100% torture, just not getting a person who has it as their full time/primary job.

Also, curse, while a higher spell level than ZoT, is better for individuals, due to will saves and knowing if the spell has taken or not - dp has it that one can save ZoT, and the caster does not know. (see when viserys met tyene).

Curse is a bit eiser to check as one can tell if it takes or not. (see rakasha cursing in Tyrosh)

ZoT is level 2 aoe over time, curse lvl 3 single target permanent
Curse is indeed a superior option, but it's currently out of reach for us en-mass unless we want to completely devote party member time to it. Even as head of the Inquisition, Malarys will have more important matters to attend to than cursing and interrogating the prisoners, unless said prisoner is marked at an incredibly high value. For example, just take a look at our current haul of sacrifices. 33 cultists, 1 cultist champion, and 9 daemons. Enough to utterly drain Tyene for a day (and possibly cut into Dany, Malarys, and Rina's magic as well).
Zone of Truth cast by an item or low-level mage is no more reliable than a person with high Sense Motive.

Let's say you have a regular Mystic with WIS 15 doing the interrogation.
ZoT would have DC 14, which any commoner can beat by luck and any level 5 Expert (perfectly possible for skilled traders or nobles) can beat with a better than half chance.
And you can't tell if someone is affected by the Zone without the Sense Motive check you'd have to make to catch them lying anyway.

To make torture reliable you need people on the same levels that would also make it unecessary due to other options. Suggestion is just level 3 and you can tell by Detect Magic if someone is affected or not.
I was thinking of a Heart Tree, actually. A CL 20 Zone of Truth for the Inquisition.

Nice and permanent, doesn't require party member supervision, able to be used by the NPCs of the Inquisition.
 
This is wrong. A bit of low-level magic with Zone of Truth is what makes torture effective. The reason torture is ineffective in the real world is that people will say anything to get the torture to stop. Here they'll be compelled to only tell the truth, or at least not spew out random "facts". If you have stronger magic on hand then of course go for it, but if not then this is a perfectly valid method.

The argument was not having enough mages to rely on magic, Zone of Truth gives a Will Save and you don't know if they passed it or not. As you are apparently delegating the casting to low levels it will be trivial to pass.

So you could put them in a ZoT and torture them all you'd like but if they were gonna lie on purpose then you can't trust them when they "can't lie" (I assume this is how you are testing the Zone of Truth is working.)

If they convince the interrogator they cannot lie they are now a powerful espionage tool, a witness we "know" is telling the truth.

If there is a novel way to use this I'm not seeing I'd love to see it explained.
 
I was thinking of a Heart Tree, actually. A CL 20 Zone of Truth for the Inquisition.
CL is nice and fine, but if we are interrogating humans it's the DC that matters.
What would that be?

And if we already make a Hearttree, why not one that casts Air of Nobility for a small price on the interrogator.
+10 on Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive for a non-torture interrogation should be enough to make any regular mortal talk with some reliability.
 
Part MCMXCVII: The Price of Freedom
The Price of Freedom

Twenty-Seventh Day of the Second Month 293 AC

It makes some sense that the truly competent and ambitious would have been purged by the parade of fiends that plagued the city, yet still you hope against hope that someone with at least the wits of the damn Ironborn is still out there, biding his or her time, letting these fools walk into the dragon's maw first. A great many possible answers cross your mind as the magisters mewl at you, some angry, others viciously mocking, and a few you will have to share with Dany when all this is over so that at least someone can get a laugh out of this pitiful lot... Salladhor Saan as Royal Shit-Talker would probably make more sense than half the positions in the Archon's bloated court, to judge from the fanciful titles most of them present themselves by

Shaking off that entertaining but sadly impractical notion you gather yourself to speak to the assembled magisters with utterly false good cheer, reminding yourself all the while that they probably have competent relatives, ones that can read, write and do sums, ones needed to run a city of over half-a-million souls.

Passing a hand over a sheaf of parchment you burn the letters of your foundation law into them, one for each head of house present. As you hand them out you address their 'concerns'. The slaves will not merely be left to starve and and cause chaos breaking the back of the city. For those who wish to remain in service you suggest the pay roughly equivalent to most menial tasks the world over as a minimum, just enough to keep body and soul together. Further you add that there are is no lack of opportunities for freed slaves who wish to make their own way. The legion for instance holds many a freed slave... your smile may have slipped to something far less reassuring as you said the last.

That at least straightens their spines a touch, if not as you would wish them to.

"So," a heavyset man begins, puffing himself up even further to the point where you almost fear the golden buttons of his waistcoat may pop and go flying through the room. "You are to take our slaves, whom we paid good coin for, fed and housed at our own expense, and then make us pay the ungrateful malcontents who would readily leave our service. As soon to cut our children's throat yourself than make us pay for the dagger that does it."

"A slave wishing to avenge him or herself with violence against former masters will be treated in like manner to any other criminal, just as looters will be hung on the morrow whether they were sellswords, Tyroshi guards, or even former members the Legion," you answer coldly, forbearing from reminding them that their children will be vastly safer than the countless slave children killed through neglect or malice throughout the years.

"Much good all that silver and freedom will do them once the food stops coming in and the bread riots start, as they have in Qohor," another magister mutters to his fellows in what he must believe is too low a voice for your to hear.

"Legitimate trade will resume shortly, if not with the same partners," you answer, fixing the suddenly paling man with a stare, then the smallest nod of approval for having the wits to think of it. "I assure you Braavosi wheat is no less filling than any other sort."

"And then we shall be beggared before those greedy bastards right enough," the first magister huffs again. "The outland cities will jump ship to Myr or Lys for certain. What then? Will you make war on them also, try to reforge the Triarchy under your rule?"

Yes, that and far more, you think behind clenched teeth. So far the most reasonable people you have met in this city were a girl of four-and-ten who has just been through hell and a bloody Red Priest. Instead you say, "Surely men of high stature such as yourselves can help encourage the rulers of these lesser cities to see reason." Justify why you are worth keeping alive.

From the look of them about a third of the assembled magisters understood the threat lurking beneath silken words, including, somewhat to your surprise the fat man. "It would be a great deal easier to persuade the lesser houses to align themselves with your rule, gracious one, if you did not demand that we pay for the privilege of having our slaves taken away," he says. "Perhaps even some compensation for all the years the slaves have been given food and shelter at their master's expense would not go amiss."

What do you reply?

[] Maintain your stance, magisters offer a small payment for every slave that leaves their service (vassal cities very likely to change allegiance)

[] Only demand they free their slaves (vassal cities likely divided, will require funds to keep the slaves who leave service fed and housed until they find their feet)

[] Offer some small compensation for the slave owners
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: The results of the Valaena vote will be handled once you get back to SD.
 
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The argument was not having enough mages to rely on magic, Zone of Truth gives a Will Save and you don't know if they passed it or not. As you are apparently delegating the casting to low levels it will be trivial to pass.
Damn it, I forgot why we decided we hate Zone of Truth and got rid of it for Tyene. Never mind, this idea is discarded. For what it's worth, the general plan was to establish a Permanency effect with Zone of Truth so that the higher-level casters wouldn't have to be present. We wouldn't have been relying on the low-level casters.
CL is nice and fine, but if we are interrogating humans it's the DC that matters.
What would that be?

And if we already make a Hearttree, why not one that casts Air of Nobility for a small price on the interrogator.
+10 on Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive for a non-torture interrogation should be enough to make any regular mortal talk with some reliability.
Freaking Zone of Truth. -_- It's like the creators of D&D taunted us with the perfect low-level interrogation spell... except missing a crucial piece.
 
On the one hand, why does every slave demand compensation when this is a "grandfather clause" type situation, especially when we intend upon relocation of those who can't find employment, as well as food doles or subsidized shelters like we've been doing with the last wave of immigrants to SD before they find their feet?

We always expected to have to shoulder the welfare program for the most part. Maybe a new tax? (Not an economist).

We could also deliver threats to the satellite cities, but whereas all of these magisters have assets tied up in Tyrosh itself, the lesser houses living on the mainland might feel that, since they're not under our eye directly, they might have better chances of turning coat by inviting the Lysene and Myrish in.

We could personally diplomance them after intimidating the other two Daughters to lay their hands off (for an agreed annexation of parts of the land bordering our territory with them) but still maintain control of the arable land we need in the short term without having to capitulate to these short-sighted fools.
 
Is this guy on purpose retarded or does he want us to do a true accounting of GDP generated vs cost to household per slave and have them foot the more detailed bill.

I'm genuinely confused how he thinks it's a valid argument, nobody runs equipment at a loss so you're either lying (death sentence) or incompetent (how I wish it was a death sentence).

[X] Diomedon

Reiterate and if he pipes up again, arrest the idiot.
 
I say we demand they pay more than previously cause they back talked us.

P.s. the part of the plan was to arrest anyone who back talks this should apply to the ones who just did.
 
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I'm about to head off to bed, but my first instinct here it to go over the vassal cities head and treat with Lys and Myr. If they don't accept the change of allegiance, like say with a bribe of some of the cities closest to their spheres of the disputed lands (which we know will be temporary), the remaining vassal cities are caught in a very tough position. Enter our Dothraki (who needs military victories, which are hard to have without ready opponents) to quickly encourage them.

If I'm overlooking something obvious there, and we have to suck it up and deal with the loss of most of the Tyroshi disputed lands, I'd prefer that to paying off slave owners (we have been preparing to import grain at non-price gouging rates from pretty much every ally we've talked to). We have a much stronger justification for crushing the ruling class of the satellite cities when they fall under our control again, because they'd then be traitors, who no one likes.

At worst, relenting on the reparations will still provide targets, and paying for the support of the freed slaves themselves should get us good will from them...but the costs there will be...not quite ruinous, but very painful.

Anyway, I got to go to sleep.

[X] Azel
 
@Duesal It's unlikely all of them will go along with it peaceably, even in the best diplomatic situation with our nearby rivals. As has been said, "there's always at least one". One angry enough, one stupid enough, or one insane enough.

@Diomedon, in addition to whatever we end up deciding, either the foreign diplomacy route, or an internal appeasement (as unlikely as that seems), I believe all this belly-aching is grounds to call their fucking bluff on "compensation" in regards to sheltering and maintaining human resources, and giving them a full fucking Audit. We don't lack the ability to do so what with our Super-Scribe constructs, and Viserys' spite-driven financial acumen.
 
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[x] Maintain your stance, magisters offer a small payment for every slave that leaves their service (vassal cities very likely to change allegiance)

Just make it clear that any city who turn tail will be considered traitors, and so when we come around, the ruling families who decided to turn tails wont get the mercy we showed in Tyrosh, only the children will be spared, that should keep a fair amount from changing alliance out of fear, and after we do it to one or 2, the rest should fall into line, if we promise them the same terms as Tyrosh if they surrender without battle.
 
There is no way I am paying the magisters a single cent if anything I wish they would lose everything they own. Half their wealth should go to the slaves each at least.
 
@Duesal It's unlikely all of them will go along with it peaceably, even in the best diplomatic situation with our nearby rivals. As has been said, "there's always at least one". One angry enough, one stupid enough, or one insane enough.

@Diomedon, in addition to whatever we end up deciding, either the foreign diplomacy route, or an internal appeasement (as unlikely as that seems), I believe all this belly-aching is grounds to call their fucking bluff on "compensation" in regards to sheltering and maintaining human resources, and giving them a full fucking Audit. We don't lack the ability to do so what with our Super-Scribe constructs, and Viserys' spite-driven financial acumen.

We probably can't do it for everyone...but we could graciously offer to do a precise accounting of compensation just for the fat one, since he seems to be so very concerned about it (what's this? You owe almost everything to the slaves in your employ, once I've accounted for the ones who have since died? As the custodian of the city, I clearly must take that portion in trust for those who are not here to collect their due. That leaves you with...oh dear...you don't happen to know a trade do you? Well, here's directions to where I'll be setting up the breadline...)
 
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We probably can't do it for everyone...but we could graciously offer to do a precise accounting of compensation just for the fat one, since he seems to be so very concerned about it.

This seems a reasonable compromise, of course we are a just and fair ruler so the service is available to anyone who would wish to participate.
 
We probably can't do it for everyone...but we could graciously offer to do a precise accounting of compensation just for the fat one, since he seems to be so very concerned about it.
Fuck no arrest the fat one he should be arrested I refuse to pay them a single cent if I could I would triple their payment each time they complain.
 
@Diomedon Agreed, we have the time and resources for at least him, and it would send a message: Viserys will not tolerate your bullshit, subtle or otherwise, and he doesn't need violence to utterly ruin you; He's such a genius at your own wheelhouse as to make you look fucking incompetent, and he's a fucking barbaroi! That means you're worse than a savage!
 
I'm mainly confused about how the satellite cities think they could possibly get away with it.

We just conquered a Free City in a day. We are a dragon, and we have another dragon. We slew fiends in the streets.

And these idiots think that jumping ship to another Free City will save them a bit of coin as well as save them from us?

Let them break away. This is natural selection, and it would be a crime to save those people. We need an excuse to get rid of the morons.
 
@Duesal They'll probably think the tales are exaggerated. Also, denial. No one wants to change their lifestyle from the ground-up. These magisters are only willing because they're now reasonably certain the alternative is death.
 
Fuck no arrest the fat one he should be arrested I refuse to pay them a single cent if I could I would triple their payment each time they complain.

Ah, you seem to have misread my intention. It's to go "Good idea" and then use his flimsy justification to beggar him, and then ask "Does anyone else have any good ideas, or are they happy with my plan?'

Edit: :ninja:

And I really should go to sleep.
 
Well that's the probable result regardless of an honest accounting or a justified robbery.

...good gods, when you're a dragon and robbery has a typification where it can be "justified".
 
@Duesal They'll probably think the tales are exaggerated. Also, denial. No one wants to change their lifestyle from the ground-up. These magisters are only willing because they're now reasonably certain the alternative is death.
Even if the tales are exaggerated, there's still a lot of common themes:

1. Viserys is a hellishly powerful mage who sent the entire Westerosi fleet fleeing from him.
2. Viserys keeps a court of similarly powerful mages.
3. Viserys now owns Tyrosh. His "ragtag army of pirates and sellswords" was enough to take a Free City.

It really is their own fault if they decide to break away and actually believe they can get away with it. Not wanting to change your lifestyle or no, only a genuine idiot won't be able to tell which way the wind is blowing. I'm looking forward to the excuse for reconquest.
 
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