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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Personally, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she was going for the princess with fairy help thing here. Especially since she knew that he was on his deathbed and thus his heirs would have contested a marriage anyway, if we hadn't healed him, so gold digging can't have been her only reasoning.

As it stand, my read is that she went to the Fey to get a CHA boost to confess to her crush before he bought the farm.
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If that was the case, that actually makes me sympathetic. It wouldn't sway my mind from ruling as you have suggested, but I obviously wouldn't think anything less of her, or connive to see her imprisoned or otherwise punished.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I act differently around a date than around anyone else though. "How you act" changes all the time: it's called free will.
I also act more confident when I feel beautiful and charismatic, and of course if I were seducing someone I would be doing all I could to appear that way.
Either he wasn't of sound mind, in which case she was preying on the vulnerable and that's a crime. Or he was of sound mind, in which case it was his responsibility not to fall for this.
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What she did was basically get acting and seducing lessons. Skills we know can be learned and trained (hello courtesans).

The issue is that she forgot how to do that stuff afterward.

Which is a consequence of magics jankyness as much as anything else.

I wonder if a luck type bonus would have made things turn out differently. Ooh! what about an insight bonus!

Or divine bonus.

If a god literally blesses your romance do you break up after the blessing wears off?:thonk:
 
zxzx24 said:
What she did was basically get acting and seducing lessons. Skills we know can be learned and trained (hello courtesans).

The issue is that she forgot how to do that stuff afterward.

Which is a consequence of magics jankyness as much as anything else.

I wonder if a luck type bonus would have made things turn out differently. Ooh! what about an insight bonus!

Or divine bonus.

If a god literally blesses your romance do you break up after the blessing wears off?:thonk:
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A god would have been bound to make things more permanent. Fey are mercurial, so are more willing to quibble over the details so long as your offerings entice them.
 
I haven't been able to participate much in this discussion due to being stuck working at work, but I do have time to mention this;

For the dumbass that poked the poisonous murderlizard, the woman w likely wasn't just benefiting from a +6 Charima boost, which is significant on it's own. She was also likely wearing high quality, expertly applied makeup, a high quality, attractive dress or equivalent clothing, and probably a pleasing scent of some sort. At the same time, the dumbass was on his deathbed, maimed beyond the point of non-magical recovery, perhaps suffering from the after effects of poison, while running a near fatal fever.

All in all, he was likely as debuffed as she was buffed. Now that shouldn't be illegal, because she didn't set out to harm him and she only had magic performed upon herself, and nothing she did afterward was illegal either, as far as we know.

But I would still grant the annulment. Choosing not to sets a bad precedent that we may well regret.
 
Crake said:
Exactly, this, the legal precedent will be very useful, largely outweighing any victimization of either party here, who I feel neither side is better or worse off than they were before the annexation of Myr than they would be if they hadn't married.

Edit: Yes, I would say "better", too, seeing as how if we ruled the man had to stay married to the woman, that is likely to be a very dangerous situation to be in for one or both parties, leading to yet more impinging upon our time. Possibly because of a murder and the potential controversy following it due to the two being linked to a case we presided over.
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Except the woman will be very much worse off, an annulment is the kind of thing, that in Westeros if your daughters marriage got annulled, most noble families would send her to be a Septa, and a decent chunk would send her to the Silent Sisters, to fully wipe the shame away.

At the very minimum it get you a reputation as a slut, because the annulment mean that in the eyes of the law, you weren't married when you had sex with your ex-husband, if you have any children with him they're now bastards, and in 9 times out of 10 it gets you much further bad reputation, as you must have done something seriously bad, for the marriage to not merely be ended, but declared to never have existed.

If you are divorced, even if it's a divorce that's hugely in favor of him, then officially you were legally married at some point, which make the reputation hit you take much less, if it's annulled however, then it officially never happened, but the stuff you did while married still did, meaning you are now a slut who had sex before marriage, as well as so bad the government decided to say your marriage was illegal, and so didn't count.
 
People, we aren't a nanny state. Why are we helping people in their dating lives? If they exercise basic caution, this kind of issue won't come up.
Seriously: if he hadn't married her so quickly the effect would have worn off while they dated and everything would have been fine!
This is a personal issue, that individuals should handle between themselves. The government has neither the time, manpower or need to be handling these situations, especially our judiciary.

Let's just put out a warning and call it a day.

TotallyNotEvil said:
She likely went from "fairer side of average" to "one of the most enthralling women in the world".

Charisma encompasses more than just plain looks.

Yeah, but see above.

A jump of six points in charisma... is the farthest thing from trivial.

In the end, a clean break but no crime sounds like the best solution, with clear law being put in place to prevent this.

A divorce that's an annulment in all but name would do it, too. Don't know if Tarrangar has the right of it just yet.
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6 points of Charisma is a +3 bonus to social skills. You can get a +2 bonus with Masterwork Makeup. Enough said.
I don't consider this a massive change.

Crake said:
I actually understand and see this as valid, but we would more or less effectively be leveraging this ruling to help us deal with future situations where it was blatantly fraud or otherwise malicious intent involved in the matter. Which will no doubt happen, absolutely for sure.
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In future situations, we'll be making different rulings. Or are you planning on losing power soon?

zxzx24 said:
What she did was basically get acting and seducing lessons. Skills we know can be learned and trained (hello courtesans).

The issue is that she forgot how to do that stuff afterward.

Which is a consequence of magics jankyness as much as anything else.

I wonder if a luck type bonus would have made things turn out differently. Ooh! what about an insight bonus!

Or divine bonus.

If a god literally blesses your romance do you break up after the blessing wears off?:thonk:
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Good question.
Again, I strongly suggest people exercise basic caution and don't marry strangers.
 
OK let's see.

Vote count
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jan 17, 2019 at 3:43 PM, finished with 196 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] First Case: The lady has clear and legal right to the inheritance and thus the estate. However, in recognition of the steward cooperating with the Legion and treating his slaves well while effectively administrating the estate independently for decades, we would request the lady to give him the chance to buy the property from her at a reasonable price, the Imperial Administration being able to offer a estimate for the market value of the estate. If he is willing to do this, the Iron Bank will certainly be willing to offer him a loan at a reasonable rate and if not, you have many positions in the realm where a man of his skill would be greatly appreciated. This does not in any way or form impact the noble titles of the widow or grant such to the steward. This is merely a property transaction.
    [X] Second Case:
    -[X] On magic: It is self-evident that Glyllo was not bespelled as he claims, thus he has no right to an annulment on that basis. The use of magic to improve the self is inherently no reprehensible act, not dissimilar form buying fancy clothing, using make-up or dying your hair. All of these things also change the way a person appears to others, yet no one would ask for an annulment for discovering a wrinkle or mole on his bride.
    -[X] Ruling: While the bride had done nothing illegal and we see no hard evidence of malicious intent, the marriage was established with him not being fully aware of the circumstances. As Glyllo objects to it after learning of the truth, an annulment is granted.
    -[X] For the future: The law will be amended so that before a marriage, both partners have to state all permanent or temporary magical effects they possess. Failure to do so is a valid reason for an annulment, though not in of itself a crime. It can be however used as evidence to prove malicious intent and fraud, if other evidence of such is present.
    [X] Septon: "I take it then that you do not agree with the High Septon, for he has crowned the Ursuper in the name of your gods. I have heard from many Septons many different things. Some decry all magic as fiendish work, others even going so far as wishing to bring back the Faith Militant and seeking to put a High Septon on the Iron Throne to spreed the faith with the blade. Before I answer your question Septon, answer mine. What is it that you believe?"
    [X] Side with the lady, the law must be upheld not only for principle but because the decision will further reassure the remaining aristocracy of the Three Daughters
    [X] Find in favor of lady Nesora, she was legally wed and therefore the arrangement can only be settled with divorce
    [X] Side with the lady, the law must be upheld not only for principle but because the decision will further reassure the remaining aristocracy of the Three Daughters
    -[X] However, the steward has shown his ability through his management of the estate. See if you have a position in mind which could use someone of his caliber, and which he would also be willing to accept.
    [X] First Case: The lady has clear and legal right to the inheritance and thus the estate. However, the steward made a good case for his work and that the estate was gravely neglected by previous owners, so he will receive the right to buy the estate from her at the market value, as determined by the office of taxation of the Imperial Administration. If he is willing to do this, the Iron Bank will certainly be willing to offer him a loan at a reasonable rate and if not, you have many positions in the realm where a man of his skill would be greatly appreciated. This does not in any way or form impact the noble titles of the widow or grant such to the steward. This is merely a property transaction.
    [X] Find in favor of lady Nesora, she was legally wed and therefore the arrangement can only be settled with divorce
    [X] Septon: "I take it then that you do not agree with the High Septon, for he has crowned the Ursuper in the name of your gods. I have heard from many Septons many different things. Some decry all magic as fiendish work, others even going so far as wishing to bring back the Faith Militant and seeking to put a High Septon on the Iron Throne to spreed the faith with the blade. Before I answer your question Septon, answer mine. What is it that you believe?"
    [X] First Case: The lady has clear and legal right to the inheritance and thus the estate. However, in recognition of the steward cooperating with the Legion and treating his slaves well while effectively administrating the estate independently for decades, we would request the lady to give him the chance to buy the property from her at a reasonable price, the Imperial Administration being able to offer a estimate for the market value of the estate. If he is willing to do this, the Iron Bank will certainly be willing to offer him a loan at a reasonable rate and if not, you have many positions in the realm where a man of his skill would be greatly appreciated. This does not in any way or form impact the noble titles of the widow or grant such to the steward. This is merely a property transaction.
    [X] Second Case:
    -[X] On magic: It is self-evident that Glyllo was not bespelled as he claims, thus he has no right to an annulment on that basis. The use of magic to improve the self is inherently no reprehensible act, not dissimilar form buying fancy clothing, using make-up or dying your hair. All of these things also change the way a person appears to others, yet no one would ask for an annulment for discovering a wrinkle or mole on his bride.
    -[X] For the future: The law will be amended so that before a marriage, both partners have to state all permanent or temporary magical effects they possess. Failure to do so is a valid reason for an annulment, though not in of itself a crime. It can be however used as evidence to prove malicious intent and fraud, if other evidence of such is present.
    [X] Septon: "I take it then that you do not agree with the High Septon, for he has crowned the Ursuper in the name of your gods. I have heard from many Septons many different things. Some decry all magic as fiendish work, others even going so far as wishing to bring back the Faith Militant and seeking to put a High Septon on the Iron Throne to spreed the faith with the blade. Before I answer your question Septon, answer mine. What is it that you believe?"
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Goldfish said:
I haven't been able to participate much in this discussion due to being stuck working at work, but I do have time to mention this;

For the dumbass that poked the poisonous murderlizard, the woman w likely wasn't just benefiting from a +6 Charima boost, which is significant on it's own. She was also likely wearing high quality, expertly applied makeup, a high quality, attractive dress or equivalent clothing, and probably a pleasing scent of some sort. At the same time, the dumbass was on his deathbed, maimed beyond the point of non-magical recovery, perhaps suffering from the after effects of poison, while running a near fatal fever.

All in all, he was likely as debuffed as she was buffed. Now that shouldn't be illegal, because she didn't set out to harm him and she only had magic performed upon herself, and nothing she did afterward was illegal either, as far as we know.

But I would still grant the annulment. Choosing not to sets a bad precedent that we may well regret.
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Again: these conditions lasted for a while, but then he healed. And he then immediately jumped into marrying her. If he'd gotten to know her a little first and given himself a minute to think without being super debuffed, then they'd have dated while they were both getting circumstance bonuses from gear, situation, ect. And then the difference would have been far smaller!
Instead he jumped the gun like a dumbass and paid the consequences.
 
Goldfish said:
I haven't been able to participate much in this discussion due to being stuck working at work, but I do have time to mention this;

For the dumbass that poked the poisonous murderlizard, the woman w likely wasn't just benefiting from a +6 Charima boost, which is significant on it's own. She was also likely wearing high quality, expertly applied makeup, a high quality, attractive dress or equivalent clothing, and probably a pleasing scent of some sort. At the same time, the dumbass was on his deathbed, maimed beyond the point of non-magical recovery, perhaps suffering from the after effects of poison, while running a near fatal fever.

All in all, he was likely as debuffed as she was buffed. Now that shouldn't be illegal, because she didn't set out to harm him and she only had magic performed upon herself, and nothing she did afterward was illegal either, as far as we know.

But I would still grant the annulment. Choosing not to sets a bad precedent that we may well regret.
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It's a much better idea to close the hole going forward, with a new law that in the future you have to tell your spouse about such enhancements before getting married, but merely grant him favorable terms on a divorce, if we downright annul it, then we are labelling her a fraud, that along with the slut reputation, an annulment always get women in medieval times, will destroy her socially, better to just say we will support a divorce, and change the law so in the future such blessing must be made known.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
People, we aren't a nanny state. Why are we helping people in their dating lives? If they exercise basic caution, this kind of issue won't come up.
Seriously: if he hadn't married her so quickly the effect would have worn off while they dated and everything would have been fine!
This is a personal issue, that individuals should handle between themselves. The government has neither the time, manpower or need to be handling these situations, especially our judiciary.

Let's just put out a warning and call it a day.
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This isn't about handling anything here. The issue cropping up would be exceedingly rare, but it's a clean way for annulment in those cases.

I mainly want to have a proofing mechanism against using Potions of Glibness to be used for marriage fraud, without having to do stupid stuff like outlawing those.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
People, we aren't a nanny state. Why are we helping people in their dating lives? If they exercise basic caution, this kind of issue won't come up.
Seriously: if he hadn't married her so quickly the effect would have worn off while they dated and everything would have been fine!
This is a personal issue, that individuals should handle between themselves. The government has neither the time, manpower or need to be handling these situations, especially our judiciary.

Let's just put out a warning and call it a day.


6 points of Charisma is a +3 bonus to social skills. You can get a +2 bonus with Masterwork Makeup. Enough said.
I don't consider this a massive change.


In future situations, we'll be making different rulings. Or are you planning on losing power soon?


Good question.
Again, I strongly suggest people exercise basic caution and don't marry strangers.
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Look you said it first, but, if you're deciding on making a personal ruling on a per-situation basis due to personal inclination, you might as well make a ruling that benefits you personally. This Magister sided with us and helped smooth over the annexation of Myr as part of a clandestine deal, involving essentially saving his life for his political support.

This lady is a minor noble of no concern.

I know who I would rule in favor of. Fucking duh, right? Seems clear cut to me.
 
@Azel
Thanks for the changes, but I'll stick with the basic version.
No annulment here, he married her while of sound mind and healthy body, not on his deathbed, so there was absolutly no reason for haste for him.
His fault if he doesn't take time to get to know her and while +6 charisma might be a minor change in personality, such as in confidence, it's not a major one.
 
Azel said:
This isn't about handling anything here. The issue cropping up would be exceedingly rare, but it's a clean way for annulment in those cases.

I mainly want to have a proofing mechanism against using Potions of Glibness to be used for marriage fraud, without having to do stupid stuff like outlawing those.
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Speaking of, we still need to remember to buy Potions of Glibness in the Opaline Vault. I want to see Viserys with one of those bad boys.
 
Azel said:
This isn't about handling anything here. The issue cropping up would be exceedingly rare, but it's a clean way for annulment in those cases.

I mainly want to have a proofing mechanism against using Potions of Glibness to be used for marriage fraud, without having to do stupid stuff like outlawing those.
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Can you please remove annulling this marriage, and instead say we will support a divorce in this case? I don't want to ruin her life, because she made a poor bargain trying to get the fairytale princess ending.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK the above looks pretty definite and I'd like to move the updates along instead of doing another interlude so vote closed.
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We are still sort of debating the annulment, in that I think the annulment will destroy her reputation utterly making her a Pariah, and the issue was brought up recently enough we haven't debated it, so could you write the rest of the update, and wait with whether we grant an annulment or support a divorce, while we talk about that?
 
tarrangar said:
We are still sort of debating the annulment, in that I think the annulment will destroy her reputation utterly making her a Pariah, and the issue was brought up recently enough we haven't debated it, so could you write the rest of the update, and wait with whether we grant an annulment or support a divorce, while we talk about that?
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No. You are debating the annulment. I'm perfectly fine with it.
 
Duesal said:
Speaking of, we still need to remember to buy Potions of Glibness in the Opaline Vault. I want to see Viserys with one of those bad boys.
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Well, it would make believable lies be delivered perfectly, with absolutely no tells or micro-expressions for someone similarly, but not similarly enough, buffed to the gills and overskilled in socials to determine if what we're saying is false... but they could just do that bullshit "arguing in bad faith" maneuver which apparently invalidates compelling arguments or deceit and makes your attractive lies or less attractive by grounding their argument on the bare facts, rather than things you couldn't prove even if you wanted to.

...after recent events, I am much less trusting of the benefits of write-ins. Sometimes you just need to turn into a dragon and threaten homicide to get someone to agree with you.
 
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Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, what painted lizard did he get mauled by? Was it one of ours in the Menagerie? If it's not one of ours, can we buy it?
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He's one of those expeditionary captains, probably. They went on a trip to Sothoryos, and got killed the hell out of by dinosaurs in their efforts to strike it rich by ruin raiding? (And some did strike it rich, in fact).
 
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