This argument is pointless, because the outsiders who get to go on the missions to the prime material plane (the ones we meet) are all likely to be several thousand years old.
Yeah but their home planes don't present much opportunity for moral growth, the Abyss is literally all CE, Hell is all LE, Abaddon is all NE, they never have the opportunity to change there.

And that's what my argument is basically all about, I'm more okay with hiring fiends than excessively evil mortals, because being hired by us is the first chance a Fiend has to change, whereas mortals have got to pick who they wanted to be all their life.
 
[X] Agree that such a connection would be useful to you also

Hmm, this could prove interesting and amusing.
 
This line of reasoning is extremely flawed, as you are assuming that each human reaches a stage where they can make a informed decision about their personal morals. As it happens though, most people never reach this stage, in part because it is considered an unacceptable topic to talk about faith, morality and politics in most settings. The other issue is the good old nature vs. nuture debate and modern science has found strong evidence that the tendency of a persons morals is very much dictated by nature.

Furthermore, as you keep bringing up hypothetically sapient AIs, in my professional experience, any kind of thinking apparatus is very much constrained by it's underlying infrastructure, but a human-like intelligence would automatically imply the ability to reason and make judgments autonomously. Without this ability, you have no true sapience, just a clever Construct that is bound solely by it's premade, mental structure.

Therefore, you either assume that Outsiders start as sub-sapient, or they start on the same level as a human. The existence or lack of prior experience certainly has an impact on the complexity and nature of a beings thoughts, but the fundamental part is if it is capable of having them in the first place.
Tarrangar does have a point, it is entirely possible to train brains to be entirely unable to percieve certain fundamental concepts. e.g. cats were grown in an environment where there were no horizontal lines. These cats once freed of their harnesses were unable to perceive and learn to see horizontal lines and kept merilly walking into and ignoring any horizontal bars in their way (neuroscience x cat experiments require a tough stomach).
Edge detection is for all intents and purposes is a "low level" system / ie. close to the input organs, and so becomes "pretty hard" while growing up.
I can absolutely believe that something like this also happens to higher "social" layers, e.g. how sociopaths seem to experience compassion mostly intellectually or paranoids will interpret events into "they're out to get me".
Humanlike intellect implies, self-reflection and thinking about thinking, but that is not the same as "gut feeling"/the immediate quick response that one lives 99% of ones life by.


My preferred solution to subhuman morality is that angels/demons are not "manifestations of a mode of thought", but creatures made of superior good/evil materia instead of I dunno fire&earth or something.
In short angels/demons are not incapable of "thinking against their nature" it's just their innate course of action/gut reaction is more dominantly encoded than a mortals.
 
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Yeah but their home planes don't present much opportunity for moral growth, the Abyss is literally all CE, Hell is all LE, Abaddon is all NE, they never have the opportunity to change there.

And that's what my argument is basically all about, I'm more okay with hiring fiends than excessively evil mortals, because being hired by us is the first chance a Fiend has to change, whereas mortals have got to pick who they wanted to be all their life.
That doesn't work for Erinyes though.
They were not born as such. They made decisions that led to their Fall.

And partly because that is not the sort of thing one shares with outsiders," you guess. "If I may speculate further..." One elegantly hand waves you on and so you continue: "A mage who merely raises a single corpse to prove he can and then moves on to other things is beneath notice, one who prologues his life but spends all of it locked in his studies not caring for the world is worth barely more, but a plague of unlife you are honor-bound to end... which carries some rather unpleasant implications for the plans of this estate's erstwhile lord. Perhaps his workings threatened to stain the world in some indelible manner. Perhaps he was on the path to worldly power that would see his servants grow too numerous and too mighty."
Nice to know, but not enough to figure out the reaction to our own plans.
Need more info or murder next please.
 
Do you think we should reveal our identity? I don't think they're hostile, and they're not fanatics about death being infringed on like some of us feared, so I don't see the harm in it.
 
So, Caster, Saber, "Berserker", Assassin, "Rider", now all we need is for Viserys to qualify for Lancer to fill the normal rooster.

He might also qualify as Ruler and Avenger, and almost all of his incarnations can get an Alter version due to the disconnect between his real self and the wild rumors about him, together with the mishmash or of legends mixing him with Aerys and Raegar if it comes to it.
 
[X] Agree that such a connection would be useful to you also

@DragonParadox, has Relath bought himself any more magic items? He had ample opportunity during his last visit to the Plane of Water.
 
He has, but I still need to think about what thy are. I'll cover that in the morning to I don't forget.
Alright. One of the obvious pieces of gear he needs is a Ring of Untarnished Glory since he's pursuing the path of the Sorcerer.

Also, he does know that he can poke at us for gear, right? We're happy to equip our vassal so long as we can proceed to use him to kill things.
 
@Azel think about how tasty the reveal will be.

So, Caster, Saber, "Berserker", Assassin, "Rider", now all we need is for Viserys to qualify for Lancer to fill the normal rooster.

He might also qualify as Ruler and Avenger, and almost all of his incarnations can get an Alter version due to the disconnect between his real self and the wild rumors about him, together with the mishmash or of legends mixing him with Aerys and Raegar if it comes to it.
Lancer would be him as the chosen of the old God's probably. Channeling Vladimir with weirwood roots and branches.

How would we be rider?
 
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