fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We have alot of lords of Evil in DC (demons devil, ect). Do we have any lords of Good?
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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- Canada
Considering Klarion wanted the helmet, that seems like a good way to cause a very bad event.
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- Location
- West Michigan
There were some Lords of Justice for a while. That's close enough, right?
backgroundnoise
Getting Too Old For This...
- Location
- The Shadowlands
And once again Nabu refuses to be even remotely reasonable. You know, for a being of Order he sure seems to like conflict and awful lot.
- Location
- Canada
He's like a stone unchanging and uncaring. Trying to be reasonable with the Knight Templar is almost always a waste of time anyway.
Sadly, most works don't explore that and equate them. The only show I can think of that had chaos = good and order = evil is Tru Calling, and it got cancelled before they could explore that concept.
That said, a promise of consideration from a Lord of Order is most likely a promise of actual consideration, not like when your parents say they'll consider getting you a puppy if you get good grades.
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- Location
- Massachusetts
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This was basically what happened in canon, wasn't it? I mean, the only real glimpse we got into the League's reasoning in Agendas for keeping him around was when Nabu relayed a message from Zatara, saying that he wanted Doctor Fate to remain in the League specifically so that they could keep an eye on him.
(I don't remember whether or not any explanation has been given or even put forth in WTR, though, so it might be different here. Having trouble thinking of any other believable reason, though.)
...
Also, I'm a bit surprised Paul didn't go for a productivity-related argument with respect to Nabu: putting Fate into a golem body means that both he and Zatara can be in the League, and given how light the League is on magic users, turning one of them into two really would be a net positive.
I mean, obviously that's not really why Paul wants Nabu out of Zatara's body, and it certainly wouldn't sway Nabu. But given that this whole meeting is about helping League members be better and more productive at their jobs, I was still kind of expecting it to be an argument he'd bring up.
We see little of it in canon, however in Season 2 Fate and Zatana seem to be on speaking terms which implies some sort of arrangement we aren't aware of.
- Location
- Kansas
Trying playing some of the Shin Megami Tensei games. Both the Law and Chaos endings in those games can in some ways be called evil. Both of these endings are examples of what happens when Law or Chaos goes out of control: Absolute Tyrannical Order, or Complete Unrestrained Anarchy, Might is Right. The closest thing to a good ending in those games are the neutral path, but that is usually just returning things to the way they were before things went to hell. (Literally in some sense.)
This just means that he is willing to discuss the idea in a calm and rational matter once a Lord of Chaos has been removed, until then don't bother me.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
SMT and Tactics Ogre both have Lawful=/=Good pretty heavily. SMT has full on Evil YHVH while TO has starting a false flag massacre of a ghetto as the "lawful" choice because you're following the orders of your liege. People who though Law=Good and played TO blind got a little upset at that decision, which was pretty fun.
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
I think it was something Zoat said in comments when someone asked why Dr. Fate was not on a mission where he could be useful, not something said in the story itself.
That is not how the law works, or Order for that matter. In the Law, if someone kidnappers a young girl and keeps her locked up in a hidden basement as a sex slave and broodmare, something that actually happened, there was no cost benefit analysis of whether the man who did this did enough good to society at large to be allowed to keep her as a slave. That is a Chaotic argument, that someone is useful enough to be allowed to do what he wants, and the ruler don't matter.
Or look as Paul. Nabu has decided he is a filthy Chaos Worshiper. But, he is not really. The Paulphidian was a bit from an outside perspective, but Paul is trying to be a force for progress, and moreover, is going about it in a very methodical, orderly way. If Order was really that utilitarian, Nabu would not have the hateboner for Paul that he does.
Sorry, bad form there. I think you need to prove that point somehow to use it as a given in debate. From what I see, Nabu has diverged from the path of Order, due to events related to being put on a shelf for several decades.
And yet, if anyone ever deserved to be "New 52'd," Nabu does.
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Okay, you think Nabu has diverged from the path of Order. He and the single other Lord of Order who has shown up so far in the story disagree. Out of the three of you, I would expect them to know more about what exactly Order means than you. Since they're Lords of Order. That's really all there is to it.
It's a non-standard, non-human mindset. It is whatever it is. We can't logic it into being something else. If by our logic Order means something else, then we're using the wrong definition of Order.
It was a book series not a show, but the Time Master trilogy by Louise Cooper had an interesting take on it. It wasn't so much that Chaos was Good and Order Evil; both were rather neutral. But, Chaos had the virtue of being capable of change, of being persuaded that compromise and coexistence with Order was actually desirable. Which was certainly desirable from a human standpoint, since neither Chaotic warlordism nor an Orderly crusade of purification is desirable from a human perspective.
Fortunately, ring-cleaning ensures that he's a spotlessly clean Chaos Worshiper! So, that's all right then.
- Location
- Kansas
Um, he is a follower of Eris and is very much against the status quo as he is pushing for innovation. That is chaotic to me, but that could just be my perspective.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
I think in the grand scheme of things the fact that Paul has pledged himself to Eris is more or less the main factor playing into Nabu's hatred. Nabu tolerates people who compromise on order for the sake of a greater good -- he may not agree but he doesn't get as aggressive about it as he did with Paul. Paul, however, has made a declaration of allegiance to someone with Chaos as part of her divine portfolio. From that perspective, everything Paul does is tainted and suspect. Anything he does could be a Chaotic trap.
OL's also much more concerned with results than following the rules. Look at how even in that one conversation with the JL he casually suggested to the Hawks that they subvert Thanagarian laws on tech-introduction by "accidentally" leaving out Thanagarian devices where OL could scan them. He says this to the face of an ex-police-officer from the society whose laws he's talking about finding a way around, even.
Now most people, including most of the JL are going to largely give that a pass since he clearly means well. But to a Lord of Order that kind of open willingness to subvert or ignore rules has got to be infuriating.
Also, I suspect Nabu is going to regard long term goal of an OLC as even more chaotic. Not only is that going to cause all sorts of immediate change, but constructively-inclined orange light users probably naturally lean towards chaos in his view. By nature someone running on the orange light and who wants to make things better isn't ever going to be satisfied and decide "that's enough".
Now most people, including most of the JL are going to largely give that a pass since he clearly means well. But to a Lord of Order that kind of open willingness to subvert or ignore rules has got to be infuriating.
Also, I suspect Nabu is going to regard long term goal of an OLC as even more chaotic. Not only is that going to cause all sorts of immediate change, but constructively-inclined orange light users probably naturally lean towards chaos in his view. By nature someone running on the orange light and who wants to make things better isn't ever going to be satisfied and decide "that's enough".
- Location
- Canada
How is that chaotic?
Progress tends to be opposed to order, change unless it leads to a more orderly state tends to be inherently chaotic. The changes might be methodical (which they aren't it doesn't follow the norm in any way or form), but it can't really be called orderly.
The Amazons being isolated made them very orderly and he 'ruined' that for example, it's for the better, but it's not for a more orderly way.
Order and utilitarism aren't really related.
You guys seem to be forgetting that Nabu would have to be completely oblivious to not see Paul's clearly gunning for him. And now he wants Nabu to essentially put himself completely at his mercy, in an untested golem body that was designed by Paul's people? It's clearly designed to sound good for everyone else, just to make him out the bad guy, even.
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We're talking about a character who's less perceptive when it comes to people than the SI.
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Um, he ALREADY had a rather full ring database, likely with better tech then what the Thanagarians have. This is not for his benefit, but for theirs. He could probably produce equipment better then what he is asking the Thanagarians to let him copy. But they would not be trained / specialized on that. Making equipment they are familiar with is him trying to not just walk all over the rules that don't apply to him anyway. Because the law preventing them from using it has no effective purpose other then hamstringing, them due to OL's ring databases and willingness to use them.
- Location
- Canada
You seem to be missing the point, it doesn't matter if he can make better weapons. He's still willing to break the spirit of their law without a second thought because it's convenient. It's not the kind of thing a Order based person would do.
Maybe Paul should use this Terry Pratchett Quote on Nabu:
"According to the philosopher, Ly Tin Wheedle, chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
From: Order Versus Chaos - TV Tropes
"According to the philosopher, Ly Tin Wheedle, chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
From: Order Versus Chaos - TV Tropes
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Paul never made that requirement. He could have asked for the schematics or visited the construction area with fellow League member Aquaman (because he does not trust Paul) and see what all is being made.
He has this preconceived notion about what Paul is, but he is ALSO doing his damnedest to remain as ignorant as possible.
No, the SPIRIT of the Law is already made moot. Laws like that are usually to keep advanced weapons out of the hands of the filthy natives. This is trying to get the spirit and the letter of the law back in sync.
- Location
- Canada
Most of the earth is still primitive by their standards, it just happens to have an abnormal number of metas, the Thanagarian government would very likely be against the two of them letting Paul scan their weapon so Paul could provide them copies if they knew he was planning to do it and would order them to not show them at all.
Just think of all those demon/angel hybrids who are considered vile abominations.
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