Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

Also, no. That "wooden sword" can have an edge at a nanometer, or even one atom with a diamond support lattice. It'll carve through any mechanically made steel sword.
I think you misunderstood my shitty comparison.

Rather than adding nanomachines to a biological arm, why not just say screw it and build an entire new arm specifically designed to use the nanomachines in the most efficient way?
 
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Also, no. That "wooden sword" can have an edge at a nanometer, or even one atom with a diamond support lattice. It'll carve through any mechanically made steel sword.
Also not how any of this works. Nanometer edges (or say, a actual monomolecular edge) is also not some kind of magic cut-all. Obsidian naturally fractures to a monomolecuar edge for example, its why the stuff was used for surgical tools before we got modern scaples. Its the sharpest thing on the planet. It cannot however, slice through say, wood, because it will fracture. It also dulls really fast.

Sharpness does not matter past a certain point, and it doesnt simply slice molecular bonds apart because its one molecule (or atom) thick. Thats really not how any of this stuff works. The force behind the swing and the geometry of the edge, all matter alot more than if the edge is one or three or a dozen atoms thick.

Also, again, if you give the wooden sword a diamond hard mono-edge... then the steel sword can also have a diamond hard mono-edge... and between the two it would win because it has a more durable material base, weight, and getting through the reinforced steel would be harder than getting through the reinforced wood.
 
Actually, isn't it me and the others on the top who have a changed vote? Haven't changed it, at least for now. @Silently Watches, would you mind clarifying so that we don't mess everything up by accident? Again?
Those rules are specifically for votes regarding activities for the next week. It's why that post is threadmarked as "Weekly Activity Votes".

There are a couple of slightly different votes right now, but they will not be difficult to merge.
 
[X] Medium combat arm – Armor plating is limited to the hand and forearm as well as over the shoulder. Enhanced strength and mechashift weapons are available in the hand only. Energy weapons can be wherever. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery.
 
Also, again, if you give the wooden sword a diamond hard mono-edge... then the steel sword can also have a diamond hard mono-edge... and between the two it would win because it has a more durable material base, weight, and getting through the reinforced steel would be harder than getting through the reinforced wood.
We're arguing cyberware vs nanoware. if you're not using nano-tech, it likely doesn't matter, given how hard mono-edges are to make. Steels durability is less than the carbon nanotubes I'm using to modify the "wooden" sword, so the base material actually has the mobility advantage of being lighter and easier to wield.
Also not how any of this works. Nanometer edges (or say, a actual monomolecular edge) is also not some kind of magic cut-all. Obsidian naturally fractures to a monomolecuar edge for example, its why the stuff was used for surgical tools before we got modern scaples. Its the sharpest thing on the planet. It cannot however, slice through say, wood, because it will fracture. It also dulls really fast.

Sharpness does not matter past a certain point, and it doesnt simply slice molecular bonds apart because its one molecule (or atom) thick. Thats really not how any of this stuff works. The force behind the swing and the geometry of the edge, all matter alot more than if the edge is one or three or a dozen atoms thick.
The part where Obsidian fractures as it cuts through anything more durable than it doesn't apply to weaving carbon nanotubes through a bokken and giving it a mono-edge. Bad comparison. All you have right is that a mono-edge doesn't cut through molecular bonds and that glass fractures rather easily.
 
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We're arguing cyberware vs nanoware. if you're not using nano-tech, it likely doesn't matter, given how hard mono-edges are to make. Steels durability is less than the carbon nanotubes I'm using to modify the "wooden" sword, so the base material actually has the mobility advantage of being lighter and easier to wield.

The part where Obsidian fractures as it cuts through anything more durable than it doesn't apply to weaving carbon nanotubes through a bokken and giving it a mono-edge. Bad comparison. All you have right is that a mono-edge doesn't cut through molecular bonds and that glass fractures rather easily.
Again, if you can put nanotubes into wood you can put them into metal. They make things more durable. If the base is more durable to begin with the results are better. There is no situation where a organic object augmented with nanoware would be better than a machine augment made with the same level of technology. You cannot claim that your position gets to weave nanotubes through organic matter but for some magic reason they cannot be woven through pure metal, and more easily, and for better results. You can continue to give examples and ill just continue to point out that any technique you imagine can be better applied to cyberware. No matter how many times we do that dance the results are not going to change. Thats what ive been saying from the start, and claiming that i cant use nanoengineering techniques to make cyberware is ridiculous... since thats my whole point. Any application of nanotech to biology will pale in comparison to any similar application of nanotech to cyberware. I've all but spelled that out in every post I've made on this subject.

The idea of 'augmentation through nanotech strengthening organic systems is superior to augmentation through the wholesale removal and replacement of organic systems with technological ones' is the subject of this kerfuffle. Its what was said and what i originally replied to.

My point in short, is that any augmentation that you can apply though nanoware to the human body can easily be superseded by applying those same engineering techniques to a actual cyberware augmentation, chopping the bit off, and bolting the new one in place. In addition, that doing it this way is much simpler, safer and cheap, producing results that are not just better, but more robust and reliable, as well as being easier to repair and replace.

Imagine if you will; nanotubes woven through materials increase durability. The way this would be done in a industrial setting is probably going to be similar to asbestos and fiberglass techniques (since they are all based on the same idea of impregnating a material with microscopic structures to improve durability), which amounts to a specialized spray nozzle that coats materials with it during production (such as splaying it into still molten metal before its allowed to fully cool, or around a form to create a pure nanotube structure). Do you truly believe that building billions of microscopic machines to weave nanotubes through your skin, muscle and bones without killing you in the most horrific way is going to be simpler, cheaper or safer than building a robotic arm out of nanotube-ed materials in a factory and bolting it to your body with routine amputation or organ removal (both things we have alot of practice with) and a few bone screws? Do you believe that the result of a nanowared organic arm will be better than a machine built with the primary design directive of 'being better than a human arm in every way' using the same level of tech, nanotech and engineering? Do you think it would be stronger? Faster? More durable? What if it breaks? The cyberware can be detached and a new one put in the same place even more easily than the original was put there. Most likely youd just unscrew the arm and put a new one in the same socket, but even if you have to replace the whole socket doing so will be easier than the surgery to put the socket there to begin with. With the nanoware arm? Hell, youd have to scrub out all those broken nanotubes without destroying everything they are attached to, or the arm its self and fix all the genetic damage caused by those jagged spars of carbon piercing cell nuclei, or just set the broken bone and put more nanotubes to build a internal cast until it heals? Hell that sounds like a mess, its not impossible to be sure, but again... cost, simplicity, safety. Results.

So between the two? Cyberware wins out because anything nanotech can do to a person, it can do better to a machine.
 
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That's your subjective conclusion, imo.
Well, I mean, its not like I wrote out paragraphs explaining the logic and processes involved or anything. But no, no, its just my opinion. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Science aint subjective, neither is engineering. You can say you would prefer to be filled with more girders than the Eiffel Tower and accept that loss of ability of the sake of maintaining some tenuous connection to your original flesh, or perhaps just a general dislike of surgery. The subjective reasons to reject cyberware replacement are innumerable and even I would never suggest forcing it on someone who didnt want it.

But theres nothing subjective about my conclusion. Wanting it is subjective, pointing out the capabilities and relative merits is not.
 
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Your conclusion IS subjective, because as you stated earlier, your axiom is that the flesh itself is the problem, not a feature; but a bug.

The best use of Cyberware is Power armor, not cyborg surgery. Which is my subjective conclusion.
But his point wasn't that cyborg surgery is the best use of Cyberware, but that Cyberware beats out nanoware on that front. I don't doubt he agrees that power armor is the better use.
 
But his point wasn't that cyborg surgery is the best use of Cyberware, but that Cyberware beats out nanoware on that front. I don't doubt he agrees that power armor is the better use.
He literally said it earlier in our conversation. The flesh is the problem. In this scenario, cyborgs or more probably the singularity, is a good replacement for humanity itself.
The nature of nanotech is that the benefits scale up and compound, what nanotubes can do to flesh is nothing compared to what they can do to a tungsten plate. While your trying to justify a nanoware transhuman... Ive built their replacements. This applies even to Tinkers and magictech. If they can do something amazing at the nano scale... they can use that same technique to do something even better at the macro scale. Nothing that can ever be injected into a person, to change them from within, will ever be as good as something crafted to purpose without wasting time and effort trying to emulate (or even interact with) silly biological processes. As if those were something sacred and not part of the problem.
 
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He literally said it earlier in our conversation. The flesh is the problem. In this scenario, cyborgs or more probably the singularity, is a good replacement for humanity itself.
Those are still points specifically against augmenting flesh versus prosthetics. Why chop off a perfectly good arm when you could just armor it instead? Nanoware implants are simply the worst of both worlds. Both of those points, in fact, seem to imply Android Superiority at their core.
 
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Those are still points specifically against augmenting flesh versus prosthetics. Why chop off a perfectly good arm when you could just armor it instead? Nanoware implants are simply the worst of both worlds. Both of those points, in fact, seem to imply Android Superiority at their core.
...Transhuman enhancements, you can walk around civilian and use them. Power armor, even if all you have is a mobility boost, you cannot. Even in Shadowrun you only get away with this as a fixer, a criminal or an on duty security officer with a good backer. Same with warhammer, its little cousin starcraft and Marvel/DC comics. Cyborgs, you need messy surgeries, if it's not obvious its comparatively useless, and while not as Leudicrous as what Ive seen in the Dues Ex wikis (never played the game) there is a not insignificant chance of rejection. With Nanoware, only in the most ridiculous scifi is it obvious, notably harmful to your body or paired with some sort of inconvenience and it offers nearly as many advantages as Power Armor or Cybor enhancement, just with some sliding of the window of abilities... for each of the three options.

That is, unless you're including Gundum Jaeger and Evangelion style shit to the Power Armor classes, then even with non-bullshit science fiction power armor just completely outweighs the other two. And yes, that was a double entendre.
Adhoc vote count started by Solusandra on Mar 18, 2018 at 4:05 AM, finished with 104 posts and 43 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Solusandra on Mar 18, 2018 at 4:05 AM, finished with 104 posts and 43 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Solusandra on Mar 18, 2018 at 4:07 AM, finished with 104 posts and 43 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Solusandra on Mar 18, 2018 at 4:08 AM, finished with 104 posts and 43 votes.
 
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Transhuman enhancements vs. Power armor refer, for us right now, to different build aesthetics which have different technological requirements.
In this particular case, Missy can have the setup necessary to use obviously-enhanced combat arm which is beyond our ability to build as something subtle, but then still wear a non-obvious arm for any situation where looking normal or subtle is a priority.

As for the nanotech vs. cyberware debate: It may be helpful to remember that it's not about 'nanotech vs. cyberware' precisely. It's about 'nanotech applied to the biological default base, or to technologies which deliberately mimic those methodologies' vs. 'nanotech applied to a cyberware base with an optional outer layer that appears to be the same as the biological default base'.
Essentially, biological systems have been 'okay' for a long, long time, and that means that they have some useful traits. But the advantage of intelligence-directed science over evolution is that we can continue searching for 'better' instead of 'good enough to breed', so cyberware is going to have the advantage simply because if there is a case where the biological default is better... by the time we've got nanotech, we can mimic the biological stuff and so the cyberware just includes that.

EDIT: Oh say, since I'm posting I ought to vote too.
[X] Medium combat arm – Armor plating is limited to the hand and forearm as well as over the shoulder. Enhanced strength and mechashift weapons are available in the hand only. Energy weapons can be wherever. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery.

My reasoning for this is that our choice isn't just about 'What arm does Vista want?' but also about 'How transhuman does Vista want to go?'
The Medium arm is clearly transhuman, but not an abandonment of the human form - that's a good place for Vista to be. To pursue transhumanism with everything in the social context Vista/Missy exists in... That implies other things about her that maybe aren't so good - things like hating herself for being 'weak' or hating the protectorate for 'restricting her'.
Speaking on purely transhuman or purely practical grounds, the Heavy arm is what I consider best. But it's going to be much more psychologically healthy for Vista to work up to those kinds of changes, because she - and perhaps her shard - are already too prone to discarding pieces of her old life when pressed even when doing so isn't helpful.

But really, any of Light, Medium, and Heavy sound good to me. Her arm is modular for a reason, so it's not like she needs to walk around with one arm in Knight In Shining Cyberarmor plates all the time unless she wants to. And given the mechashift technology being developed, well - it probably won't be long until she has a transforming arm. And from there Missy will become a cybernetic magical girl complete with transformation sequence! (Remember that normal people can provide computational power and direction to spells, too - Missy has no mana-gathering capability, but we should keep an eye out for implants that would let her be a partner for spells.)
 
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Don't mind me just changing my vote.

[X] Medium combat arm – Armor plating is limited to the hand and forearm as well as over the shoulder. Enhanced strength and mechashift weapons are available in the hand only. Energy weapons can be wherever. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery.
 
[X] Medium combat arm – Armor plating is limited to the hand and forearm as well as over the shoulder. Enhanced strength and mechashift weapons are available in the hand only. Energy weapons can be wherever. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery.
 
[x] Heavy combat arm – Armor plating over the entire arm and shoulder. Enhanced strength, mechashift weapons, and energy weapons can be placed anywhere on the arm. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery, and this arm will have one fewer weapon than the others would.
 
Been lurking here for quite a while but now, I'm going to chime in a little bit.

[X] Medium combat arm
– Armor plating is limited to the hand and forearm as well as over the shoulder. Enhanced strength and mechashift weapons are available in the hand only. Energy weapons can be wherever. Build time will include ONE TIME SLOT for surgery.

The heavy option just reminds me too much of Gunslinger Girl even though they're totally unrelated, sorry.
 
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