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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Blight said:
You just used an absolute when you said "there's no such thing as absolutes". In any case, my words should speak for themselves. Lies are inherently harmful and can come back to bite you in the ass. The Truth is inherently good because it sets you free. You can twist a lie, but you cannot change Truth.

There is an absolute good and evil in the universe. No matter what religion you believe in, what is good and what is evil remain the same.

Well, if I had a child, I certainly would not lie to him about a jolly old elf giving her presents. My mother told me that Santa was fake before I was ten years old, and I was happier for it.
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You're just being pedantic at this point, so let's be more explicit for your sake "actions are not absolutely good or bad there's a gradiant between the two depending on the context". Making pretty sounding sentences isn't actually considered an argument, you'll have to explain yourself with such things as logic and maybe examples for this to be called an argument.

Ok let me say things your way, "There is no absolute good and evil in the universe.", see how what I said can't be argue with because all I'm doing with this sentence is stating an opinion, but acting like it's a fact?

Most kids learn Santa isn't real before 10, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply.
Blight said:
Well, once you can prove that love isn't just sex + close friendship. Oh wait...

Well, I know that God exists because the Catholic church He founded exists and is still going around spreading the Good News. Since God is basically goodness and light and love in the form of an omnipotent being, He would have a pretty good idea of knowing right from wrong. But that's not the answer you would accept is it?

Well, I also know that moral relativism - the belief that all beliefs are valid and equal to each other - is complete rubbish. And if that fact is true, then that means there are some morals all human beings have in common. Could it be that those values - the freedom to worship, the right to live happily and in peace, the right to have something to call your own, the right to be treated with respect and dignity as all human beings should be - are related to an absolute good and evil?
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Here's the things with feelings they're hard to prove, if you want I could explain to you the difference in chemistry between someone in love vs someone who's not, but I feel it wouldn't serve much purpose.

That logic can apply to any cult or religion, so really it proves nothing.

Ok this guy is just arguing in bad faith at this point, what kind of circular logic is "well Y is obviously true because I believe in X". None of those rights are inherent, they're just current western values. If some Saudi Arabia conquered the world tomorow you'd learn how little power your "rights" have in the face of reality, you'd think they're bad and they'd think they're good. It's like you're almost incapable of seeing the world from someone else point of view, no wonder you're having such issues using empathy on fictional characters.
 
I'm thinking this guy is troll, so I'm ignoring him. I think the rest of guys should as well, this conversation has derailed far enough.
 
Bob Saget said:
Calling relationship enthusiasts 'vocal' is misleading, especially as it implies others providing comparatively more subdued input are 'not vocal'. It's more accurate to say the mast majority of the 'overly vocal' members the audience enjoy reading it, while the 'average' audience members undoubtedly have more varied and less positive opinions. Though of course that' only to be expected. The shipping demographic tends to be extremely passionate, expressive, and outspoken.
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You misunderstand the grouping. I'll rephrase.

"Of the people that comment regularly (the vocal ones), the majority seem to enjoy reading about it."

Which is true. I'm not particularly shipping inclined and I still find the relationship aspects amusing. Both from Paul's pratfalls and from the commentary that those create. An informal survey (me, remembering things. Very informal) tells me that quite a few people enjoy this, too.
 
Diceart said:
I'm thinking this guy is troll, so I'm ignoring him. I think the rest of guys should as well, this conversation has derailed far enough.
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True, it's unclear what he is, but he has shown that responding to him isn't leading the discussion toward a constructive path.
Dr. Bob Doom said:
You misunderstand the grouping. I'll rephrase.

"Of the people that comment regularly (the vocal ones), the majority seem to enjoy reading about it."

Which is true. I'm not particularly shipping inclined and I still find the relationship aspects amusing. Both from Paul's pratfalls and from the commentary that those create. An informal survey (me, remembering things. Very informal) tells me that quite a few people enjoy this, too.
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Are those kind of comments something that matters in the first place? I mean they hold little content within and don't produce much in the term of actual discussion (generally). I mean I'm not against them, but they're gonna happen regardless of the story so it's not like there'd be a reason to pander to them.

That said I don't have an issue with this story arc, just against the argument that was made to defend it.
 
Diceart said:
Ah well that explains that. I think we can all agree to safely ignore the ravings of the extremely religious.
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Ah, the sophistication of the atheism. :rolleyes:

Artemisnemo said:
"Moral relativism is the view that moraljudgments are true or false only relative to some particular standpoint (for instance, that of a culture or a historical period) and that no standpoint is uniquely privileged over all others."
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Yeah... that is what makes it rubbish. That's like saying that the beliefs of the Nazis are as moral as your beliefs, or that the beliefs of the Aztecs are moral equivalent of Catholic beliefs.

That's where moral relativism kind of breaks down. You have to accept that some systems of belief are just more moral than others. Having freedom of religion does not make that fact any less true.

Diceart said:
I'm thinking this guy is troll, so I'm ignoring him. I think the rest of guys should as well, this conversation has derailed far enough.
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I am not a troll. I just am tired of people giving me a hard time.

Avernus said:
Not really. I mean, look at the old Thuggee followers of Kali who regarded murder as sacred; that's not exactly going to go down well with Jain pacifists.
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No, you misunderstand.

I mean, no matter what beliefs you believe in, there is an absolute good and evil. If you believe in something like "murder is holy", then you are objectively evil no matter what you think of yourself.

But enough of this, I'm done. If you want to talk about it, do it somewhere else. I have no patience for people who cannot understand my criticism of this story.
 
Dr. Bob Doom said:
You misunderstand the grouping. I'll rephrase.

"Of the people that comment regularly (the vocal ones), the majority seem to enjoy reading about it."

Which is true. I'm not particularly shipping inclined and I still find the relationship aspects amusing. Both from Paul's pratfalls and from the commentary that those create. An informal survey (me, remembering things. Very informal) tells me that quite a few people enjoy this, too.
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That selection bias is much too strong. Those who really enjoy most of the aspects of the story are going to be the ones with the most comments and opinions, typically, because they're really engaged with the story. Those that dislike several aspects of the story, but still like it enough to read it, are much less likely to read it every night and comment on it with regularity or with significant feedback.

You'd have to conduct a weeklong poll before you could begin to make statements about 'the majority' with any sort of confidence. 'Quite a few people' isn't really indicative of anything aside from the opinions of more than a few people, which isn't indicative of much.

Edit: I edited the response you just quoted to be more accurate before I read your response.
 
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Rem Ipsum said:
I'm half-joking.

What friends does he have? The team? They're a bunch of kids, and he's barely interacted with them lately. When he does, it's mostly business or mentoring. He's certainly not keeping up with what they're doing with their lives; Wally caught him off guard with his progress in alchemy IIRC.

At the very least, he doesn't trust them with his problems. Part of this is that he has too many secrets, but he's also on an entirely different level in terms of maturity.
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While i agree he lacks someone to really trust with his problems and secrets, i think you are wrong about the other stuff. Because I believe you are missing something.

Just because we don't see Paul hang out with people it doesn't mean he doesn't hang out with people. Stuff happens of offscreen.
 
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GodKiller999 said:
Are those kind of comments something that matters in the first place? I mean they hold little content within and don't produce much in the term of actual discussion (generally). I mean I'm not against them, but they're gonna happen regardless of the story so it's not like there'd be a reason to pander to them.

That said I don't have an issue with this story arc, just against the argument that was made to defend it.
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In the original context that I brought it up? Yeah. Bob Saget said that Zoat lacked the excuse of an orange ring to be self indulgent. I think that Zoat enjoying writing what he writes is all the excuse that is needed. People liking that aspect of the story just adds to it.
Bob Saget said:
That selection bias is much too strong. Those who really enjoy most of the aspects of the story are going to be the ones with the most comments and opinions, typically, because they're really engaged with the story. Those that dislike several aspects of the story, but still like it enough to read it, are much less likely to read it every night and comment on it with regularity or with significant feedback.

You'd have to conduct a weeklong poll before you could begin to make statements about 'the majority' with any sort of confidence. 'Quite a few people' isn't really indicative of anything aside from the opinions of more than a few people, which isn't indicative of much.

Edit: I edited the response you just quoted to be more accurate before I read your response.
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I did say it was a very informal poll. :V

That said! Weeklong poll starts now.

How do you feel about the shipping levels?

[] The current amount of shipping takes up too much of the story.

[] The current amount of shipping is fine.

[] The current amount of shipping is not enough.

[] Write in
 
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I find Paul's shenanigans in an attempt to get a relationship of some sort amusing, but I don't really want every story post to be dedicated to it. I trust Zoat to give us more than just that and to sprinkle it in when necessary.

I'd argue that Dick's Paul's friend, as are the bulk of the Team, but this is the year or two between seasons too, iirc, a lot happened between them.

@Blight: When 90% of your criticism hinges on a tautological faith based argument with at best, anecdotal evidence, it's easy enough to dismiss. I say this as a person of faith.
 
Avernus said:
Typos: "too" "aren't"
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Thank you, corrected.
Mizu said:
Heh, this was amusing. Why the early update though, Zoat?
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I was awake.
BlackLantern2814 said:
imminent
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Thank you, corrected.
Vaermina said:
So, why didn't he just tell her his actual age?
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The best way to keep something secret is not to tell anyone.
Tylonius said:
@Mr Zoat, will any of the other Team members be going to the wedding? And if they are, how?
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Several of them. Artemis goes to his school and the others can just say 'we met at summer camp' or something.
 
Artemisnemo said:
Well from a purely rational point of view and assuming that you neither feel nor desire close emotional bonds usually inspired by both evolutionary drives and societal conditioning, and that you also lack the empathy to understand the average human. These are some of the benefits to be gained fromantic a close "romantic" relationship.

1. Sex, although most incidentall due to the ease of procuring this through other means it is a benefit and should be listed.

2. A beard, given the standards set above such a person probably suffers from moderate to severe Psychopathyou or a similar mental condition placing themy outside the comfort zones of other humans who as a net whole are very useful.

3. Backup most such relationships will have the other participants willing to help the other with little to no outside incentive besides the relationship itself, this provides a consistent set of help which can be called upon in times of awkwardness or danger.

These are some of the benefits which can be gained from a consistent romantic relationship and I hope help you in your attempts to use human society to your advantage Jaimie.
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From my point of view, the full acceptance of another person is a wonderful thing. Intimacy, in all senses of the word, is very important to most people.
 
Ellf said:
When 90% of your criticism hinges on a tautological faith based argument with at best, anecdotal evidence, it's easy enough to dismiss. I say this as a person of faith.
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Well that's their loss then. I have neither the patience not the wisdom to change their minds.

Still don't understand why Paul lies about his age, but I guess I'll deal with that plot-mandated stupidity.
 
The last few pages of a couple people claiming that Paul was a shallow prick that had no friends and should basically diaf because he wants sex (which you know, is to help him keep his sanity and not become like Larfleeze), and was leading on the girl he has pretty much adopted was an actually funny thing to read! It's like they haven't read the fic at all!

I could add the point that Paul is friends with several of the GL's, especially Guy, Septhian, John Constantine (although I'll halfway agree with Jaime that he can count as -3 friends at times), his team, Teakl, and Green Arrow. I could say that, as far as I could remember, he lied maybe once about how old he was (I actually don't remember Paul actually saying how old he was, Grayven did, but I don't remember Paul actually doing it), and just hasn't corrected anyone else from their misconceptions. Can anyone source where he lied about his age?

But that would be needless, because they are going to read this fic and get the info right correct? I mean they are posting here?

Also, from a purely psychological standpoint, how exactly would Paul convince people he was in his 30's? Even if he said it in the beginning, short of the Lasso of Truth, no one would believe him because a lot of perception of anothers age is based on looks, and he looks like he's in his late teens. The only way Grayven got away with it because he looked like a rock monster at the time.

I for one enjoy the hell out his attempts to woo various females around him, because he's pretty clunky and very.... almost shy about it which I find funny!
 
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