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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.
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Thor's Twin said:
Unless the argument has become that the procreation with Zeqing was done under false pretenses and that's why Zeqing bound him for eternity. But if that is the crime he committed, then the theory of retribution would entail an equal punishment... such as the killing of one of the man's children. Firstborn preferably.
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Yeah, but he doesn't have any other firstborn children, and Zeqing devouring Hanyi was always going to be in the cards before Ling Qi's intervention.

No one is saying that Ling Qi doesnt represent an element of clemency, so let's not pretend that this isnt where this is going.

The punishment is coming to an end, one way or the other.
 
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.

[X] It is justified, but hasn't it gone on long enough? It could not be helpful to Zeqing or her daughter

Yeah, a spirit of endings holding onto a bad love is not healthy. End him and move on.
 
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[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.

FakePriest said:
I think you forgetting that Zeqing isn't human, she is 'a spirit of spirit of darkness, of desire and covetousness' it's in her nature to be this possessive and cruel. Human justice doesn't apply to her in full manner and how should she know about what justice is in the first place?
It's gone for too long, yes. She shouldn't hold him anymore, but trying to apply human justice and morale here isn't a correct course of actions.
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The fact that Zeqing is naturally inclined to be insanely vengeful should not give her carte blanche to indulge her obsessions. It's "in her nature" to eat or abandon her daughter too, and yet I still think Ling should try very hard to change her mind.
 
[X] She could, the man had made his choices and here they led. She only worried that holding on to him like this hurt Zeqing and Hanyi.
[X] It is justified, but hasn't it gone on long enough? It could not be helpful to Zeqing or her daughter
 
[X] She could, the man had made his choices and here they led. She only worried that holding on to him like this hurt Zeqing and Hanyi.
 
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.

I don't agree with pushing forward a theory of consequences. And I've found that the theory of retribution fails utterly at justifying what has been done.

TehChron said:
Yeah, but he doesn't have any other firstborn children, and Zeqing devouring Hanyi was always going to be in the cards before Ling Qi's intervention.

No one is saying that Ling Qi doesnt represent an element of clemency, so let's not pretend that this isnt where this is going.

The punishment is coming to an end, one way or the other.
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I'm... not pretending that the ending of the suffering isn't where this is going. I was merely pointing out what the theory of retribution may consider just for a theoretical crime of procreation under false pretenses. Which is a marked contrast to what actually happened.
 
[X] It is justified, but hasn't it gone on long enough? It could not be helpful to Zeqing or her daughter
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.
Adhoc vote count started by Rhydarson on Mar 11, 2019 at 6:08 PM, finished with 11932 posts and 24 votes.
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Zeqing: Do you think he deserved such punishment?
Ling Qi: No, because it hurts you.

... Where's logic?

Answering 'no' because of Zeqing is meta reasoning. For all we know maybe she has already decided to let him go and now asks if she is a horrible monster or a woman executing deserved punishment.

She doesn't ask if she should let him go. She asks if he deserved what he got. Let's answer that question.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I'm... not pretending that the ending of the suffering isn't where this is going. I was merely pointing out what the theory of retribution may consider just for a theoretical crime of procreation under false pretenses. Which is a marked contrast to what actually happened.
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Yeah, but you framing this stuff in a pure vacuum is a false pretense.

From the very start, the context of this question was always going to be "Was the path to this point justifiable?", rather than an abstract "Should this state of affairs continue?" or something else.

Essentially, did Zeqing have a right to inflict this punishment? I believe that she did, both under the theory of consequences and the fundamental right of self defense inherent to sapient beings.
 
bird yells said:
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.


The fact that Zeqing is naturally inclined to be insanely vengeful should not give her carte blanche to indulge her obsessions. It's "in her nature" to eat or abandon her daughter too, and yet I still think Ling should try very hard to change her mind.
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LQ would try to do that in any option that we chose, i am just saying that we shouldn't judge Zeqing as if she is human, she isn't.
 
[X] It is justified, but hasn't it gone on long enough? It could not be helpful to Zeqing or her daughter
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Mar 11, 2019 at 6:11 PM, finished with 11937 posts and 26 votes.
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[X] It is justified, but hasn't it gone on long enough? It could not be helpful to Zeqing or her daughter
It fits my stance pretty much perfectly. It's sort of the middle option, and so it's not interestingly clear cut, but morality seldom is.
Alectai said:
And that's why she had that reaction to our insight. Because Ling Qi is Wind at the core even if she's bolted on the other things. She can let go, it's even baked into the Insight we got from her teachings.
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Very good post. Taking it one step further: This isn't our moment of tribulation and growth, it's Zeqing's. We just happen to be unfortunately close, and the one who kicked it off (I'm pretty sure "gaining revelation a pupils understanding" is a trope).
In that light, it actually makes sense that the option are all pretty similar. It's all "he was a dick, you should let go", the only difference is how bothered Ling is by the whole torment bit (and then it ranges from 'not really' to 'somewhat'). Because we're not acting here, it's Zeqing. Our role is as a witness, and perhaps pointing the right direction.

Speculation on somewhat more shaky grounds: This is likely the Ending of our apprenticeship. We have, after all, grasped something Zeqing hasn't, and taught her, if inadvertently. It's not surpassing the master, but maybe graduating to journeywoman.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Yes it does.

There is no question he was attempting to bind Zeqing and was using Hannyi as a tool towards that end.

But the crime was not the act of procreation. The crime would have been the enslavement of Zeqing for perpetuity. Which he failed to do. That Zeqing helped forge the very chains the man would use to bind her does not mean that the man actually bound her. It was still in the attempt phase because he was stopped half-way through the act of committing a crime. That's part of the very definition of "attempted crime" that one took a substantial step towards completing the crime.

Unless the argument has become that the procreation with Zeqing was done under false pretenses and that's why Zeqing bound him for eternity. But if that is the crime he committed, then the theory of retribution would entail an equal punishment... such as the killing of one of the man's children. Firstborn preferably.
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As a point of order, spirits of Ending-that-are-not-new-Beginnings shouldn't procreate, not without going against their nature. There was a transgression here of Zeqing's fundamental nature, born of the emotions she had begun to cultivate from the Qi shared by this guy. And well, considering he obviously had zero care for Hanyi beyond a means to the end of securing Zeqing's binding... Twisting his nature and forcing him to take responsibility seems like a fitting punishment.
 
TehChron said:
Yeah, but you framing this stuff in a pure vacuum is a false pretense.

From the very start, the context of this question was always going to be "Was the path to this point justifiable?", rather than an abstract "Should this state of affairs continue?" or something else.

Essentially, did Zeqing have a right to inflict this punishment? I believe that she did, both under the theory of consequences and the fundamental right of self defense inherent to sapient beings.
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I don't understand how justifiable self-defence enters the equation. The man stopped being a threat to Zeqing a very long time ago, and it clearly didn't make her reconsider her stance on torturing and enslaving him.
 
[X] She could, the man had made his choices and here they led. She only worried that holding on to him like this hurt Zeqing and Hanyi.

If the guy could go on suffering as an ice puppet corpse without hurting Hanyi and or Zeqing I'd be fine with it. Those who say that Zeqing would have only been bound for the guy's lifetime, who's to say that he wouldn't have handed down her binding to the children he would have had with his planned human wife?
 
[X] She could, the man had made his choices and here they led. She only worried that holding on to him like this hurt Zeqing and Hanyi.
 
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.

Basically because ultimately I want to have a Ling Qi that believes that crimes shouldn't be an eye for an eye. Maybe she won't be able to go so far as going on a rehabilitation is the important part of justice, but at least she doesn't need to think that just because you are dealing with a monstrous man you need to have a monstrous punishment.
 
[X] No, a death could be deserved, but not this torment. This shouldn't go on, it was harmful to Zeqing and Hanyi as well.

TehChron said:
Essentially, did Zeqing have a right to inflict this punishment? I believe that she did, both under the theory of consequences and the fundamental right of self defense inherent to sapient beings.
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Self-defense could justify killing him, not everything else.

And consequences? That he brought this on himself? Sure, he did. But, well, to take another situation Harry's actions in philosopher's stone were monumentally ill-advised and stupid. If Voldemort had killed him it would be an expected result of an 11 year old trying to stop a dark wizard and one could readily argue that he brought that on himself.

But that wouldn't justify Voldemort killing him.
 
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