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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Arbit said:
Why the change to partition the Tortun lands?
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Hm.
Fair I guess?
I mostly do not like ConCon now, as opposed to on Main turn; seems like we can do more if we do ConCon with, like, 6 or 8 PW.
Maybe we will be able to get Wyrmyn folks full rights along with two core ethnicities, or start chipping away on serfdom.


[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

lol
bank 3 PW
get ~5(?) at main turn
go into ConCon with all those PWs
 
ctulhuslp said:
Hm.
Fair I guess?
I mostly do not like ConCon now, as opposed to on Main turn; seems like we can do more if we do ConCon with, like, 6 or 8 PW.
Maybe we will be able to get Wyrmyn folks full rights along with two core ethnicities, or start chipping away on serfdom.


[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

lol
bank 3 PW
get ~5(?) at main turn
go into ConCon with all those PWs
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Hmm, yeah waiting a year on the convention does give us more PW to play with and some time in which the guild issues become clearer.

Changing my vote again.

[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
tryrar said:
@Cornuthaum actually AN has clarified that 4pw isn't quite enough to shatter the guilds. If we do the constitutional convention now, we're going to be forced to make some compromises to get the PW neccessary to do it, and we might not like the compromises we need to make. On the other hand, he's also stated that any roadblock to a CC has been removed so we can do a CC this upcoming turn with more PW than right now, so we can cut down on the compromises we need to make. I'd rather go for the crown corps for now, then CC as soon as the turn starts.
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Better to make compromises than lose more time to the guilds.

We need to industrialize or we will get run over. We have a phenomenal amount of hinterlands to develop that we need huge piles of IC for, IC we can't get with the guilds still in power.

It's not going to be great but it gets this goddamn issue dealt with. We can iteratively improve afterwards.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Better to make compromises than lose more time to the guilds.

We need to industrialize or we will get run over. We have a phenomenal amount of hinterlands to develop that we need huge piles of IC for, IC we can't get with the guilds still in power.

It's not going to be great but it gets this goddamn issue dealt with. We can iteratively improve afterwards.
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Or, you can wait for two years and do a good constitution without any compromise in it.
 
agumentic said:
You are trying to get a new constitution with 4 PW. It's pretty much the worst of both worlds.
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No, I specifically only want to touch the Guilds issue of the constitution - a special convention of the Constitution, not a full-scale iteration of our constitution. Realistically we shouldn't have to reform the entire constitution to deal with a part-issue, nor indeed have to call a full constitutional convention to pass a temporary amendment to our constitution.

But if against all logic we do have to do so, then... idk, I can't understand what logical chain of events in character would cause this to happen. I can't model off of nonsense.
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

I am a bit split on it but we only really have one chance to split the tortuns. They might reform in a generation but that is about 25 years and in that time I think we will be ready (thought I would like to point them towards someone else).
 
[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

Now, this is the sort of vote I can finally get behind. No half measures.

Though a part of me does want to ignore the guild issue and reject the peace proposal. Let Tortun burn.
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

I am convinced on the Early Modern Logic issue, but not on the Peace and Guilds options.
 
Cornuthaum said:
No, I specifically only want to touch the Guilds issue of the constitution - a special convention of the Constitution, not a full-scale iteration of our constitution. Realistically we shouldn't have to reform the entire constitution to deal with a part-issue, nor indeed have to call a full constitutional convention to pass a temporary amendment to our constitution.

But if against all logic we do have to do so, then... idk, I can't understand what logical chain of events in character would cause this to happen. I can't model off of nonsense.
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Straight from AN:
Academia Nut said:
With 4 you can probably break the guilds, but it really isn't enough. Then again taking a few more years to let things continue to fester could have negative consequences as well.
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Guilds are not going away easily, and so we can't just do an amendment - and 4 PW is not enough.
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
Cornuthaum said:
No, I specifically only want to touch the Guilds issue of the constitution - a special convention of the Constitution, not a full-scale iteration of our constitution. Realistically we shouldn't have to reform the entire constitution to deal with a part-issue, nor indeed have to call a full constitutional convention to pass a temporary amendment to our constitution.

But if against all logic we do have to do so, then... idk, I can't understand what logical chain of events in character would cause this to happen. I can't model off of nonsense.
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I don't think we have a constitutional amendment process. If so we will need to call a full constitutional convention to pass any amendment to our constitution and it will be more or less creating a new constitution.
Part of the point of a constitutional monarchy is the monarch cannot alter the constitution alone.

In the discord, there is a chance 1 PW option will increase our IC cap. (I can hope, right?)

kiba - Today at 3:50 PM
@Academia Nut is our IC cap going to increase with the new Crown Corporations?
Academia Nut - Today at 3:50 PM
Possibly
 
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]

We're about to conquer not!Poland. We need to sort out our own pan-Ymaryn national identity sharpish
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Arbit on Mar 16, 2018 at 9:02 AM, finished with 164 posts and 71 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Arbit on Mar 16, 2018 at 9:27 AM, finished with 167 posts and 72 votes.
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[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
 
10ebbor10 said:
And what compromise would that be?

There's not many options, and if you don't get rid of the guilds completely they'll stick around way longer, as we can't change the constituion again.
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Devolve further political power to the Upper and Lower houses of parliament in exchange for snapping the neck of the guild issue.
 
I think we should stay out of the Tortun mess. The way it looks right now, both Tortun and Ochruhr are going to be utterly humiliated. If we are seen as part of that, as implied by losing the humiliating defeat status, we just make an enemy iut of the Tortun if they recover as predicted.

So ideally we take custody of Hohenzolyn and treat him with respect, send Outreach at the Tortun duchies and offer them our diplomatic support if they stop being dicks to us and our palls.

Basically, act like responsible adults. (And ideally give the Sketch something to worry about so we are freer to act in Asia.

Worst case we aim the militancy at the Vortun or Nohon.


As for Guilds, losing a few years for a full convention would hurt but several guilds are dissolving themselves already and the Kyberian areas see a lot of people setting up shop. So we lose time, but not too much.
 
[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]
 
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