Uhm... no? This has nothing to do with "out of sight", but simply that I want him to rule people he isn't dismissing as gnats while asking for control over them.

And frankly, we do want some PoF holdings, but don't have the time to actually carve out a realm there. So this gets everyone most of what they want.
It very much reads like you are dismissing him.

He isn't your average red Dragon, y'know. If Relath can be successful as a ruler, the infinitely more tempered Amrelath certainly could do at least as well.

Not to mention calling a powerful Dragon to fight on our side is super handy, and an enormously isolated 'province' that's a exile in all but name will just put him far away.

Not to mention it more or less impeDes him from integrating in the wilder realm.
 
We have literal devils, and a half demon, and feys, in our employ, but you don't trust someone that has been as punished and chastised as Amrelath to be capable of at least enlightened self interest?

He approached us.

I'm not saying we give him the Red Keep. I'm voting to say "if I think you can do it, I will allow it", and that's years from now at least part my vote.
 
[X] Azel
I'm fully voting for Azel because I think Amy will enjoy some good ol' fashioned murder-hobo time in the POF. Dude must have years of frustration to work out, let him do so while making life worse for our extra-planar enemies.
 
I agree with Azel that there's no reason to assume that Amrelath is CE other than the fact that he is a Red Dragon. Well, Viserys is one too, that mean we should drop the Law schtick and go wild? :p

Amrelath has spent millennia as a dracolich, that's bound to make a mess of one's priorities.

As for the vote, I'm conflicted. It'd be nice if he went to carve out a place for himself(and for us) in the PoF, but I agree with TNE too. Honestly, Viserys has some bullshit Diploma(n)cy, if he can't convince Amrelath that going to the PoF was his own idea and that's it's the best idea since sliced bread, I'll be genuinely surprised... or impressed... or disappointed. All three, probably.
 
It very much reads like you are dismissing him.

He isn't your average red Dragon, y'know. If Relath can be successful as a ruler, the infinitely more tempered Amrelath certainly could do at least as well.

Not to mention calling a powerful Dragon to fight on our side is super handy, and an enormously isolated 'province' that's a exile in all but name will just put him far away.

Not to mention it more or less impeDes him from integrating in the wilder realm.
Amrelath is an ornery bastard that sat in a tower-wall for a few millennia. He was prissy about the fact that the book we had him write would be read by regular humans, considering them unworthy. Just now, he called them mayflies.

He very much is not someone we should put in charge of humans since that will end with a repeat of what removed the last batch of dragon rulers. He is ill-suited to rule monkeys and that is what I'm trying to explain to him. Relath actual took human wives, showing a certain attachment to his monkeys, but Amrelath can't be arsed to talk to anyone not capable of taking his full fear-aura.

You are trying to portray him as something he simply isn't. Sociable.

And as for the PoF being isolated, do you truly think I don't have already a drawer full of plans to integrate that bit into our realm just as tightly as anything on the PoB?
 
We have literal devils, and a half demon, and feys, in our employ, but you don't trust someone that has been as punished and chastised as Amrelath to be capable of at least enlightened self interest?

He approached us.

I'm not saying we give him the Red Keep. I'm voting to say "if I think you can do it, I will allow it", and that's years from now at least part my vote.
What are you even arguing against? Or for, for that matter? :jackiechan:

He was stuck into that tower for millennia with barely any sensory input or any kind of social contact. That he isn't a raving lunatic from the isolation alone is rather impressive, but how you try to shoehorn this into any kind of advantage for him is beyond me.

This is nothing about trust, but about the need to get him outside of a bit and interact with people he actually accepts as people instead of vermin before putting him in charge of anything bigger then a lemonade stand.
 
:facepalm:

Don't get salty when people automatically like Angels. You guys are doing exactly the same to Amrelath.

Look at what was actually said: he wants to serve under us, in our empire.

You guys are telling him you will allow him the honor of carving a realm in the PoF in our name.

That's all but spitting on his offer.

Look at Relath, once the pecking order is properly established, it's been smooth sailing.

So you guys are voting to throw away powerful, valuable vassal.

Because you don't trust the single most punished Dragon alive to not be a raging asshole, when even as a enternally-tortured undead, he isn't one.

He is smart and has been more than humbled. He has played along with everything we demanded so far.

And you guys don't want to give him a chance to excel during the next years and prove he has what it takes. To rule in our name, under our laws.
 
:facepalm:

Don't get salty when people automatically like Angels. You guys are doing exactly the same to Amrelath.

Look at what was actually said: he wants to serve under us, in our empire.

You guys are telling him you will allow him the honor of carving a realm in the PoF in our name.

That's all but spitting on his offer.

Look at Relath, once the pecking order is properly established, it's been smooth sailing.

So you guys are voting to throw away powerful, valuable vassal.

Because you don't trust the single most punished Dragon alive to not be a raging asshole, when even as a enternally-tortured undead, he isn't one.

He is smart and has been more than humbled. He has played along with everything we demanded so far.

And you guys don't want to give him a chance to excel during the next years and prove he has what it takes. To rule in our name, under our laws.
Please take down the straw-man. Seriously.

Just go back two pages and read again and you will notice that I'm the one who told @Goldfish to not treat him like a CE nutcase just because his creature entry says so. You are warping everything I say through a lens of false assumptions about my intentions.

I want to make this work. Not get rid of him.
 
What are you even arguing against? Or for, for that matter? :jackiechan:

He was stuck into that tower for millennia with barely any sensory input or any kind of social contact. That he isn't a raving lunatic from the isolation alone is rather impressive, but how you try to shoehorn this into any kind of advantage for him is beyond me.

This is nothing about trust, but about the need to get him outside of a bit and interact with people he actually accepts as people instead of vermin before putting him in charge of anything bigger then a lemonade stand.
I'm arguing that Dragon racism is as bad or worse than angel/devil ones, and that Amy especially proves the exception to the rule, and people are saying "lol can't trust a crazy psychopathic Red".

He has survived the very worse there was, and came out whole and reasonable.

I'm saying we give him years in our service to adjust and say, if he proves ft, we have no problem with it. Why would we?

My vote works as well as yours, except I keep our relationship healthier and don't prejudge him unfit.

If he still sees people as random vermin, then after his trial period is over we can say "alright, you will rule in the PoF".

But pre committing is insulting and gains us nothing that waiting and seeing and using him at his most devoted would.
 
Because you don't trust the single most punished Dragon alive to not be a raging asshole, when even as a enternally-tortured undead, he isn't one.
And this point in particular. I'm trusting him to be right next to a bunch of rather proud and prickly allies of ours and for him to speak in our name. Would I even contemplate to do this if I considered him a raging asshole by default?

Unlike your "maybe later" vote, I'm actually sending him on mission that requires him to prove himself.
 
:facepalm:

Don't get salty when people automatically like Angels. You guys are doing exactly the same to Amrelath.

Look at what was actually said: he wants to serve under us, in our empire.

You guys are telling him you will allow him the honor of carving a realm in the PoF in our name.

That's all but spitting on his offer.

Look at Relath, once the pecking order is properly established, it's been smooth sailing.

So you guys are voting to throw away powerful, valuable vassal.

Because you don't trust the single most punished Dragon alive to not be a raging asshole, when even as a enternally-tortured undead, he isn't one.

He is smart and has been more than humbled. He has played along with everything we demanded so far.

And you guys don't want to give him a chance to excel during the next years and prove he has what it takes. To rule in our name, under our laws.
Is the plane of fire not a good place for him?

Can you explain why?

I acknowledge your points but I'm still a little leery of throwing him in the deep end...

Edit: we could also. Taaaaalk to him about what exactly he wants and our concerns.

We dont have to go off half cocked here.
 
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I'm arguing that Dragon racism is as bad or worse than angel/devil ones, and that Amy especially proves the exception to the rule, and people are saying "lol can't trust a crazy psychopathic Red".

He has survived the very worse there was, and came out whole and reasonable.

I'm saying we give him years in our service to adjust and say, if he proves ft, we have no problem with it. Why would we?

My vote works as well as yours, except I keep our relationship healthier and don't prejudge him unfit.

If he still sees people as random vermin, then after his trial period is over we can say "alright, you will rule in the PoF".

But pre committing is insulting and gains us nothing that waiting and seeing and using him at his most devoted would.
Fine. Whatever.

It's obviously a waste of effort to talk to you right now, since you are pretty much ignoring my arguments entirely in favor of repeating your own narrative.
 
@Azel Why do we even need to specify where we will send him to rule in our name at this time? He still owes us years of service. We can settle that when it actually matters rather than fighting over it now.
 
@Azel Why do we even need to specify where we will send him to rule in our name at this time? He still owes us years of service. We can settle that when it actually matters rather than fighting over it now.
Because I want him doing something productive and there is nothing productive for him to do on Planetos. We don't need a full-time beatstick of his size here and he has shown very clearly that sending him on diplomatic missions against humans is a bad idea, not because he is a dragon, but because he is an ornery old coot. His behavior has spoken volumes there. He will get on much better with the Salamanders then, say, Summer Islanders.

If we just settle on a lame "Eh. Maybe. Ask again later." he will continue to sit around doing nothing productive. Especially not when TNE is pushing some weird agenda about it being necessary for him to be on Planetos for some reason. He doesn't. Simple as that.

On the other side, we have interests in the PoF he can actually impact in a positive fashion, as his personality should be a lot more manageable for Outsiders then for humans and worst case, he can beatstick all day. If he would be both useful and likely happier there, why not send him?
 
[X] Accept in principle should he show himself fit for such a task once he is returned to life
-[X] At least we will wait for the years of his service to end in order to properly evaluate him.


It's a dragon. Based off past experience, it should be decent at ruling. Just give it a few years of real-life for Viserys' charms (the natural kind, not the magical) to work on him.
 
[X] Azel

Yeah gotta agree I don't think Amrelath ruling "monkeys" and "vermin" is going to make anyone happy. Like Relath is willing to take human brides and father half-dragon babies, which really isnt a sign of respect at all, but at least shows more willing-ness to at least interact with humans than Mr. "Why lower my fear aura? I dont even wanna talk to anyone who cant take it," and "ugggghh why do I have to share my knowledge with humans."

Not to mention I'm pretty sure theres been a lot of "what can we even do with Amerlath? Theres nowhere we really wanna send him..." As for the Salamander/Efreeti, etc overpowering a lone dracolich, well this is an excellent time for him to learn things like cooperation, planning, etc etc. Time to sink or swim.
 
Obviously. He is basically the on-site attache / merc of our alliance. Whenever something big happens that he can't handle himself, Viserys will come over to lay down the smiting.

Edit: Mind you that this is a very neat thing to happen. He will learn to ask for help or die by being a stubborn solo-actor. And said help will come from his liege lord, neatly reinforcing the draconic pecking order.

The problem about spells like Status :: d20srd.org is that it does not work off-plane, so we can't show up after he dies and get the crafting mats out of his corpse handily.

Also, unrelated, a community domain mystic would be so freaking op for b-team/inquistion purposes. Can an archivist learn domain spells? : Status, Greater :: d20srd.org

[X] Azel

Could have been called Plan "Fuck No" :p

Also, Viserys needs doors badly.

edit: If fencing the loot would help with our cover for the reason behind the assassination, then I'd like to take the opportunity to bottle the courtesan, explain what's going on (she gave us info on the bey), rebottle her, and then release with a mindblank item when the party is equipped. Release into our inquisition, that is :D
 
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We're not sink or swimming him. We're goin to outfit him, out him in contact with the local information network, and presumably give him cash.

@Azel are we mindblanking him? The sultan is ona dragon hunt at the moment and he can't plane shift.
 
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