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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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bluefur87 said:
We... can?

Like, no, I've been looking over this to figure out how stuff is supposed to work, we can totally do that, we just rarely have the PW to spare for it.

The +Perm IC cancels out the -1 Temp IC, so when we perform a develop industry action we get something like.

6(1) -> 7(1)

The key here is that we don't gain temp IC, but we do gain permanent IC. Corn's plan effectively spends 4 temp IC, while raising our temp IC by 3. The net change, therefore, is -1 Temp IC. It's just... incorrect math.

Corn's math has another error with the SoL now that I'm looking over it, since we're definitely recouping all SoL costs in both Temp and Permanent. And it can't be a 'we're spending the temp SoL now,' sort of deal, because that would say -4 or -3 Temp SoL, which yes, he's spending, but is making all of it back.

So no, Corn's math is just wrong. At least in some places.
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AN explicitly has told us that we cannot do this. You're working from an incorrect assumption, which is where the issue is coming from. I don't have the quote because it wasn't threadmarked, but you can ask him again if you don't want to take my word for it. In any case, the plans are working off this interpretation, which explains why the plan has 3x Raise Taxes.

You are correct that we don't gain Temp IC when raising Perm IC. It is neutral. The point is that if we have, say 6(3) IC, we can only raise our IC by 3 via Develop Industry because that is all the Temp IC we have to spend to begin with. The final result of that would by 9(3) IC.

As for Corn's math, it is correct if you account for not listing the Temp Stats gained from raising Perm Stats. For Temp SoL, it is -1 because he spend 4 Temp SoL and raises 3 Temp SoL via actions for a result of -1. The SoL gained from selling crown corporations is accounted for because we can spend it. It does not factor in the increase in Perm SoL. Formatting the math like this makes perfect sense if you are working from the assumption that stats gained from increasing Perm Stats does not matter for the purposes of plan budgeting.
bluefur87 said:
Also, to further poke a whole into this thought, as I think I see what you are saying here, Corn's plan would be invalid if that was true... along with tons of other plans that we have performed in the past.

We're explicitly spending more SoL than we have now, heck, we're explicitly spending more Temp IC than we have now in his plan and I'm fairly certain we have done so several times in the past. The only thing that waits until after the turn ends are things like gaining temp IC from please the liberals, which he specifically noted in a different section.
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The plan is valid. Temp Stats gained from actions like Raise Taxes or Sell Crown Corporation can be spent immediately. It is specifically just the Temp Stats gained from raising Perm Stats. This is because of the balancing reasons already described.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
SoL is narratively wierd. It sometimes acts like the money the governemnt has fluid (selling a crown corp grants temp SoL) and sometimes like the money the people have fluid (raising taxes DECREASES temp SoL)

This is strange to me and I have not fully understood what SoL actually represents. We are not selling a crown corp and just handing out cash on the street. It seems to me like it should act like a quick cash infusion to government like a temporary war tax IE a quick temp IC boost.
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Honestly the original design thought was more space age than industrial age, so there are some odd decisions that I haven't entirely reworked into a fully sensible system yet. Live testing has been required to find these issues. I may simply rename SoL at some point, since it has become the practical tax base, while also covering how much you can tax the population without them getting cranky.

Athanor said:
What sort of government does the Civilized Tribes have?
Are even the former slaves considered part of the original tribes, do they form their own tribes or is there some other sort of division?
Are there still Syffrons living in their lands or have they all been driven of?

The Civilized Tribes are the most interesting thing to come out from Mahaxia since the eldritch math ship! :grin:
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Diplomance them and find out.

SeptimusMagisto said:
Yeah, I'm guessing the narrative in this is going to be that natives are able to accomplish great things...as long as they're led by a white Syffrinite.
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I can confirm that while there are white guys in leadership roles, the overall leadership is native, with blacks having an important role as well.
 
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1840
Academia Nut said:
It doesn't matter. The more core to the function of the state, the lower on the list to be sold off they will be.
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Good to know. I suppose the specific corps being sold off won't even be listed until we're about at 1/3 left? Since most of those would be basic consumer goods and stuff.
tenchifew said:
I pretty much agree.
Granted, there could be another military and diplomatic genius on the side of the tribes, but one who also intimately understands how european countries fight?
This would be one hell of a coincidence.

I think there is a native american diplomatic and/or spiritual genius who recruited Faron and convinced other tribes to work with him.

And so Faron has his very own
"Dances with Wolves"
:p
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Its possible he staged his own death for fear of assassins. The best way to not be assassinated is to be thought dead

Academia Nut said:
I can confirm that while there are white guys in leadership roles, the overall leadership is native, with blacks having an important role as well.
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Definitely got a Clever Boi or three there, but the natives are doing AMAZINGLY at adapting to modern warfare and mating that with guerilla tactics to a degree that I would not be too surprised if they had Faron, an escaped former Prince of Greater Khemetri, a Native Genius and an Amusing Animal Sidekick working together.

The array of tactics displayed points to at least two exceptional individuals to be sure. And at least one Diplomancer on the scale of Faron, but open to native culture in a way that I suspect Faron could never be.
 
8bitBob said:
AN explicitly has told us that we cannot do this. You're working from an incorrect assumption, which is where the issue is coming from. I don't have the quote because it wasn't threadmarked, but you can ask him again if you don't want to take my word for it. In any case, the plans are working off this interpretation, which explains why the plan has 3x Raise Taxes.
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The mechanics have explicitly worked this way for the last few turns. AN has been rather confusing about things, and I'm not sure he entirely understands the mechanics he's placed down as a result. In order for Corn's plan to work and what you're saying to be true, however, IC has to work on a completely different rule set to the rest of the stats, because he's spending 3 SoL when we currently have 2.

Now, AN has been confusing enough, that I can actually buy that IC works off of completely different rules, despite that never actually being said, so let's clear this up.

@Academia Nut

When taking the Develop Industry action, are we limited to our current temp IC in how many we can do, or is it effectively just increasing the cap without increasing the temp stat.
 
veekie said:
And at least one Diplomancer on the scale of Faron
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Faron's Diplomacy was what got him killed dude. He alienated the other Republic, created the Third Coalition and dragged us into the war via his own Diplo blunders.

If they had a Diplomancer on the scale of Faron, the Sketch, New Hex, UPM and Nohon would have joined forces to kill them all already because they insulted them or provoked them all in some way.
 
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How It Works: Temporary IC and the Urbanites
  • Informational
    • bluefur87 said:
    When taking the Develop Industry action, are we limited to our current temp IC in how many we can do, or is it effectively just increasing the cap without increasing the temp stat.
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    In retrospect the mathematics of what I intended and what happened do not agree, but what has always been the case is that you are limited by how much temp IC you have.

    So if you have 3 IC and a max of 10, then if you devote everything you have, you can get up to 6 IC in a single move. However, because of the way the math worked out you still end at 6 (3) IC. You can consider it something of a lead time issue. Going back and forth on things, this will ultimately not annoy the Urbanites even though you sort of hit 0 IC at one point, because their ability to find work is not affected.
     
  • Informational
    • bluefur87 said:
    The mechanics have explicitly worked this way for the last few turns. AN has been rather confusing about things, and I'm not sure he entirely understands the mechanics he's placed down as a result. In order for Corn's plan to work and what you're saying to be true, however, IC has to work on a completely different rule set to the rest of the stats, because he's spending 3 SoL when we currently have 2.

    Now, AN has been confusing enough, that I can actually buy that IC works off of completely different rules, despite that never actually being said, so let's clear this up.
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    It is not different rules. As I explained, actions that specifically generate Temp Stats can be spent immediately. We have 2 Temp SoL, he raises 3 Temp SoL and spends 4 Temp SoL for a net result of -1 Temp SoL, which does not account for raising Perm SoL because we cannot spend the Temp SoL that generates. IC works exactly the same. 3+3-6=0 Temp IC, which does not account for the 2 Temp IC gained from raising Perm IC because we cannot spend it.

    Whether or not you agree with this interpretation is another matter which I won't argue, but the plans, formatting and math are valid and consistent within this paradigm.
     
    @Academia Nut To be extra clear, is Corn's plan valid for this turn?

    [][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1840
    -[][Agenda] Develop Industry - 0 PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 1, -1 Temp IC (One Use per Turn)
    -[][Agenda] Develop Industry - 1PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 2, -2 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Sell Crown Corporation (0/13) - 0 PW: +1 temp SoL (Usable once per turn)
    -[][Agenda] Sell Crown Corporation (0/13) - 1 PW: +2 temp SoL
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Develop Transport Infrastructure - 0 PW, -3 Temp IC, +1 Max Development
    -[][Agenda] Increase Navies - 2PW: Increases Navies by 1, -1 IC
    -[][Agenda] Reduce Food Prices: 1 PW (-3 Temp Trust, -1 SoL, +2 Trust)
    -[][Agenda] Accept Khemetri Population: 0 PW (+1 temp Militancy, +1 temp Consciousness, Kyberi Settlement action, Conservatives neutral, Liberals pleased)
    -[][Agenda] Diplomatic Outreach - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +2 Temp Trust (Propose a sale of weaposn to the Civilized Tribes of Mahaxia)
    -[][Agenda] Acknowledge Civilized Tribes: 0 PW (-5 Prestige, Royalists angered, Liberals pleased)
     
    [X] Cornuthaum

    With the UPM catching fire and us once again demonstrating that we can keep food prices stable, along with freedom of religion and growing civil rights, we seem posed to become the target for a whole lot of migrant waves.
     
    McLuvin said:
    Faron's Diplomacy was what got him killed dude. He alienated the other Republic, created the Third Coalition and dragged us into the war via his own Diplo blunders.

    If they had a Diplomancer on the scale of Faron, the Sketch, New Hex, UPM and Nohon would have joined forces to kill them all already because they insulted them or provoked them all in some way.
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    Guess what's coming up after we Recognize the state? :p

    Faron is a diplomatic genius in being able to bind the disparate Tortun subgroups which all fight each other as much as any outside party into a coherent whole. He was not so adept at the workings of the Gulmaryn(nobody does, the Sketch are still wondering whether we're playing Russian Roulette and consistently not dying or whether we planned everything and are looking like Jackie Chan when he's kicking butt), but he did correctly interpret that his best odds was a quick All On One battle where he had the industrial, military and logistical advantages of everyone coming over to him so he can smash them all one by one before his looted resources burn dry.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    Mechanically, it's cancelled out, but I suspect that classes affected by those are different.

    If we are like OTL Russia, we are still using poll tax, hike of which will hit poorest quite seriously.

    Meanwhile, selling off of government assets will benefit those who buy it or participate in capitalist activities - so, bourgeoisie and nobility (assuming nobility leverages land holdings to get rich, as they likely do).


    I mean, maybe it's not the case, but it really depends on what "Raise Taxes x3" means narratively.


    For bonus points, recall that the revolt previous turn was explicitly due to people feeling ignored and due to pollution.
    To which we respond...with increasing taxes and increasing pollution.
    I am sure this is a follow-up which will have no narrative weight at all, right? :thonk:
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    I interpreted it this way:

    Generally increasing spending costs SoL because it entails raising taxes. the Raise Taxes action is specifically spending money on industrial stuff (like buying equipment from other countries instead of building it ourselves) It involves a decrease to SoL because all spending is an increase in taxes and therefore a decrease in SoL because we don't have the ability to debt finance or run a permanent deficit yet.

    By selling Crown Corporations, we gain money, and thus can lower taxes, increasing SoL.

    By doing them both at once, we're basically raising taxes to fund industrial development, and then at the same time selling government assets to fund tax cuts. So I believe* that we'll be effectively skipping the raising taxes part.

    *just want to emphasize that I'm not certain.
     
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    8bitBob said:
    @Academia Nut To be extra clear, is Corn's plan valid for this turn?

    [][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1840
    -[][Agenda] Develop Industry - 0 PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 1, -1 Temp IC (One Use per Turn)
    -[][Agenda] Develop Industry - 1PW: Increases IC and Active Development by 2, -2 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Sell Crown Corporation (0/13) - 0 PW: +1 temp SoL (Usable once per turn)
    -[][Agenda] Sell Crown Corporation (0/13) - 1 PW: +2 temp SoL
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Raise Taxes - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +1 Temp IC
    -[][Agenda] Develop Transport Infrastructure - 0 PW, -3 Temp IC, +1 Max Development
    -[][Agenda] Increase Navies - 2PW: Increases Navies by 1, -1 IC
    -[][Agenda] Reduce Food Prices: 1 PW (-3 Temp Trust, -1 SoL, +2 Trust)
    -[][Agenda] Accept Khemetri Population: 0 PW (+1 temp Militancy, +1 temp Consciousness, Kyberi Settlement action, Conservatives neutral, Liberals pleased)
    -[][Agenda] Diplomatic Outreach - 1 PW: -1 Temp SoL, +2 Temp Trust (Propose a sale of weaposn to the Civilized Tribes of Mahaxia)
    -[][Agenda] Acknowledge Civilized Tribes: 0 PW (-5 Prestige, Royalists angered, Liberals pleased)
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    for the last time, YES. AN even did some clarification in the post above yours.
     
    8bitBob said:
    To be extra clear, is Corn's plan valid for this turn?
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    I see no issues with the plan.

    Yeangst said:
    By doing them both at once, we're basically raising taxes to fund industrial development, and then at the same time selling government assets to fund tax cuts. So I believe* that we'll be effectively skipping the raising taxes part.
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    Pretty much. I am working out what exactly the narrative is to be, but that is more or less what is happening.
     
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