Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Also, there's the fact that, as Thana said, Greek-torture-years are far less bad than Hell-torture-years.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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The Patron godess of Palvos just won the "Follower most able to advance their cause" award for the year!
- Pronouns
- she/her
Is the award an apple? I bet it's a bright orange apple.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Incidentally, he's also her only follower, so...
It's not the SIZE of the worshiper pool, it's the way those worshipers rock the world baby!
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
If "as much strength as can be mustered" means throwing out the possibility of a real discussion, then no. That righteous indignation, "my cause justifies my harsh treatment of others," is, ironically enough, the very attitude that fuels hate crimes. "You are despicable, so I am free to attack you," said every crusader, every Inquisitor, every gay-basher, every Jihadist suicide bomber.
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Can we just not do a political debate and have the thread locked? I would prefer the thread not be locked if that is ok with everyone.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah, wouldn't want to force Zoat to switch to QQ just to keep up his update streak
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
While I'm 100% behind the intent of this post, the crusades weren't anything like as bad as how people talk about them, taken in context.
So, what you're saying is, 100% of her followers are advancing her cause. Other Gods can't say that.
That's a false comparison. "Your opinion is evil and I will not stop telling you so" is rather significantly different than "You are evil and need to be destroyed". Equating "fuck your hate speech" with "fuck you" is just wrong.
I'm not a bigot because I tell bigots to shove off, just like I'm not anti-science when I tell perpetual motion scam artists to stop spreading lies. Not all opinions are of equal value; some opinions are only worth the breath required to refute them.
....First off, in the DC/Vertigo comics, the torment of Hell is ONLY eternal so long as the soul in question seems incapable of accepting responsibility for what they did in life, and letting go of their sins.
Secondly, as a practitioner of a monotheistic faith, I would like add the continuous bashing is getting a BIT out of hand, and I certainly hope the other shoe will drop soon.
If Zauriel, or any of other most well meaning of the Pax Dei DON'T show up after the mass conversions to polytheism start moving into full swing, OR once Hell finally makes its move and invades Earth...
- Location
- United States
Just so we're clear—we all know Thana's not really gonna accomplish much in the way of conversions right? People tend not to abandon their faiths when someone comes up to them and starts going on about the negative implications of the half of the afterlife they don't intend to or believe they're headed to.
Also: "Hell's a horrible place of eternal torment and punishment for the people who end up there?Well...yeah? Isn't that kind of the point of the place—you do wrong in life and you're punished in death? How will that affect me?"
Even if she starts pulling Hades supported magic out the whazoo people will, more than likely, just come to the reasonable assumption that she's a magic user pushing her own agenda—not that she's some divinely sent missionary from a basically dead faith.
Also: "Hell's a horrible place of eternal torment and punishment for the people who end up there?Well...yeah? Isn't that kind of the point of the place—you do wrong in life and you're punished in death? How will that affect me?"
Even if she starts pulling Hades supported magic out the whazoo people will, more than likely, just come to the reasonable assumption that she's a magic user pushing her own agenda—not that she's some divinely sent missionary from a basically dead faith.
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RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
It's not enough to be well meaning. If Pax Dei don't want the conversions, then they can start fixing hell. It ain't the fault of the other religions if people convert to get a better deal. After all, these religions existed for a very long time, with most of the worlds worshippers, and they weren't showing up then.
Zauriel might show up, but I doubt that Paul is going to use those armies, if he did, he wouldn't have spoken against using Lucifer as well.
And yeah, Thana probably would pull off a lot of conversions. Believing something is real, and other things aren't, but never having evidence for it means never really questioning the comparisons.
With evidence of other Gods getting about, especially with the Titan attack in the Atlantic, people would be more open to question inherited beliefs that they only cling to culturally. Most atheists would probably convert, and that's a large number of people.
Zauriel might show up, but I doubt that Paul is going to use those armies, if he did, he wouldn't have spoken against using Lucifer as well.
And yeah, Thana probably would pull off a lot of conversions. Believing something is real, and other things aren't, but never having evidence for it means never really questioning the comparisons.
With evidence of other Gods getting about, especially with the Titan attack in the Atlantic, people would be more open to question inherited beliefs that they only cling to culturally. Most atheists would probably convert, and that's a large number of people.
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- Location
- Australia
The point is not "all viewpoints are okay" its that "you have the right to your viewpoint even if i think its wrong".
100 years ago the public opinion towards same-sex couples was horrendous. It was also the opinion held by a vast majority who would have agreed with your argument, that because everyone disagrees with it it's not a valid opinion and should be disregarded/suppressed.
The public was wrong. That it was an opinion held by a minority made it no less valid and that is a truth we are seeing realised today.
I'm simply asking that people respect that I have the same rights that same-sex couples have been fighting for. Tights that they deserve just as much as I do mine.
Funnily enough, none of the Christians I know believes that hell takes the form of a literal lake of fire. We also believe that the only way you can end up there is by your own actions. That you can't condemn the soul of an innocent child to the aforementioned lake of fire by screwing up a ritual and neither do demons use souls as raw materials to form extra pitchforks to use on the next group to get sent down.
The fact that you are using DC Christianity as something to compare other religion too is exactly why i have a problem with it. It's easy to go "its just fiction it doesn't matter" but it still affects your opinion of it, even if you don't notice. subliminal propaganda if you will. You're not associating Christianity with the faith I believe in, but rather whatever the media or movies or stories shout the loudest and we all know how great they are at accuracy.
Which is what I said was the hypocrisy at the heart of many of these debates. Where one side uses the very rights they have been granted to try to deny others those same rights. People should be allowed to believe what they want. The point where society needs to start stepping in is where people are using their beliefs as justification for the harm they are causing others.
People have the right to their opinion but when they start try to force others to conform to their own views then I'll happily help you shout the intolerant idiots down.
Anyone who has the temerity to walk around calling people "fags" and then call themselves "Christians" should do the rest of us a favour and stop lying to both themselves and everyone else around them. Doesn't matter what they say, it's not showing up at church that makes you a Christian its following Gods will.
I'm sorry you have to put up with such people. Its not right and it goes against the heart of everything i believe
Tried to avoid scripture but this is something that hits right at the heart of my issues with Christianity today. When asked what the greatest commandment was Jesus' reply was first, to wholeheartedly love God which he then immediately follows with this:
Matthew 22:39-40 And the second is like it "Love your neighbour as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
As far as I am concerned its not enough just to just "unhatefully disprove" and any Christian who thinks it needs someone to smack them in the head with their own bible.
Before we start talking about laws or disapproval or "I'm right they're not" What we first need to realise is that on the other side of the debate are people. People who God told us to love and who we often end up hurting far more than we ever could have imagined. Unfortunately like everyone else, we're still human and at times just as ignorant, selfish, self-centred and arrogant as everyone else. Don't make it right but that reality.
If you have kids then I don't care if they're straight or gay. You're their parent, its your job to love and support them even if you disagree. They have the right to make up their own opinion. Sure sit down and discuss it with them ONCE OR TWICE if you want but at the end you give them a hug, say you love them (damn well mean it), let them make up their own mind. Then you let them be who they wish, you invite them around for dinner next week, share a family meal, you accept that you disagree and then you make damn sure that they know you love them either way.
Anyone doing any less than this needs to take a good hard look at themselves. Sure it might not be easy, but the people on the other side of the debate are worth the effort. Its something society as a whole needs to do a lot better at regardless of what the issue is or who's on what side.
No in the western world Christians are generally not subjected to violence (the rest of the world isn't relevant to the discussion). There is however, a degree of constant low level social denigration of the Christian faith. Its an accepted part of society that there is nothing wrong with the occasional joke at Christianity's expense
Think about what Christian character type is most common in books/films. It's not the nice neighbourly person who offers to help you and keep you in your prayers. Its the angry firebrand who's off their head, shouting about blasphemy or preaching on the streets about how God will.
Mrs Sheldon is a loving mother who cares for her family and her faith, a faith which is constantly ridiculed to public applause. The Catholic sign of the cross is used more often as a joke to say "help i'm screwed" than it is as a religious symbol. The Book of Morman, created by the same guys as south park, is a musical that actively mocks the Morman faith.
Think about what Christian character type is most common in books/films. It's not the nice neighbourly person who offers to help you and keep you in your prayers. Its the angry firebrand who's off their head, shouting about blasphemy or preaching on the streets about how God will.
Mrs Sheldon is a loving mother who cares for her family and her faith, a faith which is constantly ridiculed to public applause. The Catholic sign of the cross is used more often as a joke to say "help i'm screwed" than it is as a religious symbol. The Book of Morman, created by the same guys as south park, is a musical that actively mocks the Morman faith.
This is the last post i'm going to give on the topic, we've managed to drift pretty far from talking about a fanfic chapter. Anyone wants to continue the conversation feel free to send me a PM and we can take it there. I'll be happy to talk about it, though im headed to bed so don't expect an immediate reply. Maybe some time to think instead of speak would do us all some good.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Actually, Maxx quite specifically expressed his desire for religious people to kill each other off, and Indophenol's reaction was indeed "How about f*** you?"
So I don't feel like I'm stretching here.
If your attitude is less extreme than theirs, great - but you specifically said that vile opinions must be resisted with as much strength as can be mustered, so...that doesn't sound more moderate?
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Right up until when asked, the world famous and widely trusted Wonder Woman confirms she's exactly who she says she is and she and her god can do everything she says.
Wonder Woman's the obvious person to ask for details about somebody from Themyscira, after all. So it won't take long at all for somebody to do so.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
We're discussing a DC universe. So how about No. You go hold your apologetics debate with someone who gives a shit. In the meantime, the rest of us will continue talking about this DC Universe fanfiction, with people interested in the DC Universe.
- Location
- United States
Wonder Woman's purported origins have been known since, what, the 40's? And people haven't been converting after hearing about/seeing the magical, super strong clay woman given life by a literal goddess who flies around beating up evildoers. I really don't think said woman saying, "Oh yeah, this new girl's with me", will really do all that much to help with conversions.
Best case scenario people go, "Oh, that's neat. The Amazons sent a missionary to spread their faith. I might listen for a bit then go about my day."
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Status Quo and cultural inertia. However this story is all about eradicating status quo, and tossing cultural inertia into the wood chipper, in the name of Eris.
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Okay, when you reply to people can you actually use the reply button?
And just because the story is built around that idea doesn't necessy mean that will happen in this situation or all situations. Like you said: status quo and cultural inertia are definitely things that will affect and missionary work—and the Greek Pantheon has been on the outs for a long time. Also it's a bit hard to make inroads for your faith when the average person will just remember all those stories about the gods being huge jackasses to mortals.
Interesting. So in effect, DC Hell is an argument in favor of authoritarianism and slavery. The message here is human beings can't be trusted with their own eternity, and only the strong steady hand of a god enslaving them forever can prevent disaster. They had a chance once to establish their own paradise and look what happened.
Submit to Hades.
Submit to Darkseid.
Submit to the Presence.
Just.
Submit.
PAUL: I am pro-dead people slavery, and I endorse this message!
- Location
- Oceanside
I don't know, even if the antisemitism that occurred wasn't approved by clergy, it still makes it pretty bad in my book.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
I could hit the quote button, but I'm not going to, because my comment was immediately underneath yours. Had any other replies separated the two, I would have hit the quote button.
And no, I didn't say Status Quo and Cultural Inertia affect missionary work. I said it effects comic storylines and settings.
She wasn't trying to convert anyone. I'm not sure how many people know her origin, either. She thinks of herself as an Amazon after all, and speaks of herself that way.
- Location
- United States
Yes, and if I put my phone down for 45 minutes while I eat breakfast, come back and refresh the page, and hit the pings button I'll very likely miss messages like that.
Misunderstood you but I think what I said was reasonable; people tend to stick with what they know and what they grew up with. Even if this story tries to break away from status quo and cultural inertia in terms of story events it'd have to ignore the fact that they are very much things that would affect missionary work and make it very difficult to get people to convert.
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Fair enough, I just figured at some point she'd have given some kind of explanation as to why she was so much more than the rest of the Amazons. An explanation that would need to mention the Greek gods, or at least Gaia.
From there my reasoning is: if a literal walking, talking, flying demigoddess purporting to be empowered by the Greek Gods isn't enough to make you convert I don't think Thana and her doom and gloom message about Hell and an offer to worship the Greek pantheon will do much better.
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