ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Whoa there, all he said was "I disagree with it but it shouldn't be mocked or denigrated"?
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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TaliesinSkye
J.D., Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
If you wanted to you could explain this away as the Olympians being fairly active in the lives of their few modern worshipers but when there were far more worshipers around the chances of any individual seeing a divine miracle were pretty low. This would make sense if the amount of godly involvement in the world was roughly constant regardless of the number of worshipers, which makes sense if they can't do an unlimited number of things at once and have limited time.
I'd like to see them try with the backing of the she serves
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
He did. DC Hell is an accurate representation of its followers, the DC comic writers who made it that way. You may have not noticed, but this is a 'One Big Change' type of story. Except for the insertion of the SI, he has taken everything else 'as is' from existing elements of DC canon. With the rule that that is the Young Justice version of DC canon as far as is possible, but if a setting element is not covered by the Young Justice franchise, he falls back to pre Nu-52 continuity, with Hellblazer events overriding that as appropriate.
And if that setting leads to some headbangers, well that is the setting the SI found himself in, warts and all. He is not going to gloss over the unflattering parts, because that defeats the entire point of the exercise. The whole Nabu affair was rather offensive the way it was shown in the story. That doesn't mean Zoat is going to rewrite the plot to make Nabu more palatable. Instead the SI is going to be exposed to something rather repugnant morally, and deal with repugnancy in a more believable manner.
DC's Hell, is the same thing. The idea of it offending you is things working as intended. Now what happens when it offends someone who happens to be the SI, who cannot retroactively rewrite reality so Hell was 'done properly' but is stuck with it as DC made it? I for one, hope the answer is not to just ignore it. That sounds positively horrendous.
Are... you listening to yourself?
This is a terrible thing to ask someone to do.
Have a character act out of character for the intended purpose of making the story have less depth and more meaningless fluff.
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Sometimes, disagreement is not OK. If you disagree with the idea that "Nazism is wrong" or "we shouldn't legalize murdering random people on the street" for example, that's not OK. Similarly, homophobia is not OK.
I'm not saying that expressing such opinions should be BANNED, mind you. But they're certainly not OK opinions to have.
- Location
- Australia
Do you really think it was accidental???
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
It's what's great about a story where even side characters have agency. You don't need the SI to do everything themselves for a thing to be done.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
...I thought the whole point of this discussion was that disagreement is OK. Even if your words constitute a criticism of something that is very important and close to someone else's heart, as a monotheistic religion is clearly close to @Trilobite's heart (prompting the original comment), you are still allowed to make that criticism.
Do you realise what a 180 you've taken here?
Isn't that a distinction without a difference? If the mods won't stop you posting, but they will in return allow others to swear at you, call you a blight on society, and express a wish for you to get together with your friends and kill each other off, can we really say that you've been allowed to freely hold your opinion?
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Let's see how well you pass the Golden Rule...
Would that have been an acceptably civil and respectful post for someone to write? Based on your red text, you would answer No. So why was it acceptable when religion was the target?
Would that have been an acceptably civil and respectful post for someone to write? Based on your red text, you would answer No. So why was it acceptable when religion was the target?
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And indeed, I SAID they're still allowed to make that criticism. Whether that criticism is a symptom of unacceptable beliefs (I struggled not to use the word evil there), though, depends on exactly what the criticism is. All sides are not always equally valid.
You're interpreting what I've said incorrectly. Essentially, WHAT's being said does matter.
No, it's not. Freedom of speech doesn't require that others be prevented from expressing that what you're saying is vile, on the contrary, it requires that they be allowed to say that, just as you were allowed to say the things they consider vile in the first place.
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Again with this mistaken idea that if one viewpoint is OK, all of them are... if he had been complaining about negative portrayal of Nazism, instead of christianity, I doubt there'd be much resistance to me calling his beliefs unacceptable.
Was my post necessarily civil? No, I admittedly struggle with civility against those with the most heinous opinions. Was it wrong? No.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Not sure that that can happen to Skyfathers.
NEVAR!ine..
EggsZachary!
Yeah, that's pretty damned SJW thinking. People talking about fictional things hurt other peoples feelings, let's bring in Blasphemy Laws! Operation Trojan Horse all over again if that crap happens.
Nah man, in order to better represent the status quo, a lot of things just weren't thought about when creating the comic book universes of Marvel and DC. So as a result there are a lot of head scratchers running around the place. The amount of mental yoga you'd need to do to sort it out, just isn't worth it. Unless you're Zoat and you read the exact answer in a half said sentence in a one off title from 40 years ago that maybe sold 300 copies.
Aye, but that goes against the Status Quo of comic books. Otherwise, I agree with the notion for storytelling. Joker should have just been a footnote, but he ain't.
DC has Abrahamic Hell, with eternal torment. It has other religions that don't have this. There's a side by side comparison, in the same world. That's quite enough to be getting on with, without bothering to read real world apologetics for twenty years to write a comics based fanfiction.
I, for one, would consider him a step up from almost every single deity ever seen in DC. But then, I'm a massive fan of the person that Constantine could have been/tries to be/and often is, if not for his dead and unborn twin brother's soul, as well as the circumstances of Hellworshipping British Government and Royal Family, 60's and 70's Establishment Police, and Thatchers Britain, all shitting on him.
Dude's a hero, in a depressingly bleak world, with almost no-one to turn to. Not a Superhero with all their social expectations, just a regular real hero. With magic powers, lots of knowledge of the arcane, a polite acquaintanceship with Lucifer, who's shared a fireside chat with God itself.
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infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
Thana is now automatically my favourite Amazon.
"Infinity" and "several trillion years" are, from a human perspective, indistinguishable.
A vile opinion should be attacked with as much strength as can be mustered. As much as I would strenuously disagree with someone saying that black people or Jews are subhuman, so too will I say that believing that gay people do not deserve the same rights as straight people is despicable and evil.
This is not a matter where "agree to disagree" can apply. This is not a case of debating whether X social program is worth the money or if Y tax is too high. This is a case where one side says that certain people are not worthy of the same rights as others.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
While I do agree with you for the most part here... Christian faith proponents have not to my knowledge in US modern culture (I am not familiar with Australia's history, so I cannot speak to there) been subject to violence for their beliefs to any appreciable (note; not belittling the violence that has happened, making a comparison here) extent compared to those who are LGBT; persecution still happens today. It is tacit approval of that to disapprove of homosexual relations. Yes, it's not fair to see it that way.
But when you witness friends of yours struggling with self image, depression, and suicide because their parents constantly talk about "the fags" (and no, that's not uncommon in the deep south where I have the misfortune to live; three of my high school friends ended up that way), it's a little hard to feel sympathy for people that claim un-hateful disapproval of it.
Because if they ever have a kid? That shit's gonna stick.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Well, indeed. Elaine might be interested in giving up the position, but Constantine now has the power to incinerate the soul of anyone who thinks about asking him to take on the additional responsibility.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
You know... it's interesting to note.
There's already a Constantine in Hell. Why not leave our John to claim the Silver Throne to keep up the parallelism?
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Which brings up an interesting idea. I wonder if the demonic Constantine can have his soul purified, healed, and then released.
Constantine's gruff, but he's easily one who could wield an Indigo Ring. Sending that version of him out into space'd be neat. That's a lot more POWER than hellmagic.
Constantine's gruff, but he's easily one who could wield an Indigo Ring. Sending that version of him out into space'd be neat. That's a lot more POWER than hellmagic.
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RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Found the canon explanation...
Coming of the Celestials
Following the war between the Asgardians and the Olympians[citation needed], Odinlearned of the coming of the Third Host of the Celestials, alien beings of inconceivable cosmic power who had influenced the evolution of the Earth's human race and intended to judge humanity's worthiness to survive when the Fourth Host came. Odin had contacted Zeus, ruler of the Olympian gods, and they then met with the ruling gods of Earth's other pantheons to set a course of action. This would be the first such gathering of the Council. Odin, Zeus, and the Hindu god Vishnu then confronted the Third Host, which threatened to seal off the inter-dimensional passages between the gods realms and Earth unless the gods did not interfere with the Celestials' activities for a millennium. Acting on behalf of Earth's gods, Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu agreed with their terms, but Odin already began making plans for the Fourth Host, which would arrive about a millennium later.
Council of Godheads (Earth-616)
EDIT: Fuck. That's for Marvel.
- Location
- Oceanside
Whatever sympathy you might have had in this discussion will meet its limits because of this statement.
Mr Zoat's fictional portrayal of monotheism is based entirely on DCU canon - which he has demonstrated exceptional knowledge about. If you want to make an argument about real-world theology and how it differs, go right ahead, but implying that Mr Zoat "should just stop because I don't like what he's saying about my religion and he doesn't know what he's talking about" is coming dangerously close to breaking the 4th rule.
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Who's "we"? Did you not notice other characters in the story giving Paul the big "Wait, what?!" when they realised he was serious? It's kinda a big part of the story that OL has a certain perspective on the status quo that other people keep tripping over and wonder if they missed a left turn into the twilight zone.
Furthermore, while his girlfriend being sad about it provided impetus to get started, you may have missed that it was already on Orange Lantern's to-do list.
In other words, exactly how it is now in the DC Universe?
That's not Orange Lantern's situation. He's in a universe where it most certainly isn't permanent - and in which he knows dying can send you to eternal torture.
We are not in Paul's shoes (or even his universe).
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Krazyfan1
Worrying for the future.
- Location
- Australia
I'm picturing it being like a job interview
Paul: "So Mr...Vishnu was it? why should the world worship your religion?"
Just replace him with...John Constantine!
Lord of Order & Chaos & Hell & Silver City & Olympus Constantine:
"Alright now, this is just gettin' silly."
- Location
- England
The difference is significant in the context of the post I was replying to. It's basic math*.
5 billion years (estimate of time till Sun goes Red Giant) of Greek god torture of, say, 8 billion people is 4x10^18 person-torture-years (PTYs, as in 'I PTY the fool who messes with Mr T.').
1 person tortured for 200 billion years (very rough estimate till last sun goes out) is a mere 2x10^11 PTYs. That's a factor of 20,000,000 in favor of Hell torment for one as opposed to Greek god torment for everyone.
However if hell was eternal then it would be 4x10^18 PTYs for the Greek god vs literally infinite PTYs for one guy in hell.
* May include basic math errors.
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