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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Wiadi said:
Okay, wait, I admit I may have missed it among all the thread discussion but can someone explain to me what we possibly gain by taking the Kielmyr marriage offer now instead of waiting to see other options? 'cause that choice is doing shockingly well for no reason apparent to me.
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As the chief proponent for the marriage, I'll break it down:

  1. The Kielmyr are not really going to be able to further incentivize such a great offer
  2. The longer we wait the more the Sketch and Hes can catch wind and try and lobby the Kielmyr to back out or bid us higher
  3. It's likeliest the best possible outcome anyways
  4. We seriously can't afford Khemetri or Black Sheep husbandoes, it's political suicide for the heir of our nation, which derives its legitimacy from being a pan-ymaryn union to not be ethnically Ymaryn. Full stop.
  5. It both dissuades the Sketch and Hes from fighting, and forces them to react and respond (alternative steel sources and a major Syffryn ally) at a time where the Hes are already examining other prospects (a Behryvar alliance against Ochruhr-Etal) and we need to fix shit in the East
  6. Any of the fractious individuals who don't want to fuck with the Continental Super Power, and those hard liners who do are going to become especially vocal, right as we install espionage networks.
  7. Worst case and the Sketch push this to war, they'll be a blatant aggressor rather than vice versa with a Hes ally not fully committed and a sudden rebalance of naval power
It's a damn good move to make, maybe not the best possible option, but it's liable to be the best, and not taking it here has certain potential opportunity costs of its own. Out of curiosity, do you have any particular preferred betrothal or is this more a desire to keep our options open?
 
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My real question is, what better deal could we even get for Yenyna? Because I can't really think of anyone that would outbid the Kielmyr's offer. Can anyone else think of one?
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
My real question is, what better deal could we even get for Yenyna? Because I can't really think of anyone that would outbid the Kielmyr's offer. Can anyone else think of one?
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Not off the top of my head, soooo...

[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW

[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
 
Its less about getting deals and more about what the deals will be and who will try for Yentna's hand. In the end we will probaably still pick Kielmyr but we wpuld get some much needed info other counties
 
ManusDomine said:
You know, I actually really sympathize with this? It can feel really alienating if you aren't part of the decision-making process, especially with how quests are structured as essentially direct democracies, and it's not fair to be treated like that. But the matter of fact is that I would gladly talk plans in the thread if it was viable, but it isn't. Discord is faster, Discord lets me have private rooms where I don't have to write while a billion others are typing, Discord lets me calmly coordinate an infernally complicated spreadsheet in a matter of fourty minutes rather than four days.

In this way, this is indicative of flaws in Academia Nut's system, which is large, complicated and occasionally self-contradictory (HOW DOES IC REGENERATE???), but until an alternative is produced to this, there is really no other way except for spending a week in thread making up a plan that is infinitely inferior in every way, and without the spreadsheet-making genius of @Xepheria and @Xon. I am sure that anyone who knows how to make plans will gladly help you learn and show you the ropes, but you'll still ultimately be reliant on understanding and being capable of working with heavy amounts of spreadsheets to do anything at all.

I'm sorry, but that's just how this system works. :(
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Alright thanks Manus, I'll trust your judgement. Bye.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Perhaps a compermise can be reached and one of the plan makers on discord can attempt to post a rough outline of the current thinking every hour or so of active planmaking?

This way the thread can be involved at it's own slower pace while discord rushes ahead.

And maybe pop into the thread and post "active planning in discord" on the PoI thread so people can go to discord and watch.
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Thats what was going on yesterday though? Most of the discussion was on how to refine it.
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
My real question is, what better deal could we even get for Yenyna? Because I can't really think of anyone that would outbid the Kielmyr's offer. Can anyone else think of one?
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Sketch can outbid the Gylmaryn if they knew they had to. Maybe the Hespranxer can do the same.
 
sam5447 said:
Its less about getting deals and more about what the deals will be and who will try for Yentna's hand. In the end we will probaably still pick Kielmyr but we wpuld get some much needed info other counties
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And it would be good to know whether they like each other. This is royal marriage, I wouldn't want miracles and "real love", but It would be good if they could like each other.
 
liberty90 said:
And it would be good to know whether they like each other. This is royal marriage, I wouldn't want miracles and "real love", but It would be good if they could like each other.
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Already mentioned, the princess in question is fine with things and the Kielmyr prince is specifically inoffensive and unlikely to threaten her dominance
 
Insert tally
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Jun 8, 2018 at 5:57 AM, finished with 167 posts and 48 votes.
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Whahahaha. Feed the Walrus has come further than I ever imagined! The support for unchaining the beast that is Liberal policy is growing!

[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)

[X] Feed the Walrus. 12 PW for the Liberals.

With luck the Sketch will attempt to kill the Kiel prince in retaliation and fail, managing only to take out the king, his son, and all other heirs in the process.

Then we can bend the Kiel ecconomy to it's true purpose, trains.
 
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Citino said:
While Sewers might be priority #3 to Manus, RDI is priority 1 to Corn. So if people don't give manus his PW, him dropping his 3rd priority means that Corn has to drop one of his top priority actions.
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Well, this specific example doesn't actually work as Manus has indicated that the sewers are what the Conservatives will be doing regardless of PW donations. More broadly, I'll point out that I did specifically say such prioritizations would be approximate and non-binding - because yes, directly adhering to them could prove impossible depending on other factors - but they would still provide useful information to the thread about how things would break down when multiple avenues are available. Since it doesn't seem like a massive burden on the party leaders to supply such information, it seems like a reasonable request.
veekie said:
-The Sketch have no bloody clue we're about to marry the Kielmyr. They think they're giving a minor, isolated power proto-ironclads for the steel they need to make them.
--If we marry them before the Sketch realize what the shit is going on, theres a chance of sniping ironclad tech progress from the wedding gifts.
--Furthermore, the Sketch need a vast amount of steel right now to rearm their fleet and a Gylmaryn-Kielmyr alliance can jack the price up so they need to pick rearmament or economic stability.

-It's already been laid out how the other candidates are dead in the water, but here it goes again:
--Black Sheep - Too on fire. Alliance does not need reinforcement at present. Specifically noted to cause domestic stress by AN.
--Khemetri - Alliance does not need reinforcement at present. Specifically noted to cause domestic stress by AN.
--Behyvar - Tortun clusterfuck. Will trigger Ochruhr panic.
--Hung - Probably should avoid that first cousin marriage.
--Styrmyn - Tortun clusterfuck. Too small to matter.

Hespranxer, Sketch and Vortuga won't offer. Ochruhr will upset Behyvar and Kielmyr.
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Okay, thanks for summarizing. I'm a bit skeptical that we'd be tied quite that closely to the Kielmyr by this move, though - we're marrying into their line of succession, yes, but their heir is still free while we're marrying ours away. What's to stop them from continuing to milk their middleman status by (for example) playing on Sketch concerns about their closer alignment with us to get their actual heir or second-in-line married a favorable Sketch match?

Like, the deal is a good one, but I'm not convinced it will put the Kielmyr definitively in our corner. If you can persuade me that it will, then I'd be more inclined to support jumping on the opportunity, but as it is I'd rather make the decision with more information (even at potential cost to the effectiveness of the Kielmyr choice, if we end up going for it anyway).
Karugus said:
As the chief proponent for the marriage, I'll break it down:

  1. The Kielmyr are not really going to be able to further incentivize such a great offer
  2. The longer we wait the more the Sketch and Hes can catch wind and try and lobby the Kielmyr to back out or bid us higher
  3. It's likeliest the best possible outcome anyways
  4. We seriously can't afford Khemetri or Black Sheep husbandoes, it's political suicide for the heir of our nation, which derives its legitimacy from being a pan-ymaryn union to not be ethnically Ymaryn. Full stop.
  5. It both dissuades the Sketch and Hes from fighting, and forces them to react and respond (alternative steel sources and a major Syffryn ally) at a time where the Hes are already examining other prospects (a Behryvar alliance against Ochruhr-Etal) and we need to fix shit in the East
  6. Any of the fractious individuals who don't want to fuck with the Continental Super Power, and those hard liners who do are going to become especially vocal, right as we install espionage networks.
  7. Worst case and the Sketch push this to war, they'll be a blatant aggressor rather than vice versa with a Hes ally not fully committed and a sudden rebalance of naval power
It's a damn good move to make, maybe not the best possible option, but it's liable to be the best, and not taking it here has certain potential opportunity costs of its own. Out of curiosity, do you have any particular preferred betrothal or is this more a desire to keep our options open?
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As noted in my reply to veekie, I'm mostly interested in keeping options open, especially as I'm not convinced that this marriage with the Kielmyr will be as definitive a diplomatic coup as people are making it out to be.

Also, as a specific response to your Point 4: you realize that the Kielmyr aren't ethnically Ymaryn either, right? Nor for that matter are the Gylruv, or the Wyrmyn - in fact, a defining feature of the strain of Nationalism we developed was an emphasis on state identity over ethnic identity. It doesn't matter where you're from or what you look like, if you're willing to work for the benefit of the Gylruv-Ymaryn Dual Crown then you're one of us. See also our lack of legislated discrimination against minorities, and the availability of citizenship through military service. So I'm not sure where you're pulling the importance of being ethnically Ymaryn from, nor do I see how the Kielmyr would be a better option on that axis.
 
[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW


[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)

[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First

[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)

[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
 
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First

[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
 
we also have a small royal family the sooner it expands the better now 2 untimely dead's could lead us into a major problems as i do not recall siblings of Nokly and Yentna
 
Wiadi said:
Also, as a specific response to your Point 4: you realize that the Kielmyr aren't ethnically Ymaryn either, right? Nor for that matter are the Gylruv, or the Wyrmyn - in fact, a defining feature of the strain of Nationalism we developed was an emphasis on state identity over ethnic identity. It doesn't matter where you're from or what you look like, if you're willing to work for the benefit of the Gylruv-Ymaryn Dual Crown then you're one of us. See also our lack of legislated discrimination against minorities, and the availability of citizenship through military service. So I'm not sure where you're pulling the importance of being ethnically Ymaryn from, nor do I see how the Kielmyr would be a better option on that axis
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Yes, but we view the Syffrynites as less foreign- as AN has stated, and as skeevy it feels to say, half Scandinavian is liable to stand out a lot less as divergent from Not!russian and Not!Caucassian than Arabic or Persian/Indian heritage might. The truth of the matter is tangential to the appearance of the matter.

And we have very much propagandized Gylruvians and Wyrmyn to be Ymaryn. It's a massive exaggeration and a state propagated lie, but everyone including those ethnic groups believed them to be heavily connected to the Ymaryn people and shared ties to the OYE. Our nationalism is distinctly ethnic in character, as described when we developed it more helping the Khem against the Vortugas and believed an ethnically similar people should rule the natives of the island we took from the Vortugans. Why do you think AN has repeatedly mentiond the DM overhypes the OYE?

I suspect the perpetual desire to move against minorities during our ConCons is in part tied to how we've tied an assumed connection to the Ymaryn people with our country.
 
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A royal mariage of this high level is not one that can be broken by the junior partner. It would be war. Their prestiege would plummet. Our people would scream for it.

This ties Kiel to us for better or worse for a generation. Unless the Sketch abandon the UMP and marry into the Kiel line as well.

They won't. The Sketch are untrust worthy and incapable of trusting other. The Sketch response will be to activate their backup plans and still try to remain friendly. They will invest in Maxipraxia steel making and Kiel will respond by doubling down on the double crown. The Kiel will not help the Sketch build up a competitor.

This is a move we want.
 
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[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, thanks for summarizing. I'm a bit skeptical that we'd be tied quite that closely to the Kielmyr by this move, though - we're marrying into their line of succession, yes, but their heir is still free while we're marrying ours away. What's to stop them from continuing to milk their middleman status by (for example) playing on Sketch concerns about their closer alignment with us to get their actual heir or second-in-line married a favorable Sketch match?

Like, the deal is a good one, but I'm not convinced it will put the Kielmyr definitively in our corner. If you can persuade me that it will, then I'd be more inclined to support jumping on the opportunity, but as it is I'd rather make the decision with more information (even at potential cost to the effectiveness of the Kielmyr choice, if we end up going for it anyway).
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Well, for starters, royal marriages, especially one this close(this is as close as they can get without outright offering a Personal Union), has major obligations of mutual support, in the economic, political and military realms.

The Sketch will be very alarmed by this development, because it means that in the event of a war the Kielmyr's default behavior is no longer to sell to both sides and play the middleman, but instead to cut trade with the Sketch. Which would kill the Sketch's ability to replace or expand their fleet without exploding their economy.

Which means the Sketch must invest heavily in the next biggest iron production centers, which in turn would push the Kielmyr solidly into our sphere for personal interests.


Now, in theory they might try to marry both sides and keep playing the middleman...but thats literally the worst of both worlds for them because it creates a scenario where they may have to deal with a scenario of mutually exclusive military obligations, which costs prestige and trust.


Conversely, the Sketch, if they learn about this, might also rush a better offer and get their own royal marriage(if they still have royals in such a position) done first, to block our own attempt to get in. Because the Sketch just literally paid for an ironclad-suitable dock in the Kielmyr, which is going to probably drive their government insane when they find out about the wedding.
 
veekie said:
Conversely, the Sketch, if they learn about this, might also rush a better offer and get their own royal marriage(if they still have royals in such a position) done first, to block our own attempt to get in. Because the Sketch just literally paid for an ironclad-suitable dock in the Kielmyr, which is going to probably drive their government insane when they find out about the wedding.
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Remember when the Sketch were so smug when they asked us to support the grain prices again?

Ah, sweet payback.
 
Aabcehmu said:
Mahaxia. Or, well. I think you were technically referring to the United Provinces of Mahaxia (IE the UPM).
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Fine. I will try to spell it right. Myhyxya right? Yes, good.

Also. Kiel keeps trying to trade IC for SoL. That suggests they have high IC and low SoL. Have we considered offering to build them sewers in return for rail investment? They lock up 2 IC into a rail company they will get back eventually, we give them access to our sewer building knowledge and kick in temp IC to build them some. Basically we invert their rail investment. Good for us because we get more rail. Good for then because they gain permenant pollution reduction for what is in truth a temporary IC commitment that benifits them anyway.

Also, Idea for an action
2 PW, -2 perm IC, form royal water and sewer works. Just like a rail company but builds a sewer once per round.
 
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