OOC: A short bridge chapter, but it had to happen since the last part lacked a tactical vote.
 
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Includes minor action questions
Would it be completely safe to discuss the sort of thing we want anywhere outside his grove?
We are talking
-[X] Gather on the lore of Green Dream and what else the Old Gods' collective can share with you on creation of deity-like systems.
--[X] Additionaly, try to gain a better understanding of just how much power do Old Gods hold, how much of an increase to them is sacrifice, and how particular effects (heart trees grown in unique circumstances like leylines or other planes) affect their pool of power.
-[X] Ask Old Gods about the artifact given to you by the Faceless Man, you have a suspicion it might be counting down to an event they, too, feel coming.
-[X] Ask him if a divine Avatar like Yss' or Bitch-Queen's can be turned into a sort of syphon, permanently seeping off power from the deity.
but also what OGs will want for partaking in creation of Tiamat-Snare.

Aren't those kinda too sensitive subjects?
 
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Would it be completely safe to discuss the sort of thing we want anywhere outside his grove?
We are talking
but also what OGs will want for partaking in creation of Tiamat-Snare.

Aren't those kinda too sensitive subjects?

True, you could just talk in the grove, but you are a little low on sacrifices right now. You would have to summon and sacrifice something if you don't want to use the GC's mages.
 
You would have to summon
*cough*
[X] Even with all your power, you cannot make a dent in Mammon's forces. Not yet. What you can do, however, is to ruin as many plans of his as you can reach to.
-[X] Summon Mammon-aligned Devils from the 124 True Name-long list known thanks to codex-Uniila. Since no Erynies remain among this number, prioritise Lardering.
In the background, we should have been doing that already.
Just, like, give us 1 imp less than you would have otherwise when you'll be rolling numbers by the end of month?
:/
 
[X] Travel to Bloodraven's grove via a Heart Tree
-[X] Use one of the Devils you have been summoning and capturing up until this point as a sacrifice to satiate Old Gods for the trip.

I'd rather ask questions in a place where no one can "ask earth", or do some psychic bullshit and learn anything about this.
I'm paranoid, yes.
I think I'm in full right to be, considering just how important Fake!Varys is for our plans, and what we are discussing here.

@DragonParadox, any need to write up questions now?
 
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