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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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This community has a pretty strong inclination towards cooperation that I treasure, but sometimes it can lead to situations where a competing plan doesn't seem like a super viable option. For instance in this situation (that is: Goldfish making his own path with blackjack and hookers) Goldfish and Talon would be competing for the "not Snowfire's plan" section of the vote, potentially splitting the vote.
 
Crake said:
...maybe leave it up to a vote or talk about it in PM? I feel a bit weird playing parallel to you did to me last week or so ago, but you've both expressed more than once the gist of why you're against the builds suggested, so now everyone else isn't making any decision uninformed, and you're just shooting harsh language around, which as has been pointed out to me repeatedly, is making it difficult for some people to discern where the vehemence is being directed.
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I don't do personal insults, but I never shy from expressing my opinion, either. In this case, my opinion is that Inspired Spell is vastly superior to Recalled Blessing. It just so happens that my opinion is also a blatant fact this time.

We can leave it up to a vote.
ryuan said:
Maybe make your own mythic path? I'm not saying it as an affront, but rather that your tastes are different enough from each other that making your own plan sounds better, which then we would vote for later.
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I've already expressed my opinion that I think a regular Archmage path would be fine for Lya, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus among the rest of the thread. I'll support @Snowfire's proposed path, however, so long as it doesn't try to stick Lya with an arguably inferior ability because "reasons".
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Ah well, either there'll be a vote or Snowfire will homebrew something vastly more powerful and it'll win.
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Thing here is, unless you're customizing the path to be specifically less powerful than the default feats from Pathfinder (why would you do this??) the regular abiliites already scale weirdly at high levels. The system is obviously not the perfect stand-in for Epic levels, and the abilities gained from even Tier 1 at Level 17 are vastly more powerful than the transition from 16-17, and comparable to the one from 17-18.

So far I think the bulk of what Snowfire has done for the keystone features of the Paths is to introduce one mechanical fun-toy, and then one thing that works on a fluff level (meaning doesn't make you stronger in combat, but does make you stronger outside of it).

Which is totally fair to argue you should only be one or the other. Not gonna contest that idea.
 
My main objection to Snowfire's stuff? It's OP. For example, our "Cannot die ever until our Empire is dust and our Clerics are all dead" feature is replacing choices like "Plane Shift 2/day" or "Gain 4 first-level divine spells"
Yeah.
Now it's really cool and quite fluffy for Viserys. But should we really make every single Companion quite that OP, before counting in gear? On top of crazy stuff like Lya's PrC capstone? I'm unconvinced.
To make matters worse, the Archmage path feels like it was written for Lya specifically. No customization needed!
 
I just found the Ascendant Class for Viserys. It is beautiful. He is about to become the God-Emperor of Man! We even have Allspeak
Two steel dragons and one living embodiment of his banner made of Valyrian Steel. Every mortal kingdom has just fallen, they just don't know it yet.

 
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@Goldfish: Wild Arcana feels like more Draconic Wishcraft. We've been doing that for ages, it's part of Viserys.
But Lya? Lya learns and prepares spells. It's been a huge part of her character arc since the very beginning! Therefore, I'm unhappy with the idea of just giving her access to every single Wizard and Divine spell all at once.

People, is this really so insane? I don't feel like an arbitrary contrarian here.
 
I hate the Nerfbat taken to the class, but you can't have everything.

TalonofAnathrax said:
@Goldfish: Wild Arcana feels like more Draconic Wishcraft. We've been doing that for ages, it's part of Viserys.
But Lya? Lya learns and prepares spells. It's been a huge part of her character arc since the very beginning! Therefore, I'm unhappy with the idea of just giving her access to every single Wizard and Divine spell all at once.

People, is this really so insane? I don't feel like an arbitrary contrarian here.
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We are about to challenge the Dread Old Ones and the Infernal Gods. We need every edge we can get. The more priests to our glory we have, the more firepower and insurance we have for our existence never having to end. We still have Tiamat and Lloth to devour. Well, we need to kill their worshippers first then we devour them.

As to the Archmage it reads closer to how the class was originally before it was rewritten and balanced for gaming. I say again to hell with Nerfing shit!
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
@Goldfish: Wild Arcana feels like more Draconic Wishcraft. We've been doing that for ages, it's part of Viserys.
But Lya? Lya learns and prepares spells. It's been a huge part of her character arc since the very beginning! Therefore, I'm unhappy with the idea of just giving her access to every single Wizard and Divine spell all at once.

People, is this really so insane? I don't feel like an arbitrary contrarian here.
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I can compromise on her not taking Wild Arcana in favor of Arcane Surge. It annoys me, but not enough to stop me in my tracks. Arcane Surge is at least good.

Doing the same thing to Inspired spell, however, is unacceptable. Recalled Blessing is just bad and you know it. Your argument against it isn't much different than someone arguing against Perfect Preparation because "Wizards are supposed to use spellbooks!".
 
Goldfish said:
I can compromise on her not taking Wild Arcana in favor of Arcane Surge. It annoys me, but not enough to stop me in my tracks. Arcane Surge is at least good.

Doing the same thing to Inspired spell, however, is unacceptable. Recalled Blessing is just bad and you know it. Your argument against it isn't much different than someone arguing against Perfect Preparation because "Wizards are supposed to use spellbooks!".
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No change please. I like it how it is right now.
 
Goldfish said:
I can compromise on her not taking Wild Arcana in favor of Arcane Surge. It annoys me, but not enough to stop me in my tracks. Arcane Surge is at least good.

Doing the same thing to Inspired spell, however, is unacceptable. Recalled Blessing is just bad and you know it. Your argument against it isn't much different than someone arguing against Perfect Preparation because "Wizards are supposed to use spellbooks!".
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1. Recalled Blessing also has the "roll twice to save", which is great. There are good divine SoDs out there!
2. It would be incoherent to take Arcane Surge and Inspired Spell. The same reasoning applies to both.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
@Goldfish: Wild Arcana feels like more Draconic Wishcraft. We've been doing that for ages, it's part of Viserys.
But Lya? Lya learns and prepares spells. It's been a huge part of her character arc since the very beginning! Therefore, I'm unhappy with the idea of just giving her access to every single Wizard and Divine spell all at once.

People, is this really so insane? I don't feel like an arbitrary contrarian here.
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I think part of the issue is that while I can totally understand your argument re: coherent theming, and I even agree with it for the most part, people's perception of it is colored by the fact that what you consider coherent theming happens to also be markedly less powerful. The additional context of you being against Snowfire's options for being too OP can make that coherence argument seem like it's the secondary one to a certain extent.
 
Here's what I want Lya's Mythic ability selection to look like, with compromises based on @TalonofAnathrax's implacable need to limit Lya and the desire from so many folks for her to continue to be a crafter.

This isn't about fluff. It's about her being effective when we fight gods, demons, monsters, and whatever the fuck the Others are. No specially made paths, no additional fluff, etc. The Archmage is already perfect for Lya.

Formatting changes include shrinking down automatic abilities gained as part of progressing through Mythic tiers, highlighting Mythic abilities in blue, and Mythic feats in red. This hopefully makes it easier to see what actual choices there are.
  1. Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. If the spell requires a saving throw, any non-mythic creatures affected by the spell roll twice and take the lower result. If you must attempt a caster level check for the spell to overcome a creature's spell resistance, you can roll your caster level check twice (adding your tier to each) and take the higher result. You can't add a metamagic feat to a spell you cast using this ability.
    • Mythic Feat: Dual Path (Hierophant)
    • Inspired Spell (Su): You can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell, treating your caster level as 2 levels higher. This spell must be on your divine spell list (or your domain or mystery spell list) and must be of a spell level that you can cast using that divine spellcasting class. If you are a spontaneous spellcaster, you don't need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need to be on your list of spells known. Using this ability does not expend a prepared spell or available spell slot. You can apply any metamagic feats you know to this spell, but its total spell slot level must be a slot level you can normally cast.
    • Crafting Mastery (Ex): You can craft any magic item as if you had the necessary item creation feats. If you actually have the item creation feat needed for a magic item you're crafting, whenever you attempt a skill check to create that item, roll twice and use the higher result, and you make twice as much progress on the item for any time spent. This ability does not reduce the item's cost or any other requirements.
    • Hard to Kill (Ex): Whenever you're below 0 hit points, you automatically stabilize without needing to attempt a Constitution check. If you have an ability that allows you to act while below 0 hit points, you still lose hit points for taking actions, as specified by that ability. Bleed damage still causes you to lose hit points when below 0 hit points. In addition, you don't die until your total number of negative hit points is equal to or greater than double your Constitution score.
    • Surge (Su): You can call upon your mythic power to overcome difficult challenges. You can expend one use of mythic power to increase any d20 roll you just made by rolling 1d6 and adding it to the result. Using this ability is an immediate action taken after the result of the original roll is revealed. This can change the outcome of the roll. The bonus die gained by using this ability increases to 1d8 at 4th tier, 1d10 at 7th tier, and 1d12 at 10th tier.
    • 3+ 2*Tier uses of Mythic Power per day
  2. Mythic Spellcasting (Ex): You can learn a number of mythic spells equal to your tier and can expend mythic power when casting them to enhance the results. To select a mythic spell, you must be able to cast the non-mythic version or have it on your list of spells known. Every time you gain a new tier, you can select an additional mythic spell. You can take this ability up to three times. Each additional time you take it, you can select an additional number of spells equal to your tier and you gain one additional mythic spell whenever you gain a tier.
    • Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, as a free action on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power to take an additional standard action during that turn. This additional standard action can't be used to cast a spell. You can't gain an extra action in this way more than once per round.
    • +2 Int
  3. Competent Caster (Ex): You automatically succeed at concentration checks to cast arcane spells. This ability doesn't apply to spells of the highest spell level you can cast.
    • Recuperation (Ex): At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.
    • Mythic Feat: Mythic Craft Wondrous Item
  4. Eldritch Breach (Su): You are adept at breaching magical defenses and overcoming resistance to your magic. When attempting a caster level check to dispel an effect, overcome spell resistance, or otherwise determine whether your magic affects a target (such as with knock or neutralize poison), roll twice and take the higher result.
    • Surge bonus increases to +1d8
    • +2 Int
  5. Flexible Counterspell (Su): Your mythic power enhances your ability to counter spells. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to attempt to counter a spell. Upon using this ability, you must identify the spell with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). If you correctly identify the spell, you can expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the spell being cast to counter the spell.
    • Mythic Saving Throws (Ex): At 5th tier, whenever you succeed at a saving throw against a spell or special ability, you suffer no effects as long as that ability didn't come from a mythic source (such as a creature with a mythic tier or mythic ranks). If you fail a saving throw that results from a mythic source, you take the full effects as normal.
    • Mythic Feat: Mythic Crafter
  6. Channel Power (Su): You gain the ability to channel raw arcane power into a spell. You can also expend one use of mythic power when casting an arcane spell to increase its damage by 50%. If the spell has a duration greater than 1 round, the duration doubles. Any saves required by the spell take a –4 penalty, although for mythic creatures, this penalty is reduced to –2. This spell ignores any spell resistance the targets have, although targets immune to the spell or to magic still retain that protection.
    • Force of Will (Ex): At 6th tier, you can exert your will to force events to unfold as you would like. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to reroll a d20 roll you just made, or force any non-mythic creature to reroll a d20 roll it just made. You can use this ability after the results are revealed. Whoever rerolls a roll must take the result of the second roll, even if it is lower.
    • +2 Int
  7. Enduring Blessing (Su): Whenever you cast a spell with a duration of 10 minutes per level or longer upon one willing target, you can change that spell's duration to 24 hours. If the spell has other duration conditions, those still apply (for example, the duration of stoneskin changes to 24 hours or until discharged). A creature can't be subject to more than one spell affected by this ability at a time; if another is cast upon the creature, the first one ends. You can select this ability a second time at 6th tier or higher. The second time you select it, you can use it on spells with a duration of 1 minute per level or longer.
  8. Enduring Blessing (Su): Whenever you cast a spell with a duration of 10 minutes per level or longer upon one willing target, you can change that spell's duration to 24 hours. If the spell has other duration conditions, those still apply (for example, the duration of stoneskin changes to 24 hours or until discharged). A creature can't be subject to more than one spell affected by this ability at a time; if another is cast upon the creature, the first one ends. You can select this ability a second time at 6th tier or higher. The second time you select it, you can use it on spells with a duration of 1 minute per level or longer.
    • Unstoppable (Ex): At 8th tier, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to immediately end any one of the following conditions currently affecting you: bleed, blind, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, staggered, or stunned. All other conditions and effects remain, even those resulting from the same spell or effect that caused the selected condition. You can use this ability at the start of your turn even if a condition would prevent you from acting.
    • +2 Int
  9. Spell Sieve (Sp): If you successfully counterspell an arcane spell that is on your spell list and of a level you can cast, you can absorb the countered spell's power and use it for your own purposes. On your next turn, you can cast that spell as a spell-like ability using your arcane spellcaster level as the caster level.
    • Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.
    • Mythic Feat: A Mythic Crafting Feat (TBD)
  10. True Archmage (Ex): At 10th tier, whenever you cast an arcane spell that targets one or more non-mythic creatures, each of those creatures must roll any saving throws against the spell twice and take the lower result. You gain spell resistance equal to 15 + your highest arcane caster level, but only against arcane spells. Once per round when your spell resistance protects you from a spell cast by an enemy mythic creature, you regain one use of mythic power.
    • Throw Spell (Su): When casting a melee touch spell, you can expend one use of mythic power to throw that spell as a ranged touch attack. The range of this thrown spell is 10 feet per tier. If the spell allows you to make multiple melee touch attacks, you may make any number of the attacks as melee touch attacks and throw the rest as you see fit.
    • Legendary Hero (Su): At 10th tier, you have reached the height of mortal power. You regain uses of your mythic power at the rate of one use per hour, in addition to completely refreshing your uses each day.
    • +2 Int
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TalonofAnathrax said:
My main objection to Snowfire's stuff? It's OP. For example, our "Cannot die ever until our Empire is dust and our Clerics are all dead" feature is replacing choices like "Plane Shift 2/day" or "Gain 4 first-level divine spells"
Yeah.
Now it's really cool and quite fluffy for Viserys. But should we really make every single Companion quite that OP, before counting in gear? On top of crazy stuff like Lya's PrC capstone? I'm unconvinced.
To make matters worse, the Archmage path feels like it was written for Lya specifically. No customization needed!
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Also this is inaccurate, as the tier just confers the Longevity Mythic Ability, and it's conditional Longevity at that, making it arguably less powerful. The part of our Path, which all Mythic Heroes get by default, Immortality, just makes your death conditional based on someone having the right McGuffin to do the job. No shattering of world-spanning nations necessary.

Again, as has been pointed out, arguments like these make your suggestion of coherent theming ring as considerably secondary in your concerns for building, which makes anyone who really likes mechanical gains leery of anything you might propose.
 
For myself I'll probably go for Snowfire's options because 1. I like the special snowflake fluff and 2. At the end of the day, this is high level 3.5/pathfinder. Barring Limburger tier cheese all this stuff gives me basically the same reaction.
 
It's true, you have to go out of your way to do something extremely silly before cries of "OP!" actually become effective to those sitting at such a table.
 
@Goldfish, Spell Sieve is a trap option. A great many spells are very useful against players, but situationally terrible against enemies. I think that Spell Sieve looks nice, but is actually subpar compared to other, better choices (like Touch spells at range !).

And if you're taking Inspired Spell, you may as well take Wild Arcana with it too. Trying to compromise here doesn't make much sense. Unless you compromise by making Wild Arcana a swift action, but by limiting it to spells known. That would be nice, but would fail the "no homebrew" objective.
Of course, I think that suddenly making Lya a mighty spontaneous spellcaster doesn't make much sense, but what have you.

People, I'm resigned to the OP-ness of Mythic. I'm not on some crusade to "gimp" our strongest PC (yes, Lya's Capstone is definitely stronger than Visery's, especially if she crafts her own sweet artefact gear in the near future). No, I just feel a little uncomfortable with pushing Lya into a full crafter role (some proposals stank of that, making me nervous about the future) or making her a sorcerer with all spells known.

Crake said:
Also this is inaccurate, as the tier just confers the Longevity Mythic Ability, and it's conditional Longevity at that, making it arguably less powerful. The part of our Path, which all Mythic Heroes get by default, Immortality, just makes your death conditional based on someone having the right McGuffin to do the job. No shattering of world-spanning nations necessary.

Again, as has been pointed out, arguments like these make your suggestion of coherent theming ring as considerably secondary in your concerns for building, which makes anyone who really likes mechanical gains leery of anything you might propose.
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:facepalm:
I can't believe I hadn't realized that!

Well then, here's another nitpick about Snowfire's stuff: We get to bestow cleric spells of up to the 9th circle without taking the relevant Mythic Path Ability 3 times? Damn, that's a nice upgrade. I guess that having to wait for our Mythic Rank to rise is a downgrade in the short-term, but an advantage in the long-term?
Ah well, it's mostly fluff anyway.

Still, overall I am very happy with Viserys' Ascendant path. I'm just nitpicking here. Please tell me if I've misunderstood how that works too.
 
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Has Viserys ever done the thing Tywin does with making people wait while doing paperwork?

....I ask random questions a lot....
 
mrsean22 said:
Has Viserys ever done the thing Tywin does with making people wait while doing paperwork?

....I ask random questions a lot....
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No, because we're better organized than him.

Scheduling a meeting while in the middle of signing official documents in triplicate? For a petty power play?

That shit's in the "out" box piled three feet high an hour before tea time.

TL;DR Tywin's an ass, Viserys isn't.
 
mrsean22 said:
Has Viserys ever done the thing Tywin does with making people wait while doing paperwork?

....I ask random questions a lot....
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I'm sure several would be courtiers have been steered away from Viserys on grounds that were swamped with paperwork at the moment, but I cannot recall us ever doing the extraordinarily petty 'summon someone to talk with you then make them sit and watch you finish a letter to flex about how Important you are' that Tywin loves so much. It's a waste of time and we are much cleverer when we decide to be petty.
 
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