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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Can we...

First: A lot the non military things that we can take are things that will help us in the long run that will work better the earlier we run with them. And having more time before attention is drawn to us is also good because we can work to make people's lives better as well as expand. If we want to diplomatically and economically we need to start now when we have the chance to start with these options in place from the go.

And...

We're running the risk of becoming that fabled army with a state, because it might end up being a feedback loop where we keep having to feeding lives and taxes into the grinder from moment one. There's not going to be a chance to step back and focus on the essential base of a successful state. We're not going to have the chance to establish the peace before we give way to an endless military emergency.

I'm not saying that this will happen. By no means. But we run the risk of entering into too risky a situation too early on moving from starving military situation to starving military situation where we are forced to burn everything in the furnace of war. And we will not have the time, attention, or resources to spare to building the foundation for a prosperous and secure democracy. We will be a lean wolf of a people that devours its own for survival. And it will have to be that way so the reactionaries do not slaughter us. We will have to vote that way.

With Old Guard and Last Echo we are going to have to commit much more fully to the military to survive the initial and inevitable confrontation. And once we start down that path forever will it dominate our destiny.

Do you think the Victorians are going to stop once they've started?

They're fascists, the endless conflict is desired because they believe that it will make them strong. They already send their best overseas to die to achieve that. Even if we win. Once they start, they will not stop, and we will not be able to divert resources away from the military, we will not be able to build up a knowledge or economic base that allows us to contest them from deep pockets and a secure position. We will not start from a stable democracy. It will be war and war, and fighting after fighting.

Again, this is not 100% likely, maybe not even over a coin flip in chance. But I bet you can follow me along this line of reasoning and see how easy it is for the military realities of the situation to require "hard choice" after "hard choice" until we've starved our way to victory. And, It Will, Be, The, Military at the head of that victory, not the culture, not the people, not the civilian government. And the army will want it's say and we will give it to them because it has always been that way, a beloved military dictatorship wrapped in red, white, and blue. A more inclusive Victoria.

People were worried about the chance of the communists taking over and morphing into Stalin. (And even then the CPSU emerged out of an endless desperate war for survival!) How many military dictatorships have their been in history? How many times have successful generals shot their way onto thrones and into crowns? We risk popular Sullas, Cromwells, Napoleons, and Stalins. If we're lucky we'll get a Bolivar!

If you are voting for a military strategy or to put the Accords government into military conflict right away, you need to bear in mind the risk, that we be endlessly feeding the military for necessary reasons of national security until it is all that is left. If you make that vote, make it with the knowledge that you may be committing us to avoiding building peace, prosperity, and democracy, and instead plunging the new America into a perilous war where we can't see or control what comes out the other side.
 
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[X][BOSS] The Old Boss: The Daleys have been big names in Chicago since the '50s. The 1950s. A hundred and twenty years of political prominence will grind itself in. You're no different. Your family managed to hold onto its influence throughout the collapse, and you were the one to take charge of things afterward, leveraging various friendships you made during the bad years. Chicago's been on the outs too long. The Daleys will be the ones to bring it back.
[x][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
AKuz said:
Can we...

First: A lot the non military things that we can take are things that will help us in the long run that will work better the earlier we run with them. And having more time before attention is drawn to us is also good because we can work to make people's lives better as well as expand. If we want to diplomatically and economically we need to start now when we have the chance to start with these options in place from the go.

And...

We're running the risk of becoming that fabled army with a state, because it might end up being a feedback loop where we keep having to feeding lives and taxes into the grinder from moment one. There's not going to be a chance to step back and focus on the essential base of a successful state. We're not going to have the chance to establish the peace before we give way to an endless military emergency.

I'm not saying that this will happen. By no means. But we run the risk of entering into too risky a situation too early on moving from starving military situation to starving military situation where we are forced to burn everything in the furnace of war. And we will not have the time, attention, or resources to spare to building the foundation for a prosperous and secure democracy. We will be a lean wolf of a people that devours its own for survival. And it will have to be that way so the reactionaries do not slaughter us. We will have to vote that way.

With Old Guard and Last Echo we are going to have to commit much more fully to the military to survive the initial and inevitable confrontation. And once we start down that path forever will it dominate our destiny.

Do you think the Victorians are going to stop once they've started?

They're fascists, the endless conflict is desired because they believe that it will make them strong. They already send their best overseas to die to achieve that. Even if we win. Once they start, they will not stop, and we will not be able to divert resources away from the military, we will not be able to build up a knowledge or economic base that allows us to contest them from deep pockets and a secure position. We will not start from a stable democracy. It will be war and war, and fighting after fighting.

Again, this is not 100% likely, maybe not even over a coin flip in chance. But I bet you can follow me along this line of reasoning and see how easy it is for the military realities of the situation to require "hard choice" after "hard choice" until we've starved our way to victory. And, It Will, Be, The, Military at the head of that victory, not the culture, not the people, not the civilian government. And the army will want it's say and we will give it to them because it has always been that way, a beloved military dictatorship wrapped in red, white, and blue. A more inclusive Victoria.

People were worried about the chance of the communists taking over and morphing into Stalin. (And even then the CPSU emerged out of an endless desperate war for survival!) How many military dictatorships have their been in history? How many times have successful generals shot their way onto thrones and into crowns? We risk popular Sullas, Cromwells, Napoleons, and Stalins. If we're lucky we'll get a Bolivar!

If you are voting for a military strategy or to put the Accords government into military conflict right away, you need to bear in mind the risk, that we be endlessly feeding the military for necessary reasons of national security until it is all that is left. If you make that vote, make it with the knowledge that you may be committing us to avoiding building peace, prosperity, and democracy, and instead plunging the new America into a perilous war where we can't see or control what comes out the other side.
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Hrm.

I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm like 51% convinced, so I'll change my vote to Local Hero.

I still think a decent foundation combined with a decent army is a strong opener. But I'm worried everyone will sink all our starting points into even more military and security stuff instead of the infrastructure and institutions necessary to make this whole thing work.
 
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[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.

[x][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
[x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards
 
As of this posting, the vote stands at:

Local Hero: 34+4 = 38
The Old Guard: 33+4+1 = 38
The Last Echo: 13+5+1 = 19
Springfield Schemer: 2
The Old Boss: 2
 
[X][BOSS] The Old Boss: The Daleys have been big names in Chicago since the '50s. The 1950s. A hundred and twenty years of political prominence will grind itself in. You're no different. Your family managed to hold onto its influence throughout the collapse, and you were the one to take charge of things afterward, leveraging various friendships you made during the bad years. Chicago's been on the outs too long. The Daleys will be the ones to bring it back.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.

...egads. Everyone hates Traditional Politicians?

IRL it's most likely that it's a TraPo that is going to be the one to jumpstart recovery in an apocalyptic event.
 
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It's worth pointing out we're going to be expanding as much by diplomacy as we are by military force. In fact, given how the Victorians wrecked everything with their blunt force methods, it may be a good idea to go with the Local Hero who made her name defending the city against Nazis instead of a battle-hardened veteran who looks a smidge like a warlord to anyone who would be suspicious of us for any reason. Better to have someone who is known for defending what they have, which implies a lack of desire to impose things at gunpoint, than someone who has a record of warfare as that could spook a lot of potential diplomatic partners.

Consider this: the last bunch of people to go tooling around the country by force were the Vickies and at that time they were led by warmongers like Kraft and Rumford. Do we really want to potentially put the fear of another Kraft & Rumford in the hearts of our neighbors when we could win over much more by having our basics together, showing we can build a functional society and peacefully winning our core support over? It's also much cheaper to keep things together, in every sense of the word, through a voluntary coalition than needing to expend resources on military occupations.

I'm not saying going with the Old Guard automatically means endless war but it may be seen that way by our neighbors. That could mean more struggle than necessary.
 
Eh.
If we go with Old Guard, we may have an opportunity to create another defender of the Chicago.

Two are always better than one, yes?
 
Wow, I didn't even realize this was here. Well done, getting this to 140 pages so quickly. I'll have to come join.

[X][BOSS] Springfield Schemer: Illinois did not fall to the Nazis. The state government pulled through all of the chaos just fine...and when you came to the Governor's office, you made sure to keep an eye on things. When Chicago started pulling itself together, you were far-sighted enough to recognize the opportunity. You left for Chicago and put your political skills to work on trying to build something bigger than your own patch. A fair amount of people have taken your foresight for aggression, though. You will need to keep your eyes about you.
[X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.

I realize that Marsden is pretty far behind, but it's really hard to bring myself to care about a vote between a career soldier and a local warlord. Johnson liberated Chicago from the Nazis and held onto power ever since then? Yeah, really screams democrat. So I'll vote for the two who'd have brought the Chicago Convention into being politically, and then see what happens.

[X][GOV] Do not form a coalition. Rule with a minority government.
is my preferred solution to the government question, because it establishes a precedent for parties not having total control of the government, which will be a good foundation for Madisonian democracy. Might make it harder to get where we're going, but we'd have a freer government by the end of it.

That having been said, if there has to be a majority coalition it's better to have as many voices at the coalition table as possible, so
[X][GOV] Just to lock down the government completely, also invite the Capitalists. You are Social Democrats; the only people you don't like are Communists. Of course...the New Capitalists and the Socialists really don't like one another...
-[X][GOV] Cave to the Socialists on healthcare and the New Capitalists on unions. Roll a d100 with a DC of 50 to sell this to both parties; on a fail, the New Capitalists back out.
also gets my vote.
 
[X][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.

I find the concerns that we'll somehow turn into a military state to be a bit ridiculous. You can say a lot of thing about SV, but we're not exactly the most militaristic bunch and people are only going to vote for the military options out of necessity.
 
[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions.
 
We have 52 voters who want to add the healthcare policy. That's a good thing, right? However, because Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP) requires we first have Independent Merchants (-2 CP), in total it costs as much CP as the nuke. The Old Guard not only starts with 2 less CP but requires we spend even more CP on military and intelligence options. We might not be able to afford Widespread Vaccinations, and given how freaking expensive it is to get we probably won't be able to get there after game start without many turns and expensive investment going towards it. (And we'll be vulnerable to deadly diseases the entire time.) The CP budget is tight and every 2 or 3 point disadvantage is not small. We cannot start the game with both a military immediately strong enough to fight the Victorians and an economy+diplomacy strong enough to support that military. We have to compromise somewhere, and starting the game with a weak economic and diplomatic base will be nothing short of disastrous in the long run.
 
[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
[X][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.​
 
Don't actually care which of the two win (I vote for both) but to play devil's advocate, one of the big advantages of the military start is the opportunity for a short victorious war confrontation.

Consider: Victoria has for decades been blessed with both Russian backing and plot shields. With these they have essentially walked over all opposition. Suddenly Russia is busy and the GM is revoking their cheat mode. But they don't now that yet. Which means when a new nation puts itself together on their doorstep they are going to saunter in as they always have expecting an easy win.
If they fail to get that win, if we withstand their espionage and throw back their invasion it will rock them to the core. Not enough to destroy them but with their fragile setup we can deal immense damage without even reaching their territory. Additionally if we manage to survive Victoria's attention we will be the first nation to do so in half a century. Neighbouring territory will beg to join us. Anyone still willing to fight against Victoria will flock to us, bringing whatever goodies they can carry.

I see this choice less as 'risky vs safe' and more as what order we want to do this in.
Do we want a bit of time to build up, during which Victoria will figure out they are on their own and need to work for it?
Or do we want surprise on our side, with an early victory buying us the breathing room to establish ourselves?
 
[x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
[x][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost
 
[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You willsee things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the unions issue. You're a little leery of granting them that much power, but it's not like there's no need for strong unions.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
I really think old guard is a mistake with very good reasons suggested. But I guess people dont give a shit.
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Or we don't agree with the premise.

Updating vote:
[X][BOSS] The Old Guard
[X][BOSS] The Last Echo
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
[X][BOSS] Local Hero: You first came to prominence as a young woman during the neo-Nazi occupation of the northern Midwest. You fought back against them, helped to throw them out, and presided over the slow emptying of Chicago in the aftermath. Since then you've been managing the city and keeping it on life support. You've slowly built things back up and forged a new state around your home. You will see things fixed once more. You will ensure that your home never again knows the terror of being at a monster's mercy. You will do what is necessary, to the shores of Maine if you must.

[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[X][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
Then give a rebuttal regarding why putting military over literally everything else and getting us attacked sooner than later is superior to every other choice we can make, and Oorah fuck yeah America, let's kick ass is not a good reasoning.

It's not insulting to say people are making a mistake.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
Then give a rebuttal regarding why putting military over literally everything else and getting us attacked sooner than later is superior to every other choice we can make, and Oorah fuck yeah America, let's kick ass is not a good reasoning.

It's not insulting to say people are making a mistake.
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...because Old Guard gives you the military and option flexibility to be able to take all those nice economic perks, plus a hopefully huge amount of legitimacy for snapping Victoria's military over your back like a dry twig? Like, you know that Canon Omake: Jousting At Windmills? That was a single Abrams tank. The Old Guard start gives us an entire battalion of those. If we wanted to, we could probably launch a decisive engagement immediately, and instantly destroy the majority of Victoria's firepower.

Then we can use the remaining 4 CP to invest in stuff like libraries and universities and independent merchants and vaccinations. Possibly Revivalist Connections, if we wanted to instantly diploannex most of our neighbors.

(still voting for The Last Echo, because hardmodo diplomacy is gogogo)
 
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