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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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das_slash said:
Just like bombing one of those towns that make planes.
That we can justify It does not make It any less of a slaughter of innocents.
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This isn't remotely what we did. What you describe is dropping barrels of Wildfyre on the neighbourhood and calling it a day.

We removed just the factory and made sure not even the direct neighbours are at significant risk.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is there could have been civilians in there, smallfolk just trying to survive and you killed them with wildfire. That said Viserys did come out of this resolved if saddened. He still thinks he did the right thing in the end.
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Didn't we do this in the middle of the night?

I'm not even sure if we got that many guild members, let alone some random people visiting.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is there could have been civilians in there, smallfolk just trying to survive and you killed them with wildfire. That said Viserys did come out of this resolved if saddened. He still thinks he did the right thing in the end.
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Wait, the wildfire in the place already or shadow of the doom?

I thought SotD was just fluff in the green bit! When I first read the spell, I took it to mean volcanos too, not hellfire.

And SotD, allows for saving lives. Fix the statue fragments and cast stone to flesh.
 
Azel said:
This isn't remotely what we did. What you describe is dropping barrels of Wildfyre on the neighbourhood and calling it a day.

We removed just the factory and made sure not even the direct neighbours are at significant risk.
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Still, its on your definition of innocent.
Many of those we just killed with Wildfire were just doing a job, that as far as they were concerned was a service to the crown, they had nothing to do with the attack on SD and may actually not have heard of It.
You want to call them guilty, go ahead, but you are not Viserys, and most people would still call them innocent

Edit: i'm not saying It was wrong to do It, and neither is Viserys, but lets not delude ourselves, It was a shitty thing we just did.
 
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@Azel
You see this as a war operation against an enemy military facility. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that she's a little softer and less used to military logic. To her, this was the murder of a bunch of merchants and researchers just because a few of them might possibly have been guilty of something and because they sold a weapon to someone else (they didn't use it themselves!).

I don't agree with her, but her PoV isn't completely insane.
 
Meh. She is working for a butcher and uses curses on the golden shield Mages to ensure their obedience from what I remember.

This just reminds me that Viserys is still a massive softie.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
@Azel
You see this as a war operation against an enemy military facility. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that she's a little softer and less used to military logic. To her, this was the murder of a bunch of merchants and researchers just because a few of them might possibly have been guilty of something and because they sold a weapon to someone else (they didn't use it themselves!).

I don't agree with her, but her PoV isn't completely insane.
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It's not Lannas, but Viserys reaction.

We probably killed ten times as many people in the Disputed Lands this month by enforcing martial law.
The Lyseni army is on the chopping block.
We talked the Salamanders into a rebellion that will see thousands dead on their side.
We aided Zherys to set up a political purge that will not care one bit about guilt or innocence.

We kill a fuck-ton of people every time we leave the bedroom, so this thing comes off as grossly misplaced.
 
Azel said:
It's not Lannas, but Viserys reaction.

We probably killed ten times as many people in the Disputed Lands this month by enforcing martial law.
The Lyseni army is on the chopping block.
We talked the Salamanders into a rebellion that will see thousands dead on their side.
We aided Zherys to set up a political purge that will not care one bit about guilt or innocence.

We kill a fuck-ton of people every time we leave the bedroom, so this thing comes off as grossly misplaced.
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Agreed. This felt like way too much considering our reasoning behind this.
 
Azel said:
It's not Lannas, but Viserys reaction.

We probably killed ten times as many people in the Disputed Lands this month by enforcing martial law.
The Lyseni army is on the chopping block.
We talked the Salamanders into a rebellion that will see thousands dead on their side.
We aided Zherys to set up a political purge that will not care one bit about guilt or innocence.

We kill a fuck-ton of people every time we leave the bedroom, so this thing comes off as grossly misplaced.
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Its the Wildfire thing, its our pet issue.
Viserys is a character, not the sum of the threads psychoses.
 
[x] Snowfire

as much as I would agree with Lanna if there was a better way, there was not.... and Ms "My Lord Paramount exterminated two whole houses for a show of defiance" better not moralise at us when we were merciful in our chastisement for terrorist activities that SHE enabled. With that said, I dont see any point to having this conversation now. Either we immediately kidnap her and Gerion for use as hostages, or we leave after showing her just how much she fucked up.

Edit: though if we do meet her again, I want to show her just how we could have ERASED casterly rock in an hour or so if we'd wanted just to see the look on her face as sh realises what our father (or Aerys) would have done with that kind of power
 
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If it's any consolation, it is very unlikely that any mortals survived the collapse of the Guildhall long enough to be killed by Wildfire.
 
I kinda read it as Viserys soft spot. The chink in his armour. His father is a huge problem for him. So to have that be said after dealing with a problem his father caused. It would cause some emotions
 
das_slash said:
That she is also guilty has not actual effect on what we did.
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It kind of affects my ability to give a damn when she calls us out on it, though.

Honestly we should just tell her to investigate herself already. "FFS, do a divination woman, they were working on bringing through a CR 18 fuck you monster from Hell. And burning the city down, that too."
 
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@Azel I'll drastically disagree. Our actions here deliberately led to the deaths of dozens of innocent people. Now granted, the ends clearly justified the means, but there still may have been a hypothetical way to not get any innocents killed.

Viserys feeling momentarily guilty about that is GOOD, as that means he still understands the value of human life and isn't looking at everything like it's a numbers game.
 
Seriously? How much of a hypocrote is this Mary Sue wannabe? Even if she really doesnt nkw anything about even the hell corruption in the orders key produck. Which given the fact that her power comes from a fricking genie in her pocket and she probable atleast saw some wildfire in the past is a big stratch.

"Oooh! You set off the Terror Weapon manufacturers weapons stockpile before they were shipped out! You monster! Worse than Maegor! They were just tradesmen! Who are you to judge!"

Kinda want to chuck a rotten tomato cart at her.(We have the strength stat to make the toss)
 
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065tdsa said:
It kind of affects my ability to give a damn when she calls us out on it, though.

Honestly we should just tell her to investigate herself already. "FFS, do a divination woman, they were working on bringing through a CR 18 fuck you monster from Hell. And burn the city down, that too."
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Its really weird to hear that people want Viserys to be 100% cool and objective while saying that some detail of the conversation makes them emotional.

Also, dont remind me that we Lost the opportunity to capture Yss' birthday cake :cry:
 
Seriously guys, guilt is an emotion, you control acting on them, not feeling them.
And no matter how much some of you would like It, Viserys is not Evil, people matter to him.
 
Azel said:
It's not Lannas, but Viserys reaction.

We probably killed ten times as many people in the Disputed Lands this month by enforcing martial law.
The Lyseni army is on the chopping block.
We talked the Salamanders into a rebellion that will see thousands dead on their side.
We aided Zherys to set up a political purge that will not care one bit about guilt or innocence.

We kill a fuck-ton of people every time we leave the bedroom, so this thing comes off as grossly misplaced.
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Don't worry. Soon we'll be killing people without even getting out of bed!
 
chryssalideater said:
@Azel I'll drastically disagree. Our actions here deliberately led to the deaths of dozens of innocent people. Now granted, the ends clearly justified the means, but there still may have been a hypothetical way to not get any innocents killed.

Viserys feeling momentarily guilty about that is GOOD, as that means he still understands the value of human life and isn't looking at everything like it's a numbers game.
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Funny that it's apparently a neat little numbers game every time I strike out a few thousand people from the statistics. Something around 2,000 minor tyroshi nobles this month from enforcing our laws if my memory serves. Probably well over 10,000 lower class people that acted as their enforcers.

This is what it means to rule. People live and die by your decisions. Thousands of them.
 
Azel said:
It's not Lannas, but Viserys reaction.

We probably killed ten times as many people in the Disputed Lands this month by enforcing martial law.
The Lyseni army is on the chopping block.
We talked the Salamanders into a rebellion that will see thousands dead on their side.
We aided Zherys to set up a political purge that will not care one bit about guilt or innocence.

We kill a fuck-ton of people every time we leave the bedroom, so this thing comes off as grossly misplaced.
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  1. Yes but martial law is still law, it follows rules and at least in theory does not kill anyone its not supposed to, anyone who is not transgressing in some way
  2. The Lysene army by definition chooses to fight so do the salamnders,
  3. The purge is on Zherys call as the ruler of Volantis, Vyserys was just an ally
What makes this different is Viserys' need for control. He made the call to potentially kill people who may have been blameless of anything beside proximity to the real culprits. Further it does not help that it is wildfire, something that reminds him of his father's worst tyrannical excesses.

To sum things up. Is the reaction rational? No and he even knows that himself, but then emotions rarely are
 
Azel said:
Funny that it's apparently a neat little numbers game every time I strike out a few thousand people from the statistics. Something around 2,000 minor tyroshi nobles this month from enforcing our laws if my memory serves. Probably well over 10,000 lower class people that acted as their enforcers.

This is what it means to rule. People live and die by your decisions. Thousands of them.
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Very very different from doing It yourself, ask any politician (with the exception of Putin, thats one ice-cold motherfucker)
 
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