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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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065tdsa said:
Except if they all acted like the Erinyes, Hell would be a nice place to live in, and they'd never really bother coming here since the Blood War is clearly more important. These are both false so we know they do not.
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They come here for the same reasons the Erinyes do. Demons are born of unfettered mortal sins, so any mortal soul that can be consigned to Hell rather than the Abyss is a win for the Blood War. As for the upper planes... they are useless anyway so why not take those souls too?
 
For what it's worth, I read Snowfire's vote as "My fundamental course is correct but I do have this blindspot and these things seem like reasonable critiques that I didn't see due to that blindspot and I should address them because they may be things I could do better". I've always just been a reader so I'm lacking some of the personal elements here but I don't see Snowfire's thing as a huge deviation from Viserys' path already. I mean the player base already recognized the pitfalls of the grain price thing and had something in place to address it this month so it's not a remarkably different evolution.

I also have an issue with D&D's alignment system, both as a GM & as a player, in that pragmatic decisions often become forced towards evil because that's how the morality of a hack and slash fun game tends to go once you apply much higher levels of reasoning to them, but that's something that's been litigated for hundreds of pages here and I'm not going to add more to that. I also married a lawyer so that's where some of that comes from. I fundamentally agree with Azel a lot, as a lurker, so I don't really see this as a huge deviation from his general broadstrokes.

I didn't read all of the pages between this and my last post so apologies if I touched off something that had already died down.
 
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DragonParadox said:
They come here for the same reasons the Erinyes do. Demons are born of unfettered mortal sins, so any mortal soul that can be consigned to Hell rather than the Abyss is a win for the Blood War. As for the upper planes... they are useless anyway so why not take those souls too?
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I think that's the "foot soldiers" view of things, probably.

If Asmodeus was of a mind to be diplomatic (if he could have been trusted, which he cannot), that might be a different policy entirely.

Cooperation was impossible the moment Asmodeus went beyond sanity and into megalomania.
 
[X] Snowfire

Though I wish the Mammon machine were added.
I just know that every piece of Valyrian steel we create adds to the writhing body of the fourteenth in the center of Old Valyria.

...also though I loved the latest Doom game I don't think of Samuel Hayden as a role model.

Snowfire said:
There are some things behind the scenes going on here, but I'm not going to get into them now. Suffice to say that Viserys is extremely intrigued.
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Of course he is! If he were not Lya would divorce him!
 
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dpara said:
[X] Snowfire

Though I wish the Mammon machine were added.
I just know that every piece of Valyrian steel we create adds to the writhing body of the fourteenth in the center of Old Valyria.

...also though I loved the latest Doom game I'm not sure if Samuel Hayden is a role model.
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Hell energy is the most optimum Green plan!
 
DragonParadox said:
They come here for the same reasons the Erinyes do. Demons are born of unfettered mortal sins, so any mortal soul that can be consigned to Hell rather than the Abyss is a win for the Blood War. As for the upper planes... they are useless anyway so why not take those souls too?
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Yeah... Except Mereth literally ditched Hell and her godlike overlord because she hated the work she was doing and would rather kill demons at the Abyss. Guess she slept through the class the day when they explained the importance of mortal soul collecting?
 
Slacker said:
For what it's worth, I read Snowfire's vote as "My fundamental course is correct but I do have this blindspot and these things seem like reasonable critiques that I didn't see due to that blindspot and I should address them because they may be things I could do better". I've always just been a reader so I'm lacking some of the personal elements here but I don't see Snowfire's thing as a huge deviation from Viserys' path already. I mean the player base already recognized the pitfalls of the grain price thing and had something in place to address it this month so it's not a remarkably different evolution.
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This is a good summary of my vote, actually. Thanks :)
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 12:20 PM, finished with 305566 posts and 48 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
    -[X] Set up indipendant judges and have them ask for warrents to spy on your citizens
    -[X] Further limit what you can use as sacrifice (Write in)
    -[X] No mortal or those whose souls can be saved. Atleast try and rehabilitate them for a few months. Have them swear to one of the gods so thier soul are not damned
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (Write in)
    -[X] Against no mortals no WMDs
    -[X] Put precautions in place in the case of human experimentation/flesh-forging (Write in)
    -[X] have proper courses and studies done on thier effcts on people. Only use bodies voluntired for that purpose.
    -[X] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
    -[X] Try to limit the grain crises you had set up (Write in)
    -[X] try to find some magical use for large amount of grain. Like good for a potion or something, leak it to westros.
    -[x] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths
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Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 12:32 PM, finished with 305577 posts and 50 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
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065tdsa said:
Yeah... Except Mereth literally ditched Hell and her godlike overlord because she hated the work she was doing and would rather kill demons.
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Not quite, it's because she was facing the prospect of oblivion on one hand and epic diplomacy promising her a new way on the other. It bears remembering that some Erinyes still refuse you and chose soul-death over changing.
 
Snowfire said:
This is a good summary of my vote, actually. Thanks :)
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I mean Viserys' arc is that he's clearly doing something that hasn't been done in the setting before. It's natural he's going to have blind spots even being pragmatic and trying to do what's best for his realm. The issue is that Viserys doesn't really have people who can really be a critical lens at this point, because the Companions would literally walk through hell like murderhobos for him and he has no real peers that are worthy of respect-and that would, as a result, be someone Viserys could take criticism from at face value. So I guess the echo of a dead god is probably the best opportunity for reflection he's gonna get.
 
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The crazy demon said:
Well, thats a given because Viserys already is.

We don't kill children or have people raped.
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If this is the bar we are aiming to clear...

And do you forget the other adventuring parties around?

The high level one Tywin has influence on seem to be genuinely decent human beings, despite being our enemies.

I see Snowfire's vote as Viserys seeing that some roads can become quite slippery and addressing the issues without compromising his course, while just accepting our current course as something that can lead to truly dark places.
 
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Destrark said:
EDITED: [X] Snowfire.

At least until I finish catching up and actually see the new version of your vote, might change it back if I like the old one more.
2nd EDIT: Caught up, yep, I really like Algalon's thoughts on the inquisition so I'll happily support your current platform.
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Your vote is not counted by the tallying program like this, it needs to be on a new line.
 
DragonParadox said:
Not quite, it's because she was facing the prospect of oblivion on one hand and epic diplomacy promising her a new way on the other. It bears remembering that some Erinyes still refuse you and chose soul-death over changing.
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Wait, we never threatened Erinyes with true death.

Those we captured in battle with regular death and those we summoned for recruitment we explicitly offered a chance to just go back to Hell so they wouldn't be forced into this.
 
@Snowfire, having re-read your vote, I also have a big problem with
-[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
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We're already using what falls under WMDs and their likes on case-to-case basis.
Why limit ourselves in such a way? Why add moral quandary to a later choice?

Under a certain lense, us using the flying ships can be counted as WMD, what with all the alchemical works Goldfish set up.
Same can be said about Drakenbeasts doing "Fuck that particular battlefield, everything burns".

Do we have to have seconds thoughts on these things?
Do we need to autimatically discount (on moral grounds IC) even an idea of using high-grade magics agaisnt anything that is existential threat?

I say nay, and let's leave it at that.
...Echoing back to my stance on Maelephant's Breathweapon, having a choice is important, even if we never take it.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Wait, we never threatened Erinyes with true death.

Those we captured in battle with regular death and those we summoned for recruitment we explicitly offered a chance to just go back to Hell so they wouldn't be forced into this.
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I don't actually remember what we were sacrificing for that day, but we almost certainly couldn't threaten the whole lot of them with true death, what with Yss' slow digestive system. Most of them probably went to the tree. And being fair, while regular death is essentially a huge timeout for Devils, going to the Tree is being de-powered, and therefore possibly turned into an Imp.

Fate worse than true death, right there.
 
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