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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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egoo said:
*sleepily*
Rule of thumb?

Everything that isn't an artifact, or has a consciousness of its own, can be trivially identified with a ritual.

That doesn't mean we'll get deep insight in it's nature, case in point - Dany still going to research dragonscale tablets, even though we got them identified.

But this whole thing fleshes out the world.
A lot.

And as much as I loathed reading though "identification" stuff when I was catching up on quest, it, too, was important to establish the setting and the characters.
A lot.
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I guess a large part of my frustration is that the ritual says it works according to the identify spell when it clearly doesn't. In other words, a mechanics clarity issue. Lya should be able to tell us precisely where it differs from the standard spell because she has 24 spellcraft and 23 arcana, and that ic knowledge should inform how we go about identifying our items. Do intelligent items get a save? Then likely you would have to wait 24 hours before trying again, like with Analyze Dweomer. If it simply doesn't work at all, then that is a very good argument for AD to exist, since high level wizards/planar empires have an incentive to develop a spell that does identify them.
Similarily, with an obvious magic item like the staff that has no visible aura, the basic assumption of someone as intelligent as Lya should be that it has a magic aura effect, and she would then repeat identify every day while buffed until she made her save.

(By the way, does the chest of blood have an aura?)
 
It does seem silly, when you put it like that.

Have you considered him doing it for the Plot, though?

Sometimes characters (Illyrio) get a free pass from repeated (Tor) certain doom because they still serve a purpose.

Aberi.
 
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Crake said:
It does seem silly, when you put it like that.

Have you considered him doing it for the Plot, though?

Sometimes characters (Illyrio) get a free pass from repeated (Tor) certain doom because they still serve a purpose.

Aberi.
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Plot that relies on our characters not behaving sensibly is plot that I don't really enjoy. I believe that DP is a good enough writer to not need to rely on an ic/oc information divide to create cheap mystery.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Plot that relies on our characters not behaving sensibly is plot that I don't really enjoy. I believe that DP is a good enough writer to not need to rely on an ic/oc information divide to create cheap mystery.
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It's not necessarily character behaviour but an arbitrary limit, annoying sure but the world doesn't lack for arbitrary limits.

E.g. Why is a Fireball fully effective at maximum range and has zero effect 12 inches after that?
 
I'm more amused than anything else. Peripherally I realize my outrage was genuine months ago, but now I realize I'm not responsible enough to exercise outrage.
 
Deliste said:
It's not necessarily character behaviour but an arbitrary limit, annoying sure but the world doesn't lack for arbitrary limits.

E.g. Why is a Fireball fully effective at maximum range and has zero effect 12 inches after that?
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I have no problem with arbitrary limits, in principle. If the identification ritual absolutely does not work on intelligent magic items, then that is fine: we can use AD or develop a better ritual, etc. I dislike this limbo of not knowing the precise arbitrary limits of the spell/ritual we are casting, when the characters using the ritual should definitely know.
 
Speaking of stupid plots..
I need to rant a bit.
So, i am alliance at heart, but for the last two expansions i've played horde because all my Friends play horde.
But with the pre-patch event for the Next expansion i encountered some of the most stupid, laziest writing ever.
So, long story short the war between the alliance and the horde starts again after the burning of teldrassil, for months there was speculation about if the alliance attacked the undercity first, if sylvanas did burn the tree or if she was blamed for It by a third party that wants a war.
The Truth turned out to be much, much more stupid.
Basically Sylvanas defeats the defenders (while the main army was somewhere else), and prepares to capture the city, when she encounters a wounded sentinel, she decides its the perfect moment for a heart to heart, but when she tells the sentinel her plans, she says that she pities her, and if she really wants to exterminate all Life on azeroth, she Will fail, because she cannot kill Hope.
At this... Sylvanas throws a tantrum, and starts screaming "Burn it, Burn It!" In a way that would make daddy proud.
Thats It, you are forced to watch as thousands of children and civilians Burn to death because our pathetic excuse for a warchief got told she is stupid.
She just went Full chaotic Evil in what Blizzard chooses to call a "morally Grey" event. With zero player agency involved.
So, yeah, dont get salty over smalls things, DP is an awesome GM, and most players are actually quite reasonable and involved.
 
spiritualatheist said:
I guess a large part of my frustration is that the ritual says it works according to the identify spell when it clearly doesn't. In other words, a mechanics clarity issue. Lya should be able to tell us precisely where it differs from the standard spell because she has 24 spellcraft and 23 arcana, and that ic knowledge should inform how we go about identifying our items. Do intelligent items get a save? Then likely you would have to wait 24 hours before trying again, like with Analyze Dweomer. If it simply doesn't work at all, then that is a very good argument for AD to exist, since high level wizards/planar empires have an incentive to develop a spell that does identify them.
Similarily, with an obvious magic item like the staff that has no visible aura, the basic assumption of someone as intelligent as Lya should be that it has a magic aura effect, and she would then repeat identify every day while buffed until she made her save.

(By the way, does the chest of blood have an aura?)
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Perhaps it's not the best wording for the ritual's fluff, but that is a minor concern. The Identify spell doesn't exist in this setting, so we make do with what's available.

As for the staff, hiding a magical aura is surprisingly simple. Our Greater Ribbons of Disguise do the same thing and they're relatively cheap, and have a very low caster level. If the aura is part of the mechanism through which the Identification ritual functions, that's a hard no-sell for it.

Or I could be completely wrong.
 
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I am very much hyped for a dragon corpse. And not just that, a True Dragon's corpse. At long last! :D There are so many things we can make out of that. I have a List.

Dragonhide for armor for the druids, literally the best that they could ask for
Dragonhide for the hilts of swords (there's a special dexterity bonus against disarming, Ser Richard has it on Oathkeeper since the hilt was made from the feydrake's hide)
Skull with Make Whole to get an awesome trophy
Maybe the blood and organs can be harvested for something
Dragon Gut to make neat Lute strings
And dragonbone to make bows (Soft Strider's getting an upgrade for sure)
Maybe loose scales for alchemy stuff?
 
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Duesal said:
I am very much hyped for a dragon corpse. And not just that, a True Dragon's corpse. At long last! :D There are so many things we can make out of that. I have a List.

Dragonhide for armor
Dragonhide for the hilts of swords (there's a special dexterity bonus against disarming, Ser Richard has it on Oathkeeper since the hilt was made from the feydrake's hide)
Skull with Make Whole to get an awesome trophy
Maybe the blood and organs can be harvested for something
Dragon Gut to make neat Lute strings
And dragonbone to make bows (Soft Strider's getting an upgrade for sure)
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I'll be disappointed if it's actually a dragon. There are so many great creatures who might be masquerading as a dragon.
 
Duesal said:
I am very much hyped for a dragon corpse. And not just that, a True Dragon's corpse. At long last! :D There are so many things we can make out of that. I have a List.

Dragonhide for armor for the druids, literally the best that they could ask for
Dragonhide for the hilts of swords (there's a special dexterity bonus against disarming, Ser Richard has it on Oathkeeper since the hilt was made from the feydrake's hide)
Skull with Make Whole to get an awesome trophy
Maybe the blood and organs can be harvested for something
Dragon Gut to make neat Lute strings
And dragonbone to make bows (Soft Strider's getting an upgrade for sure)
Maybe loose scales for alchemy stuff?
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It may be a dinosaur, dont get too hyped.
It controls raptors, and the love for loot its not endemic to dragons.
Edit: aberration'd
 
I suspected probably some kind of feather'd creature. Dragonkin maybe.

Edit: I'm impressed by Bronn's ability to intuit "they don't seem worried so I probably shouldn't seem worried either" and just roll with whatever crazy adventure that comes his way.

The calculus here is that what you can lose is proportionate to what you can win, rather than just gambling life and limb against gold or favors.
Adhoc vote count started by Crake on Aug 9, 2018 at 11:58 PM, finished with 257 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Plan Getting On With It
    -[X] Necromancer
    --[X] On a second thought, this is a bad idea. Let's make this a polite social call and just be on our way.
    --[X] Have some small-talk with the Necromancer about magical research, then thank him for his time and guestfriendship before being on your way.
    -[X] Have some small-talk with the High Priest about his faith and it's relation to other beliefs, like the Old Gods or Burny. Then talk with Meraxas directly about the vision you had about the meeting of the 14 and their plans.
    [X] Plan TNE
    -[X] Stranger Danger
    --[X] Offer to let him study a unique shadow you've caught, as long as he shares the results of course.
    -[x] Meraxes
    --[X] Have some small-talk with the High Priest about his faith and it's relation to other beliefs, like the Old Gods or Burny. Then talk with Meraxas directly about the vision you had about the meeting of the 14 and their plans.
    [X] Abstain
    [X] Same Deal as the last time
    -[X] We have acquired a number of creatures and items of power that are related to the field of necromancy, and which we do not have the time to personally study.
    -[X] We would like him to study them, and share his results with us.
    -[X] To offset the time he would be taking away from his own projects, we have a acquired a large collection of arcane lore. Some of which we may be willing to share.
    -[X] Consider offering him a job in the future if this goes well and does not backfire
    [X] Inquire as to the state of the temple following the invasion.
    -[X] With the high priest.
    --[X] Express interest in helping the temple in the future. Hint subtly, or not so subtly at what he might be willing to provide in exchange for "help".
    -[X] With Meraxes.
    --[X]talk with Meraxas directly about the vision you had about the meeting of the 14 and their plans.
    -[X] To the Necromancer
    -[X] Ask how his own studies have progressed, you are excited by the prospect of more magical trade between Volantis and your own realm, and wish to know not only about what he has to offer, but to hear about any exciting discovery for the betterment of mankind.
    -[X] Mention that you found yourself as Liege for a very special being, tell him about Amrelath and his desire to return to flesh, you would allow him to study him (with the proper respect, he is a dragon after all) in exchange for his insight and help.
    -[X] To sweeten the pot, you can also provide access to certain necromantic objects and texts, should he also do the same. (The corpse cage, some not too important tomes for now).
    -[X] To Meraxes
    -[X] Thank the priest for his time, but some of the things we need to discuss are too important to risk anyone hearing, you need to speak to his Godess directly.
    -[X] If she doen't manifest an avatar or something, have Dany commune with the echo.
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Dammit, i haven been able to properly write for the last few days, by now i just hope i'll be able to finish the omakes before they return from this adventure.
 
Goldfish said:
Perhaps it's not the best wording for the ritual's fluff, but that is a minor concern. The Identify spell doesn't exist in this setting, so we make do with what's available.

As for the staff, hiding a magical aura is surprisingly simple. Our Greater Ribbons of Disguise do the same thing and they're relatively cheap, and have a very low caster level. If the aura is part of the mechanism through which the Identification ritual functions, that's a hard no-sell for it.

Or I could be completely wrong.
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Maybe it is a minor concern, but it still rubs me the wrong way. I don't particularly care one way or the other, I just want clarity at this point.

Magic Aura can in fact be an at-will power for intelligent items, and does not allow a save at all unless you identify it or similar. So the probably intelligent staff that has no aura almost certainly possesses it. One interesting test would be casting dispel magic on the staff to see what it's aura actually looks like. Probably an are dispel, so we don't suppress the item.

As for our ribbons, they just have a magic aura effect built in as far as I can tell. It does not allow a save unless identified anyway.
 
spiritualatheist said:
I have no problem with arbitrary limits, in principle. If the identification ritual absolutely does not work on intelligent magic items, then that is fine: we can use AD or develop a better ritual, etc. I dislike this limbo of not knowing the precise arbitrary limits of the spell/ritual we are casting, when the characters using the ritual should definitely know.
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You misunderstand, the Arbitrary limit would be Indentification ritual existing, not working on some things and there being no higher tier spell to cover the gap, i.e the arbitrary limit is lack of Analyse Dweomer or equivalent.
 
[X] TotallyNotEvil

This is a bit annoying to read first thing in the morning.
I just wanted our gathered lore to be used better and profit from the results.
I don't see why we have to trust the Necro for that, even if he doesn't tell us everything now, in time he will because he will be working with other mages at least some of whom will talk to us.

In a larger picture you could say that by making him part of our scholastic landscape and opening up for exchange of ideas and research between him, us and other mages working with us we are making sure that all but his very closest secrets will eventually end up in our hands.

@Azel Do you see that differently?
 
Goldfish said:
See, dude, that's the problem. You can't see how your overreaction was itself toxic. Never mind fertile ground for future toxicity, you just sent the thread into a spiral of recrimination and doubt, when we could have handled it much more calmly.

My "behavior" was trying to guide the thread back toward constructive dialogue. That should have been pretty clear.

I don't know if you've had a bad day, or what, but you are normally much smoother and well reasoned in your arguments.
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Alright, one last attempt.

Say I make the next turn vote and include a note to handle a outstanding level-up as part of the minor actions. Say I write "level Richard as Aristocrat".

People either don't notice it or are to caught up in other arguments to say something about it. A few even like the idea.

A while later, DP posts a chapter about Richard taking decorum lessons from Rhealla and the vote is to define how he should distribute his skill-points for his new level of Aristocrat, since I didn't specify this so far.

Obviously, you are strongly opposed to him taking a level in an NPC class, surprised at it having happened and want to get things back on track to level him in something useful.

Now I tell you "no, because of the chapter being written, he must take that level". And I will doggedly insist on this and try to force you to change your vote to a level in Aristocrat.


Do you think this is good?
 
Point taken.

Personally I don't think there's a systemic solution better than a band-aid, because it would throw our usual structure out of whack, and I would rather not experiment when the simpler solution is just to be better.

So while I can't speak for everyone, I will try to slow down and point out when a portion of a vote hasn't been given enough outlining for respective goals, because it might be someone in particular's point of contention, or the thread might be too apathetic and thus create resentment since only apathy allowed a decision to be pressed forward in the first place.

[X] Azel

Can we move on?

Edit: Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic... I'm tired of circling a subject when we're all just here to help each other and come to a proper consensus over the direction of the story. If we can't even do that then this becomes much, much less fun to direct any energy towards.
 
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