With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

[Trilobite]

You'll have to blame DC for that one. Mr Zoat would have to discard canon to follow your advice.

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He doesn't have to discard it, he just doesn't have to use it. This fic is basically founded on the idea of OL exploring the various parts of the DC universe and contemplating the consequences of what he finds on wider reality. There is nothing stopping Mr Zoat from simply brushing past it, he doesn't have to dive into all the nuance worldbuilding implications of it. "Hey look, there's hell. Let's kill some demons, help Constantine save a couple of kids and then move on to something else instead of bringing up ethics debates about how in DC the ethical option is to kill the missionaries."

Sure it would be a little out of character for Lantern to just ignore it. Especially on the backdrop of how much effort he's put into pulling magic into the public consciousness. But it also makes the story a lot simpler and more acceptable for anyone who feels strongly on the issue

Or you know accept that comic book universes are an amalgamation of a century of pop fiction written by dozens of authors, and that none of the religions in them have been even close to accurately depicted.

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I do accept that. If I thought that it was a serious portrayal I would have stopped reading the moment it came up. My distaste for the resurrection focus of the last few chapters is probably colouring my response.

However, that doesn't change the fact that we now have a character who is now starting a campaign to portray Christianity as evil, and that thanks to the abomination that is DC Christianity it's also the right thing to do.



As a comparison how would someone react if I decided to write a story in which I based a character on their parent/spouse/child/significant-loved-one that's close enough that everyone knows who I'm talking about, and then I start claiming that my character (who isn't actually the person its based on) secretly likes having sex with the family pet and dismembering and sacrificing babies so we should probably shoot them in the head.

Sure in no way could you possibly consider this as an accurate representation. That doesn't make its existence any less insulting or inflammatory.

 

[rkyeun]

ah! You've really got to love the DC verse accidentally making monotheism the worst of all religions.

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To be fair, it wasn't DC that did that. They just stayed true enough to the source material that it came through anyways.

 

[Rafin]

So... she's going to work towards making it easier for the greek gods to manifest upon the world?
AKA Zeus can turn into swans to fuck people/Ares can go around smacking people down/Athena can go and be upset at people being better at a craft than her/etc?
That's... that's not exactly a kindness, there.

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Hmm, tough choices. Being transformed into a swan and then raped, or eternal torture? I'd pick the swan thing. Having my whole city with everyone in burned to the ground or... eternal torture again, for me and probably multiple of my loved ones. Number one again. Being severely but temporarily punished for the crime of being excellent at a skill or eternal torture. Guess what I'd pick.

though their vision was then adopted by religious authorities.

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That's kind of the thing though. It doesn't just matter what the official doctrine is but also what a plurality of religious laymen believe. A thaumaturgical dimension adjacent to the material one is not just molded by a handful of books.

@Woooinion I assume that whenever a new, milder hell pops up that is still theologically adjacent to the bad hell it just gets subjugated by the one filled with terribly powerful demons, unspeakable sacrificial magic and endless hordes of tortured thralls. Same probably goes for older versions of hell that are close enough to be easily reachable. Especially if they don't have a personal strong protector keeping them separate.

discussions about the merits of a fictionalised version of real religions are something I can't support.

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You can't support people discussing something. I'm pretty sure that's an attitude many here can't support in turn.
Not to mention that your faith seems a bit wobbly if it can genuinely be messed with by any content in this story. I'd think that what you believe to be true about the universe and beyond be something that's held more firmly than that it could be damaged by things written by a bunch of anonymous guys on a fiction forum. Otherwise maybe it is time to reevaluate what it is you think is true and why you believe it to be true in the first place, so that you can either shore up your faith or realign it.

 

[PDV]

Not really, just hold up a jagged sickle and give him a hard look. He'll get the message.

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For Zeus in particular, what you need to do is crack open his skull to let Metis out so she can give birth to the sickle-wielder. Prophecy, you know; it's very particular.

 

[Yog]

I am deeply surprsied and troubled by Paul's lack of support. No offer of Danner enchantment for personal security? No flight belt or other equipment for further personal security? Hell, not even a spell eater or two? No public support or massive amounts of money made available or a list of contacts for PR and legal assistance firms either.

Basically, Paul doesn't seem at all interested in helping right one of the greatest universe-scale atrocities he's aware of. That's baffling.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

But it also makes the story a lot simpler and more acceptable for anyone who feels strongly on the issue

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But what about those of us who have strongly enjoyed the story as is? With strength.

 

[Indophenol]

He doesn't have to discard it, he just doesn't have to use it. This fic is basically founded on the idea of OL exploring the various parts of the DC universe and contemplating the consequences of what he finds on wider reality. There is nothing stopping Mr Zoat from simply brushing past it, he doesn't have to dive into all the nuance worldbuilding implications of it. "Hey look, there's hell. Let's kill some demons, help Constantine save a couple of kids and then move on to something else instead of bringing up ethics debates about how in DC the ethical option is to kill the missionaries."

Sure it would be a little out of character for Lantern to just ignore it. Especially on the backdrop of how much effort he's put into pulling magic into the public consciousness. But it also makes the story a lot simpler and more acceptable for anyone who feels strongly on the issue



I do accept that. If I thought that it was a serious portrayal I would have stopped reading the moment it came up. My distaste for the resurrection focus of the last few chapters is probably colouring my response.

However, that doesn't change the fact that we now have a character who is now starting a campaign to portray Christianity as evil, and that thanks to the abomination that is DC Christianity it's also the right thing to do.



As a comparison how would someone react if I decided to write a story in which I based a character on their parent/spouse/child/significant-loved-one that's close enough that everyone knows who I'm talking about, and then I start claiming that my character (who isn't actually the person its based on) secretly likes having sex with the family pet and dismembering and sacrificing babies so we should probably shoot them in the head.

Sure in no way could you possibly consider this as an accurate representation. That doesn't make its existence any less insulting or inflammatory.

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So you're saying Zoat should make the fic worse in every way because you can't handle your beliefs being criticized? Grow up. People are gonna disagree with you, and people are going to voice that disagreement. If that makes the fic unreadable for you, stop reading it, but don't suggest it be changed when most everyone else likes it the way it is.

 

[Artemisnemo]

He doesn't have to discard it, he just doesn't have to use it. This fic is basically founded on the idea of OL exploring the various parts of the DC universe and contemplating the consequences of what he finds on wider reality. There is nothing stopping Mr Zoat from simply brushing past it, he doesn't have to dive into all the nuance worldbuilding implications of it. "Hey look, there's hell. Let's kill some demons, help Constantine save a couple of kids and then move on to something else instead of bringing up ethics debates about how in DC the ethical option is to kill the missionaries."

Sure it would be a little out of character for Lantern to just ignore it. Especially on the backdrop of how much effort he's put into pulling magic into the public consciousness. But it also makes the story a lot simpler and more acceptable for anyone who feels strongly on the issue



I do accept that. If I thought that it was a serious portrayal I would have stopped reading the moment it came up. My distaste for the resurrection focus of the last few chapters is probably colouring my response.

However, that doesn't change the fact that we now have a character who is now starting a campaign to portray Christianity as evil, and that thanks to the abomination that is DC Christianity it's also the right thing to do.



As a comparison how would someone react if I decided to write a story in which I based a character on their parent/spouse/child/significant-loved-one that's close enough that everyone knows who I'm talking about, and then I start claiming that my character (who isn't actually the person its based on) secretly likes having sex with the family pet and dismembering and sacrificing babies so we should probably shoot them in the head.

Sure in no way could you possibly consider this as an accurate representation. That doesn't make its existence any less insulting or inflammatory.

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First as to why he shouldn't just brush it under the carpet you literally just said it. A point of the story is to take what has been shown to be true about the fictional universe he's in and explore the wider implications. Deliberately ignoring a section of that universe, that has had huge and and far reaching, effects on it because it is inaccurate to how the real world is would literally mean not writing the story.

Authors do not write stories only when acceptable to everyone who can read them. Further asking authors to sanitize or ignore part of the setting because some people might find them unpalatable is ridiculous. Just because you specifically dislike this section is no reason to change it. If a military veteran had spoken out that the representation of General Hardcastle was offensive and not at all in line with how a U.S. Military leader would act in such a situation, and that he was offended so we should ignore it, that would also be ridiculous.

2nd just because the setting has a portrayal of your close and personal relationship that is particularly horrifying doesn't mean that it has not been accurately portrayed as to the settings established rules. The British Government and Royal Family are literally baby killing and fornicating with animals.

 

[finbikkifin]

Constantine's currently pretty well balanced, with Order and Chaos. Can't really go giving him Hell unless you're ready to put him on the throne of the Silver City as well.

 

[Ganurath]

I wonder how Constantine would feel about taking over Hell?

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Which one?

 

[The Bushranger]

Constantine's currently pretty well balanced, with Order and Chaos. Can't really go giving him Hell unless you're ready to put him on the throne of the Silver City as well.

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That sound you just heard was Zatara reaching for his brown pants, as his current pair are filled with bricks.

 

[Woooinion]

Getting away from...
Less pleasant talk.

Does DC ever explain why people converted to monotheistec religious in the first place?

I mean, IRL, there's plenty of logical reasons that don't require that you believe the religions were true.
But those reasons don't apply in DC.
At all.

For example, early Christians in the Roman empire were frequently accused of being atheists, because they rejected the existence of other gods, and refused to venerate them.

Now, IRL, where we don't exactly have much evidence of the Roman pantheon having demonstratable powers, that made sense.

In DC, the Olympians can and will straight up murder people for disrespect, no assistance from their followers needed.
DC people know for a fact they are real.

From what I've seen, in DC, you have to earn your way into the Silver City, so the appeal Christianity gave of forgiveness, and redemption from sins doesn't really apply, and thanks to necromancy, people must have known that the supposedly forgiven people were going to hell, and that the things they were being promised were lies.

Christian scripture itself basically comes out and says that if the promises it makes are false (heaven for the redeemed) then you should abandon them and live for hedonism.
Though again, that was a situation speaking about the possibility of no gods, not other gods existing.

Even the Germanic adaptation or Christianity away from pacifism, into a demi-symcratic warrior faith, doesn't make any sense, if they were already getting legitimate help from the Germanic pantheon.
It doesn't make sense to convert away from gods whos moral system you already follow, if you know they actually exist.

The Islamic conquests are just as confusing in DC.
What happened to the Zoroastrian pantheon here? They are not Abrahemic. How did that ancient religion get supplanted all the sudden?

How did the Tengri faith of the steppe peoples (which must have been at its peak of power) suddenly get supplanted when its adhirants had just finished conquering the world under the Mongols, if the Sky Father actually existed?

...
DC based their setting off of real life, but real life doesn't make sense if the pagan pantheons have appreciable power, and demonstratable afterlives.

No one would have converted to monotheism, if they could get better results by just doing whatever they want.

 

[ptbptb]

It's kind of weird, because Hell is mostly the result of monotheism fanfic.

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As always, the TRUE evil here is fanfiction. >:

Infinite torment of even one person is a bigger wrong than anything the Greek gods could do on earth in the time remaining before the sun explodes.

Infinity is, uhh, kinda big like that.

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Eh, infinity in the DC universe isn't as infinite as it could be. The Endless are canon, so the universe - including local afterlife - is eventually going to be taken by Death of the Endless. At the far end of the universe the vast majority of souls have worn out or otherwise disappeared.

 

[Indophenol]

Eh, infinity in the DC universe isn't as infinite as it could be. The Endless are canon, so the universe - including local afterlife - is eventually going to be taken by Death of the Endless. At the far end of the universe the vast majority of souls have worn out or otherwise disappeared.

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That sounds like something Paul would want to do something about, eventually. He's got plenty of time to work on it, of course, so we're unlikely to see it in-story, but he seems unlikely to accept an inevitable end to the universe (and the lives of those he cares about).

 

[Trilobite]

I can certainly understand having issues with the representation of your religion, but what's the deal with true resurrections?

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That's just a personal distaste. I think that death should be something permanent and that making it something that can be simply undone without consequence starts to trivialise it.

Note that I mention true resurrection.

There are lots of stories that include what i think of as partial resurrections, basically resurrections with conditions and costs that mean the person isn't truly completely back. Think ghosts, or raising someone as a zombie or the resurrection stone in Potter, they're not really back or whole and it would be better to let them return to their rest. I also don't mind things like the sarcophagus in Stargate. Sure stick a person who just died in it fast enough and they're resurrected but that basically just really good medical care.

My problem is when we start bringing back people who have been dead for years as though it's not a problem. Its a massive issue with massive implications and yet Lantern started doing it because his girlfriend was sad. It's like the ultimate expression of power disparity. If your powerful or rich enough you can have your sister brought back. Everyone else will just have to put up with their loved ones being dead, it's too much effort for it to be worth it.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck if religious people are offended, and given that he's written this arc, it seems Zoat doesn't either. Why should religion be exempted from (negative) portrayal in stories? It's not somehow different from other sets of beliefs, and authors have every right to portray it negatively if they so choose, much like they could Nazism or any other set of beliefs. You're clearly biased (as I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're religious yourself).

I have no problem with someone choosing to believe in a religion, right up until the moment you try and tell people how (or if) they're allowed to talk about religion. I don't think anyone really cares if you drop the fic.

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I don't think that it should be exempt from negative perception and i dont think it should be given special treatment over other opinions or beliefs. I think it should be given the same value and rights that we give to all opinions.

I think that it is a serious issue important to many people and it should be treated as such. In the same way that I don't agree with same-sex marriage (no I am not starting that debate now) but it is a serious issue, important to many people and because of that we should not trivialise it, mock it, or denigrate it in any way.

You want to write a story showing all the problems with Christianity or any other religion go ahead. But make sure you take it seriously and that you talk about it accurately. You want an opinion, make it an informed opinion not something you based on second hand opinion you overheard in a bus stop

 

[frommerman]

This is why I have a tiny bit of respect for the people who sit on street corners trying to convert people all day. They have recognized the implications of their beliefs and chosen to act upon them. Those faithful who claim to believe in Hell and do nothing to save other humans from it are monstrous by comparison.

Doesn't stop me from being extremely annoyed with these people, of course, but I have to respect that they've taken a moment to actually think about things.

 

[Artemisnemo]

You want to write a story showing all the problems with Christianity or any other religion go ahead. But make sure you take it seriously and that you talk about it accurately. You want an opinion, make it an informed opinion not something you based on second hand opinion you overheard in a bus stop

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But it's not about that, it's about the portrayal of the DC universe and the taking it at face value, which includes how they have portrayed Christianity.

 

[bigking321]

Yeah, the religious stuff definitely makes me uncomfortable. Looking forward to getting back to his various other irons in the fire.

 

[Indophenol]

In the same way that I don't agree with same-sex marriage (no I am not starting that debate now) but it is a serious issue, important to many people and because of that we should not trivialise it, mock it, or denigrate it in any way.

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How about fuck you? I've been trying to be at least a little bit civil, and I'm not gonna engage with this conversation any further in order to avoid a flame war, but suffice to say any hope I had that you were anything but a blight upon the name of religious people in general has been dashed. People criticize your religion? You're the reason.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

In the same way that I don't agree with same-sex marriage

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How nice that my marriage should have to depend on your opinion. Yeah, I'll show you all the respect we've been shown.

 

[Trilobite]

You can't support people discussing something. I'm pretty sure that's an attitude many here can't support in turn.
Not to mention that your faith seems a bit wobbly if it can genuinely be messed with by any content in this story. I'd think that what you believe to be true about the universe and beyond be something that's held more firmly than that it could be damaged by things written by a bunch of anonymous guys on a fiction forum. Otherwise maybe it is time to reevaluate what it is you think is true and why you believe it to be true in the first place, so that you can either shore up your faith or realign it.

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My problem isn't valid discussion. My problem is the existence of DC's twisted version of my faith and its presence in a story I like. I not like it and I would rather it didn't exist or if we would just shove it in a cupboard and ignore it.

It is my opinion that its existence is to some degree offensive and that it deserves to be ignored not debated. An opinion I would happily discuss with you


Also, where do you get the idea that the existence of a fanfic is somehow going to affect my faith? It will not, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it is an issue. I like the fic, I would like to keep reading it and think that it would be better without delving into badly portrayed religion.

But what about those of us who have strongly enjoyed the story as is? With strength.

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Read away, if you like the story as it is that's fine. You hold the same right to an opinion as me and I am not trying to tell anyone what the can or cannot do. I'm simply saying that I would prefer the story avoid those elements. I'm not going to condemn others for liking it I am just giving my personal opinion.

 

[2xMachina]

Constantine's currently pretty well balanced, with Order and Chaos. Can't really go giving him Hell unless you're ready to put him on the throne of the Silver City as well.

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Constantine for God 2018!

 

[2xMachina]

That sounds like something Paul would want to do something about, eventually. He's got plenty of time to work on it, of course, so we're unlikely to see it in-story, but he seems unlikely to accept an inevitable end to the universe (and the lives of those he cares about).

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Now, he's fighting the heat death of the universe?
Tho I suppose Bleed tech & Power rings could stall out Entropy with but a wink.

 

[Trilobite]

How about fuck you? I've been trying to be at least a little bit civil, and I'm not gonna engage with this conversation any further in order to avoid a flame war, but suffice to say any hope I had that you were anything but a blight upon the name of religious people in general has been dashed. People criticize your religion? You're the reason.

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How nice that my marriage should have to depend on your opinion. Yeah, I'll show you all the respect we've been shown.

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I agree, In no way should my opinion have any effect on your marriage. It is your choice, it has nothing to do with me and I have no right to dictate what you can or cannot do. If you love someone and wish to marry them go ahead. All that matters in your marriage is your opinion on it.

Please allow me to congratulate you for deciding to a commitment to a relationship in a world where far too many people seem to view them as something transitory.

I mentioned same-sex marriage because I think that it is an important issue. It should not be mocked, it should not be dismissed, it should not trivialise. My faith is the foundation of my whole life/world, that is the level of importance and respect that I apply to any discussion of same-sex relationships.

The same laws that protect my rights should also protect the rights of others to choose differently. That they do not is a painful hypocrisy that far too many people, including those Christians who yell the loudest against it, are willing to ignore.

I should not have casually brought up such a sensitive issue in the first place.

I apologise sincerely and wholeheartedly for any perceived insult and wish you all the happiness in the world.

 

[frommerman]

It's kind of weird, because Hell is mostly the result of monotheism fanfic.

Hell as conceived by comic book writers creating the DC universe comes mostly from medieval-onwards writers and artists of no particular religious authority, though their vision was then adopted by religious authorities. Sort of like the way that Americans 'know' Santa Claus looks like is because of Coca Cola advertising.

I think the difficulty in the DC universe context is that souls have to believe they're going somewhere, and Christianity notably failed to provide an alternative to going to Heaven. So they sort of adopted the "Coca Cola commercial" version of hell as the afterlife for people who couldn't make heaven due to lack of a viable alternative. I wonder if you couldn't save people without asking them to give up their entire religion if you could just create a different Christian vision of Hell and get people to buy into it. Rather than the Hell of medieval fanfic with all the eternal torture and stuff, you could have "hell as the absence of God" and just have it be a place where people sit around bored all the time.

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The majority of Americans believe in Hell.

Whether or not Infinite Torture Prison was an original part of the religion, it is part of it now. You can't claim that something isn't part of a faith when the majority of its adherents say it is.