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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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We're looking to acclimate her to each and every world changing event that has occurred, is occurring, or will occur. We need to slowly introduce her to all of the things we are doing, will do, or have done. We need to slowly introduce her to all the people we have met, she is meeting (and all of their hidden secrets, foibles and eccentricities) and will meet.

Basically the entire... everything. It could take weeks. Maybe she's incredibly adaptive to changing circumstances.

It could take months. I don't actually support going too slow, because this increases the likelihood of something causing her to dig in her heels rather than be forced to confront the face of similar changes to her life and the lives of her family.

Ideally we want her to be, if not totally in agreement with our current direction, at least tentatively supportive of our overall goals.

Then when she sees the merit of our plans, our continued success, and experiences a little stability, she'll come over to us on the AD;AI train on her own.
 
[X] Azel

@Azel, maybe add a bit that she if she holds further concerns after a month in Sorcerer's Deep, we can ask lya to do something impressive destructive?

Fire Wall is probably impressive. :p
 
Snowfire said:
How the hell do I have more votes by name than any of the actual vote-plans produced so far? :confused:
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Because the current plans are terrible, insensitive and risky. And you have a good track record here.
Honestly, I think that the best answer is something like "let's talk about this later" and maybe "hey, I gave Dorne something even better than my hand in marriage!" and then avoid the subject of marriage for now.
 
I think these are the high points of the argument I'd present, whenever it would be suitable to do so. Shamelessly stolen, most of it, but yes.

"Our kingdom is on the rise. The world has changed and established actors are only just beginning to notice; most still cling to old preconceptions. That means we are undervalued. Any sufficiently powerful ally would consider us at best a junior party; at worst, they would be a liability to us, and prevent us from applying our strengths.

"Also, on a practical level, we are sufficiently powerful that our full backing of a single house would cause turmoil across Westeros. With the Others stirring, that would be a concerning development with potentially fatal ramifications.

"In short, there are currently few suitable candidates on the political arena.

"However, if one looks closer at the current political climate, Lya is a different matter entire.

"The return of magic means circumstances are now more akin to the days of the Freehold. We are its closest analogue. The Freehold prized magic above noble birth; Lya would by their reckoning be royalty.

"Lya is apolitical, beholden to no-one save us. This is important because she is not just Lya, but the head of an organization that generates arcane practitioners. She has the mandate to anoint people to the equivalent of magical knighthood.

"Furthermore, she is easily our equal in sorcerous might, and that fact translates into prestige. We would not have as wife an all-too-mortal bird in a gilded cage. We would have a wife who slays demons and restores us back to life, if need be.

"Lastly, we love her beyond reason."


That's the rough notes I'd hit, but probably not right now. It's quite a lot to swallow for someone who's just getting her sea legs. Still, it contains logos on the large scale, connects it to a threat she knows personally, temporizes, offers the parallel to Valyria, then reinforces the idea that allegiances can actually sink you, appeals to her love for Viserys (seriously, "my wife would be able to survive and bring me back from the dead" would be appealing to any mother), and contrasts that with the horror that was Rhaella's own marriage.

When she's digesting that, the argument concludes in sheepish pathos, allowing her to be sentimental and parental about the idea of Viserys in love. Viserys rattling off cold facts is one thing, but facts alone rarely convince people, especially not distraught people.

---

(Again, let me stress that I am with Snowfire on what would be most beneficial as of right now, and it's not the above. She needs a lot more context and settling in before she's ready to fully engage with an argument of this kind. But after that, when she's receptive to calm reasoning, I think this is how I would play things.)
 
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It's interesting to point out, though not entirely important, that Rhaella, going by her interludes, seems to both recognize she's being treated with kids' gloves and, while not resenting that fact, is kind of concerned by it.

In the sort of way that she realizes she cannot deny that it is pretty much necessary. She has not once, even though it is clear Viserys refuses to lie to her because of how much she means to him, asked for him to treat her like he would anyone else... or treat her like Dany. Because she knows that she can't handle it, but also knows she has to adapt and start seeing the reality of things, what changes have occurred, and the opinions of others that, while scary to hear, might bring relief to know the truth of.

At no point are we to take this to mean that being careful is a bad idea, only that when we're being "careful" we should actually have substance to our plans. We need to get her to learn and know these important things, not structure a vote that essentially misinforms or misdirects and allows her to assume the wrong thing.

But being utterly blunt about what we think about things is madness. She has no basis for whether or not these things Viserys plans on are realistic, or the mad ravings of the insane.

And the worst part is, it wouldn't matter if she believed it or not. In some cases having too much "real" dumped on her in blunt terms is worse. She has no way to conceptualize this shit yet. We need to give her the tools so she can build the tools, as it were.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Honestly, I think that the best answer is something like "let's talk about this later" and maybe "hey, I gave Dorne something even better than my hand in marriage!" and then avoid the subject of marriage for now.
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If we hadn't brought Lya, this would be possible. But because we have, and Rhaella's asked us this, we need to give her an answer that isn't just kicking down the road. If I'd pushed harder for her not to have been here, we'd have been able to stave this off for a bit longer, but such is the way of things. Many thanks to @Azel and @Eleas for summarising general feelings and points on the matter, it's going to help my plan-building a lot. Currently in progress on that front, will be up in the next wee while.

Crake said:
We need to give her the tools so she can build the tools, as it were.
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That's basically what I've been trying to do ever since we resurrected her. From the very beginning, it was obvious that she'd need crutches and training wheels to help her on her way back into a world that...how did she put it...was so changed that the sun might rise from the west. I want her to process this stuff, but we have to give her time to build the tools and then develop the willingness to use them. Something a lot of people in the thread don't seem to either understand or be willing to take into account when pushing plans or points of view is that the most important thing in these sort of situations is the willingness of the subject to change. You can't force someone to change their mind, not in this way, at least not when the person is someone close to Viserys and therefore we'd get rightfully vetoed by DP if anyone suggested trying to use magic to twist her reality. This is the flip side of my rejection of Heart's Ease, by the way. It would take away Rhaella's agency, and right now that's all she really has.

Edit: in a traditional counselling environment, this sort of thing would usually take months to fully resolve, if not years. Leaving aside that we're breaking at least three of the cardinal rules of ethics by being her son whilst doing this. So we're going a lot faster than I'd ever consider, but that's mostly because DP has outright stated that there's innate magic in her blood helping her with this. And even then, her coping mechanisms have coping mechanisms.
 
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Again, while I don't entirely agree with Snowfire's planning, his understanding of Viserys is more than sufficient to build a vote which does not lie, but builds upon threads of thought that Mother is able to understand.

The goal here is to give her information to chew on so that she doesn't ask another question too soon.

Too late, and we risk her refusing to change her opinion on how the world should work. That's bad.

Too soon, and she'll crack or break under the pressure.

We need an equilibrium.
 
Let's answer with "How did the Targaryens become Lord? By kicking lots of magical ass, and being recognised as such by the Valyrians of old! Who even had institutional means of recognising powerful sorcerers!"

Rephrase this prettily and tactfully and we have our answer.

@DragonParadox the Interlude where we saw our ancestor fly to power was great!
 
[X] "I understand your confusion, Mother, and forgive your presumption. Lya will not be my mistress. I care for her too much to ever demean her so. I intend to make her my wife, if she will have me."
-[X] "Before you object, let me speak." Gently, but firmly. This is a worldview that needs...readjustment.
-[X] "The world has changed a great deal from what you once knew, Mother. For one such as I, who possesses the power to burn armies and sunder entire fleets with no more than word and gesture, their is little value in a political marriage. Sorcerous power buys allies just as surely, and without half the hassle or intrigue."
-[X] "The return of magic has made the world small. You saw it yourself, how easily I journeyed thousands of miles in an instant, and returned just as quickly. Westeros is but a single continent of a single world, Mother. Why bind myself to a noble daughter from one small province of a small world? I would much prefer sharing all the worlds within my reach with an equal, who can appreciate the splendor of the Planes just as much as I."
-[X] "There is also the matter of my draconic nature. I am on the cusp of a great transformation, one born of our Valyrian ancestry and the magic flowing through my veins, which will prolong my life for centuries, if not millennia, barring accident or injury. Lya is fully capable of making similar arrangements for herself. Would you rather I spend a few decades with a mortal woman, who will soon enough return to the dust of the earth, or one who can stand by my side as I build an empire that would make the Lords of the Freehold weep tears of bitter envy?"
[X] "Consider, too, the terrible enemies I have made in the short time since magic awakened. From us you have learned of but the barest fraction of what truly lurks in the darkness, Mother. Beings unlike any you could ever imagine already have designs on my life, and the lives of my friends. Such is the price for protecting the world from their ceaseless predation. I do not need a helpless wife to serve as a target of opportunity for any creature that bears a grudge against me. A powerful wife loyal to me through bonds of love and mutual respect, who can defend our future children just as surely as I, will be of far greater worth than any noble's daughter bound by duty or greed."
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Let's answer with "How did the Targaryens become Lord? By kicking lots of magical ass, and being recognised as such by the Valyrians of old! Who even had institutional means of recognising powerful sorcerers!"

Rephrase this prettily and tactfully and we have our answer.

@DragonParadox the Interlude where we saw our ancestor fly to power was great!
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Something like this? I like my other approach better, but I can see the appeal of this kind of argument.

[X] "You misread the situation entirely, Mother. Lya will not be my mistress. I care for her too much to ever demean her so. I intend to make her my wife, if she will have me."
-[X] "Do you think the Targaryen family was always prominent within the Freehold, that we have been the equivalent of nobility since our ancestors were little more than shepherds? Through arcane means, I have the memories of the first Targaryen to ascend to the heights of power in Old Valyria. His family? Craftsmen of little note."
-[X] The Forty Families became such not through force of arms or noble breeding, but through the power and skill of their founding members, reinforced by their heirs in each following generation. By that measure, one such as Lya would have founded her own dynasty, and more likely than not shaken the foundations of the world. You don't make a woman like that into a mistress. You crown her as queen."
 
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Thing is, my patience for the Raella cuddling is wearing thin and policy is something where she her opinions don't matter anyway.
 
[X] Goldfish

I like that approach best.
Our oldest human ancestors got a Dragon to sleep with them by offering freedom from a magical prison.

Generations later they fought and overthrew the Dragons by magic.

Then the first named Targaryen claimed his title by magical prowess alone.

Then Aegon conquered Westeros by the power of Dragons.

@Goldfish
I think that's our best available narrative, though I'm sure Duesal would remember more relevant interludes.
 
Artemis1992 said:
[X] Goldfish

I like that approach best.
Our oldest human ancestors got a Dragon to sleep with them by offering freedom from a magical prison.

Generations later they fought and overthrew the Dragons by magic.

Then the first named Targaryen claimed his title by magical prowess alone.

Then Aegon conquered Westeros by the power of Dragons.

@Goldfish
I think that's our best available narrative, though I'm sure Duesal would remember more relevant interludes.
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Okay, works for me, I guess. Anything is better than more coddling of Rhaella.
 
It strikes me that despite all this justifiable praise being heaped over Lya, it is never actually addressed at her.

I'm curious to know how she'd react to Viserys enumerating her virtues and waxing absolutely lyrical.
 
Goldfish said:
Something like this? I like my other approach better, but I can see the appeal of this kind of argument.

[X] "You misread the situation entirely, Mother. Lya will not be my mistress. I care for her too much to ever demean her so. I intend to make her my wife, if she will have me."
-[X] "Do you think the Targaryen family was always prominent within the Freehold, that we have been the equivalent of nobility since our ancestors were little more than shepherds? Through arcane means, I have the memories of the first Targaryen to ascend to the heights of power in Old Valyria. His family? Craftsmen of little note."
-[X] The Forty Families became such not through force of arms or noble breeding, but through the power and skill of their founding members, reinforced by their heirs in each following generation. By that measure, one such as Lya would have founded her own dynasty, and more likely than not shaken the foundations of the world. You don't make a woman like that into a mistress. You crown her as queen."
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I think that has too many justifications based on the Valyrian perspective. Pointing out that Lya has more going for her as a mage of great power and the backbone of our magical research division would go further I think. Plus we can tell her about all our plans regarding Westeros when we can be more certain the walls don't have ears.

I really don't want us to bring up anything regarding Dorne while we're here. Let's be careful folks.
 
Helo89 said:
I really don't want us to bring up anything regarding Dorne while we're here. Let's be careful folks.
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We don't have a choice. It's the only way to assuage the dynastic concerns that she'll raise and be justified (in her own mind) in doing so. We can't just dismiss those, and it would be utterly out of character for Viserys to do so to his own mother. She isn't always right, but he's not going to be willing to just tear down her reality around her.
 
I understand why you interpreted it that way DP, but saying Hearts Ease would be a 'first step on the road to recovery' from insanity makes about as much sense as saying Heal would be a 'first step on the road to recovery' from physical injury.

I totally get that it makes no sense irl, but a lot of things about D&D mechanics don't so I'm not sure why this spell is so different from its description?

Also, earlier in the thread you said it wasn't ' mind control' but: "Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]"

It sort of is exactly that.
 
Snowfire said:
We don't have a choice. It's the only way to assuage the dynastic concerns that she'll raise and be justified (in her own mind) in doing so. We can't just dismiss those, and it would be utterly out of character for Viserys to do so to his own mother. She isn't always right, but he's not going to be willing to just tear down her reality around her.
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Then don't dismiss her concerns. Say I am well aware of the various political concerns regarding my decision and I assure you, mother, that I have taken steps to rectify the situation. Steps I will share in their entirety when we are back in the Deep.
 
Helo89 said:
Then don't dismiss her concerns. Say I am well aware of the various political concerns regarding my decision and I assure you, mother, that I have taken steps to rectify the situation. Steps I will share in their entirety when we are back in the Deep.
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I think maybe we should let her voice those concerns herself, then respond to them by deflecting just as you suggest. We can just tell her to wait until we're back in SD.
 
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