With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

[Jackercracks]

Also it kind of seems like Paul is jumping a bit too eagerly at the chance to kill him. I'd quite like to learn his actual motives behind not wanting a different host.

I agree that Nabu is being a right dick about this, but I'm pretty sure Paul still has more plans being worked on now than the golem, which is his most recent plan, so it seems like it's a bit too early to throw in the towel and just murder him. He is far too valuable an asset to just throw away. Plus not killing when possible is generally a good idea if you're a superhero.

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I don't see a way for OL to do that without possibly forewarning Nabu about the plan, which might lead to Nabu instantly attacking OL. The guy is a black box, his thought processes and motivations are opaque.

I recall mention of one, and that it was subtle. It's a bit odd, but the way Paul and Grayven alike both are almost unfailingly polite seems a bit like that's something. They both have the habit of addressing even people they don't like politely (though not always so maybe I'm way off base) and maybe it's a compulsion involving the way they communicate.

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I'm pretty sure that's just him playing up the britishism for the yanks. You guys love it, and us brits know it.

Think about it from a "Law & Order" perspective. Codified, duly enforced Law is one of the most important embodiment's of Order we have.

Like I have said before, Nabu is currently keeping Zatana kidnapped/enslaved. There are laws against this. Is accomplished this by leveraging Zatana's minor daughter as a hostage. There are also laws against that.

By being allowed to do this he becomes a special snowflake laws don't apply to, because his whims triumphed over the orderly agreed to consensus.

So, I am going to have to say Nabu is causing a much worse upheaval of the current order.

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Sounds like motivated thinking. Nabu rights more wrong than a single case of kidnapping/slavery + extortion every single day he goes to work. He is by far a positive if measuring things on the order vs chaos axis. It is when you move onto the rest of human morality that problems crop up.

Just cause you are a order sorcerer does not mean you are a good guy. Just cause you are a chaos sorcerer does not mean you are a bad guy. NABU IS EVIL!

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Nabu is Order. Much like a lawnmower, he acts in a certain way according to the rules that govern him, and either will not or physically cannot diverge from that path. Sometimes that causes good, and sometimes it causes evil, but to Nabu it is only ever Order. He does not care if a chaos sorcerer is evil or not. They are Chaos, and that is far more important.

 

[drvash]

If it's safe to do so, OL should try to save whatever is left of the Helmet of Nabu after he's done destroying Nabu.

Reasons:
=(1)fragments from a vessel that housed a Lord of Order for centuries could be used in spells, potions, rituals, and area-based wards as a focus or material component: Zatanna, Sephtian, Queen Mera, John Constantine, etc.

=(2)Give a piece to Eris as a gift or offering, as she is OL's divine patron. I'd love to have a scene where Eris shows off her new bling to the other Greek goddesses, as half the fun of getting presents is rubbing it in other people's faces.

=(3)Sometimes the pieces of a destroyed magical artifact can be used in creating new enchanted items, and OL is on good terms with Hephaestus and his Amazon disciple Io.

Examples:
In Marvel's live-action "Avengers" movie, SHIELD salvaged the remains of the Asgardian Destroyer automaton to craft an energy weapon that Agent Coulson used to injure Loki.

In Disney's "Gargoyles", Xanatos made the android Coyote 4.0 from the melted down remains of the Cauldron of Life, making it resilient to magical attacks and giving it the ability to hold and trap supernatural creatures.

In "the Dresden Files", the Knights of the Cross wield swords with one of nails used in Jesus Christ's crucifixion worked into their hilts.

Link: Coyote

=(4)For the dryad living in Mount Justice's grove (name???), I know some gardeners and orchard workers will bury old rusted nails and scrap iron to nurture plants that require extra iron oxide in their diet, or to increase soil acidity, or counteract excess salt in the soil, etc.

In MTG terminology, having a grove empowered by the Green further enhanced by Order magic could promote "dual-color mana": White for order, law, and peace, and Green for life, nature, instinct, and evolution/adaptability.

 

[PaperMache7]

I don't, "Want," everything. I've merely come to the conclusion that the premise--in which a person with, as you say, cosmic-tier powers (Without negative mental side effects, might I add--the opposite, if anything) is placed into a setting as low-tier as Young Justice--doesn't interest me.

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Personally it's why I'm hoping he gets another mind altering ring or something of the sort, there's lots of magic out there that can give some degree of power, but affect your mind like the Green, the Red or some Chaos/Order thing. The power increase wouldn't be of much significance, but I'd enjoy having something actively fuck with his mind.

Okay, so (and I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but) what are you still doing in this thread then?

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Well he's supposed to be free to explore space in 3 months so he'll be a lot more likely to meet ennemies similar or above his power level.

Well, I kind of hope that the upcoming assassination plot fails miserably, since Nabu has had every reason to be paranoid for a good while now and our main character strikes me as being in somewhat dire need of being dealt a bitter, crushing defeat. I have half a feeling that the fig leaf of that golem body might have had a slightly better chance of working prior to someone leaving Fate chained in a closet for the lulz.

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Has he ever suffered such a defeat? Doesn't seem to be Zoat style really, even though it'd be great narratively speaking.

Red.. isn't.. exactly rage. Rage is part of it, as is hate, but there's more to it than both. There isn't an entirely accurate single word for it in English. There is in Qwardian, and it translates into English as something like 'the certain need to unmake'.

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In this case it'd probably be a strong enmity.

 

[The_Letter_K]

For the last several updates it's been All Paul, All the Time, and the other characters don't do much but act as props.

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This includes the team that he originally cared a great deal about, which influenced how he used his power.

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On Paul's side, it is like the team does not even exist.

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I'm wondering if that's not on purpose, though? I'm not here to say Zoat is god, or anything, but he has one of the most... intentional(?) writing styles of any fanfic author I've yet seen. The likelihood of him missing something like that isn't great. While there is some prior evidence, ie; the Sphere, that's basically a pet, for all the importance it has. I sincerely doubt Zoat's forgotten to include the main characters of the series.

More likely, in my opinion, this is an effect of Orange Light, and will be addressed in a later update. OL is being pulled by so many 'wants' that he's gradually letting his friends slip away without realizing. You see it in driven people all the time, sadly. I expect we'll see a huge breakdown when it comes to light, since it's rather antithetical to Paul's general position.

Alternatively, Paul goes where he's needed, and this Nabu arc is stretching on a bit too long to be narratively satisfying, at least, when reading it in the moment, as we are. Keep in mind, Paul, Zatanna, and John are basically a secret rebellion at the moment, and given that this is one of Paul's biggest 'wants', it can't be easy for him to hide it from those he cares about. Better to put them at arm's length, where they won't notice, again leading to a big emotional release, once he realizes what he's doing.


A lot of the conflict in Zoat's story is cerebral. If OL is having a mental problem, we're more likely to notice than he is. I think of OL as an unreliable narrator, in fact, I think of all first-person narrators that way. It's especially a problem in so-called 'rationalist fiction', which I consider this to be. Often, in pursuit of realism, the rational writer eschews narrative conventions that allow readers easier understanding of a situation than the real world does.

(Such as, say, time skips, which normally allow you to focus on only important events and information.)

This naturally leads the story to be more confusing, murky, and unsatisfying over time, as real life can be, if you focus too much on the negatives. People are used to reading stories wholistically, but I don't think that's how these kinds of works are meant to be enjoyed. They're more of a window into someone else's mind, in events that are 'really happening' than they are meant to be enjoyed in a narrative sense. That's still a part of it, but less of a focus.

Was it a mistake to try this kind of story with a self insert, where people are more likely to judge faults as author-wank than anything else? Maybe. I think Zoat's earned a bit more of our respect than that, though.

 

[Ganurath]

A nihilist values nothing.

An ideal Red Lanterns values exactly one thing.

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To crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their women?

 

[finbikkifin]

To crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their women?

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Shoft lavatory paper.

 

[Jetsmillion]

After the meeting:

Batman: "How long have you been planning on trying to get Nabu out of Zatara?"

OL: "Since the night of Roanoke. You?"

Batman: "The same, but I haven't been able to come up with any good solution."

OL: "Well, you have about three months to convince him to change his mind then."

Batman: "And what happens in three months?"

OL: "We exorcise the Lich."

Batman: "..."

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Batman: "Send me the details of the plan and I'll look it over to see if there isn't anything I can optimize to increase the chance of success. Continue the good work" *Batman walks off like only Batman can*

Seems simple to me: Nabu doesn't want to leave Zatara's body because then Zatara will probably be the one to murder him. He did blackmail him using his daughter's safety after all.

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I could see Nabu being worried that if he takes off the helmet Zatara would be so pissed off with him that he would spontaneously manifest a red ring on his finger and rip Nabu's heart out. (To any nay sayer that claims Nabu doesn't have a heart, he is a helmet. Do you really want to try logic on a sufficiently pissed off Red Lantern? After all a Red Lantern that is 'sufficiently pissed off' is as rare as an Ork with 'enuff dakka')

 

[Mr Zoat]

To crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their women?

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To see them utterly unmade. No need to drive them anywhere and no one else's opinion on the matter matters.

 

[Jetsmillion]

To see them utterly unmade. No need to drive them anywhere and no one else's opinion on the matter matters.

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Red Lantern Dalek: "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"

 

[Sixtyforty]

Wow. Never thought I'd see the day when people are saying the SI is the one who needs to be knocked down a peg. Shades of Grayven.

 

[finbikkifin]

Wow. Never thought I'd see the day when people are saying the SI is the one who needs to be knocked down a peg. Shades of Grayven.

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NUKE PAUL (TOO)

 

[iamnuff]

A flicker of empathic vision on the other League members lets me know that I've pushed as far as it would be productive to push at this point.

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At first i took that to mean "pushing this further would make me look bad" and I had to wonder why, when Fate is the one making himself look unreasonable by refusing to even talk about it, like a small fucking child.

On the other hand, it could easily mean "I've already accomplished my goal of showing how unreasonable Nabu is."

If it was the latter, i'd probably be tempted to push a little more anyway. Given how he went from blunt refusals to shouting so quickly, you could probably get him act even more like a cunt by calmly continuing to ask why he's so upset.

 

[Jack Stargazer]

I think people are forgetting some things in the ethical calculus here.

First off, this is worse than kidnapping or slavery. This is possession. This is body horror at its worst level - we know that the wearer of the helmet is conscious and aware the entire time the Helmet is worn. We can assume that Nabu doesn't sleep, so every 3 days is actually 4, an there is no break or rest in the torment of watching your body move without your own direction and being trapped within your own mind.

We've seen that Nabu has no problem renditioning anyone he likes to whatever extradimensional space he wants to keep them in. The ideas of sovereignty and personal rights seem to be little more than polite suggestions to him, as does the rule of law in the sense of the laws of Man, rather than ephemeral Order.

We've seen Nabu's quickness to judge. He hates Constantine and OL for being chaos aligned, despite the potential good they do in the world. I saw someone argue earlier that removing Nabu would end up in a net drop in utility on a global scale compared to his crimes for all the good he does, but because of his own moral code, he might remove people who are likely to accomplish more good than he can. Allowing him the freedom to operate has potential negative repercussions which could vastly outweigh his actual benefit. From what we've seen of his moral code, the only thing that could change Nabu's mind or guide his actions in any way is another Lord of Order. Other than that, he acts according to his own values, which as we've seen justify kidnapping, possession and black-bagging as a matter of course.

This isn't just a case of kidnapping, Nabu is basically a Go'auld, with less genocide.

 

[Bomaz]

9th April
16:10 GMT +1

"Aquaman"

"How come you ranked me lower than the hawks?"

"Your majestys physical abilities are roughly on par with them but you lack the ability to fly and you have chosen to forego the use of any equipment other than your armour in battle"

"Hm..."

"Your offensive capabilities could be improved by the addition of a weapon. If the royal armoury doesn't have anything that suits your needs something could be enchanted for you with both lethal and non-lethal options. Your current armour could do with an upgrade to something with pure orichalcum rather than the impure version your current armour is made of. We can also have the armour allow you to fly as you are currently limited in mobility."

"However while both your offensive and defensive capabilities could easily be improved with some basic equipment it pales in comparison to the fact that you are king of the most magically prominent nation on earth. This should allow you to ensure that all league members have the best magic protections available, the watchtower should be warded by a team of Atlantean battle mages, a set of scrying stones in orbit should allow the league to detect any powerful magic being used and react much quicker. Had this been the case the Roanoke island incident could have been solved in half an hour rather than several hours. Not to mention the ability to augment the leagues capabilities with some Atlanteans would do wonders to disaster relief during floods. Your contribution to the league infrastructure could be similar to Batmans."

"I suggest that you, queen Mera and Batman sit down and go through if and how conservatory of sorcery would be willing to assist the league."

"This would also further your personal goal of closer cooperation with the surface by making more Atlantean used to working with surfacers. Having them seen providing invaluable services to one of earths most high profile organisations will make far more surfacers interested in dealing with you."

 

[Zig]

If it's safe to do so, OL should try to save whatever is left of the Helmet of Nabu after he's done destroying Nabu.

Reasons:
=(1)fragments from a vessel that housed a Lord of Order for centuries could be used in spells, potions, rituals, and area-based wards as a focus or material component: Zatanna, Sephtian, Queen Mera, John Constantine, etc.

=(2)Give a piece to Eris as a gift or offering, as she is OL's divine patron. I'd love to have a scene where Eris shows off her new bling to the other Greek goddesses, as half the fun of getting presents is rubbing it in other people's faces.

=(3)Sometimes the pieces of a destroyed magical artifact can be used in creating new enchanted items, and OL is on good terms with Hephaestus and his Amazon disciple Io.

Examples:
In Marvel's live-action "Avengers" movie, SHIELD salvaged the remains of the Asgardian Destroyer automaton to craft an energy weapon that Agent Coulson used to injure Loki.

In Disney's "Gargoyles", Xanatos made the android Coyote 4.0 from the melted down remains of the Cauldron of Life, making it resilient to magical attacks and giving it the ability to hold and trap supernatural creatures.

In "the Dresden Files", the Knights of the Cross wield swords with one of nails used in Jesus Christ's crucifixion worked into their hilts.

Link: Coyote

=(4)For the dryad living in Mount Justice's grove (name???), I know some gardeners and orchard workers will bury old rusted nails and scrap iron to nurture plants that require extra iron oxide in their diet, or to increase soil acidity, or counteract excess salt in the soil, etc.

In MTG terminology, having a grove empowered by the Green further enhanced by Order magic could promote "dual-color mana": White for order, law, and peace, and Green for life, nature, instinct, and evolution/adaptability.

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Or just melt it down into knives like the actual DC storyline:

 

[CTrees]

If it was the latter, i'd probably be tempted to push a little more anyway. Given how he went from blunt refusals to shouting so quickly, you could probably get him act even more like a cunt by calmly continuing to ask why he's so upset.

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There is another possibility, were Nabu pushed further. That is, "I WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE RAVINGS OF A CHAOS WORSHIPER ANY LONGER!" Followed by teleporting away and effectively leaving the League. If Nabu decides he has little to gain from being a League member, and starts acting ENTIRELY on his own volition? Could be bad. Further, it makes him much harder to access (and trap in London when needed), hampering the current plan to kill him. Depending on what desires OL saw, it could be very unwise to continue to push in unproductive directions.

 

[Coda]

Pfft. Fried demigod? You're too generous, and I can't be fair to him without insulting tofu worse than it deserves.

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To be fair, fried tofu can be REALLY good if prepared correctly.

Wasn't it mentioned by Nabus' superior that box guy that he would be willing to remove Nabu if he wasn't doing his job right as a Lord of Order?

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No, there was a great deal of lawyer-speak involved. Nabu's superior was willing to CONSIDER it if a Lord of Chaos was removed from the equation. But "consider" includes no promises of following through.

 

[Empiricist2]

We've seen that Nabu has no problem renditioning anyone he likes to whatever extradimensional space he wants to keep them in. The ideas of sovereignty and personal rights seem to be little more than polite suggestions to him, as does the rule of law in the sense of the laws of Man, rather than ephemeral Order.

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Yup. Despite inhabiting a human body, he's far more alien than any other alien on the League. It's a strong case of blue and orange morality, or in this case gold and orange. Nabu strives to bring order. While in many cases this overlaps with what the League generally aim for, he honestly has no problem with doing things that most humans would find horrifying. Also, he holds himself as the highest authority, and refuses to hear any contrary opinions to his own. This makes him a prick. I'm not saying it's fully justified for him to be killed, as he probably does do quite a bit of harm prevention globally, but the potential for abuse is high if he decides that the current status quo is too chaotic and takes action against it.

 

[Dr. Bob Doom]

Or just melt it down into knives like the actual DC storyline:

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I swear there's a post there, but I just can't seem to process it.

 

[Jetsmillion]

Actually I would debate about Nabu holding himself as the highest authority. He is a Lord of Order and has a boss. He also may recognize human laws and order, to a limited extent. I bet this is why he joined the Justice League in the first place. It is operating under a UN charter, which could be argued as the highest source of Law on Earth. As that is the source of Order in this world he will fallow the Letter of those Laws, if not the Spirit of those Laws while he is here. And following the Laws of the Land is Orderly, as long as the Land itself isn't Chaos.

I'm betting this might have something to do with why Paul backed down when he was pushing Nabu. If Nabu decides that the highest source of Law and Order in this world has been corrupted by Chaos, who knows what the Lord of Order would do.

Now that I think about it, Paul's mere existence must be causing Nabu a headache. He could be considered the personification of controlled Chaos. Paul is extremely chaotic, but he is an obedient subordinate to the Justice League. A very Orderly organization. With Nabu's Order vs Choas mentality, this would be as confusing to him as righteous Evil would be to us.

Edit: I kind of see Nabu as an Order extremist in the terms of SMT. As long as you are also an agent of order he will fight to the last to support you, but if you are not, he will strike you down with the slightest provocation. He would likely have loved the world Sinestro organized before he was banished from the green lanterns.

 

[Mr Zoat]

At first i took that to mean "pushing this further would make me look bad" and I had to wonder why, when Fate is the one making himself look unreasonable by refusing to even talk about it, like a small fucking child.

On the other hand, it could easily mean "I've already accomplished my goal of showing how unreasonable Nabu is."

If it was the latter, i'd probably be tempted to push a little more anyway. Given how he went from blunt refusals to shouting so quickly, you could probably get him act even more like a cunt by calmly continuing to ask why he's so upset.

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He made Nabu look bad, but Nabu has clearly indicated that he wants to stop talking. Ignoring that clear signal would make the SI look a little bad as well while just looking like he was earnestly trying to help makes Nabu looks worse. The SI will look for other opportunities to undermine Nabu, he just backed off from this particular one.

 

[Mercenary]

*Batman walks off like only Batman can*

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More like
"Alright, do you have a flash... drive?"


*looks around*

Batman is gone.

"How does he keep doing that?!"

"I will not justify myself to you, chaos worshipper."

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Touchy, touchy.

 

[Ophion]

I recall mention of one, and that it was subtle. It's a bit odd, but the way Paul and Grayven alike both are almost unfailingly polite seems a bit like that's something. They both have the habit of addressing even people they don't like politely (though not always so maybe I'm way off base) and maybe it's a compulsion involving the way they communicate.

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"Ah ha! I shall curse this soft-spoken Englishman with the curse of unfailing politeness! It will take years for people to notice something is amiss! Muhahahahahahaha!"

 

[Jetsmillion]

After the meeting:

Batman: "How long have you been planning on trying to get Nabu out of Zatara?"

OL: "Since the night of Roanoke. You?"

Batman: "The same, but I haven't been able to come up with any good solution."

OL: "Well, you have about three months to convince him to change his mind then."

Batman: "And what happens in three months?"

OL: "We exorcise the Lich."

Batman: "..."

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Batman: "Send me the details of the plan and I'll look it over to see if there isn't anything I can optimize to increase the chance of success. Continue the good work"

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"Alright, do you have a flash... drive?"


*looks around*

Batman is gone.

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"Ring scan for Batman"

Unable to detect target Batman

"How does he keep doing that?!"

Prerecorded response: "I'm Batman"

 

[HVulpes]

Paul plots to remove the Helmet of Fate... so he can stick it Klarion to see what happens when a Lord of Chaos is posessed by a Lord of Order.

Also Order =/= Good, just like Chaos =/= Evil.

Which means order has a good and evil side, like chaos has a good and evil side.