Paul... Paul; I get where you're coming from, but haven't you already started a religious war? They're not pokemon; you don't have to complete the set.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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Pizza
Everybody's just people.
- Location
- My house
Shouldn't most people be going to purgatory? Or limbo?
Plus, I'm pretty sure Jews don't believe in hell, so it's not like all monotheists can go to hell.
And if hell's real, shouldn't the other Christian concepts be real too, like universal reconciliation?
Clearly the empty he'll theory isn't canon here...
Plus, I'm pretty sure Jews don't believe in hell, so it's not like all monotheists can go to hell.
And if hell's real, shouldn't the other Christian concepts be real too, like universal reconciliation?
Clearly the empty he'll theory isn't canon here...
I mostly meant "and not Zeus"
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
The Witch-Worlders scientifically determined the non-existence of Limbo/Purgatory.
The Bushranger
In the Danger Zone
- Location
- TSAB Asura
There goes Paul, unleashing butterflies the size of the Monolithic Moth (and it had an appetite to match!) again.
BIT of an understatement there about ol' Sisy, Thana.
Pizza
Everybody's just people.
- Location
- My house
They might be wrong. /shrug
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
They're magic is good, they actually do know something about souls, so... sure. Any result might be wrong, but they're a reasonable authority on the subject/
Infinite torment of even one person is a bigger wrong than anything the Greek gods could do on earth in the time remaining before the sun explodes.
Infinity is, uhh, kinda big like that.
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
I thought that is how canon DC Hell got started.
Like, Hell was the absence of God's Presence. If God has no presence there, he is not really responsible for how it was run. Anyone booted from Heaven gets dropped off there, and that was the end of Gods involvement. Feel free to make your own Heaven, best of Luck. And once Hell started being inhabited, one or more of the first inhabitants had the choice of trying to make it Heaven 2.0, which is Heaven but with hookers and blow, or start torturing the new arrivals to break them and show them who is in charge.
And they chose the option that proved booting them from Heaven was probably the smart move after all.
- Location
- Ashtabula
Hmm...the version I read sid that Herakles was sent by an Oracle to talk to Prometheus for help in getting the golden apples. On his way there, he basically got told that Zeus felt kinda bad over being such a dick, and wanted Prometheus freed....provided he wore a ring of iron to show that he was still in Zeus' bondage.
HA! Oh this is just too good. I'd love to see a good brawl between the Silver city and Olympus.
I wonder, if her god even allowed that to happen, if it would take more then three days before she came back?
Really? Cuz old Testament yahweh is NOT a nice person.
He really ought to. Considering they've actually empowered a hero to help the people.
I believe it was a combination of his Armor, which is made to stand up to divine attacks, Father box, and Zeus not putting his all into it.
I mean...you can easily say the same for Modern christianity in America for certain. More pop culture "knowledge" then anything actually in the book.
What could possibly be better then a bunch of "holy" people getting together to kill each other?
- Location
- Earth
What does that matter? OL can get, at the very least, anywhere in the universe instantaneously. Just make a note of Thana's desires, and he can get there at will. Contacting him wherever he is is a little harder, but still very doable.
If he wanted to, OL COULD just give Thana a ring (and tell her to only wear it in emergencies, if she doesn't have the sort of personality that lends itself well to resisting the orange light's mind altering effects). It could let her defend herself, and more importantly, easily call OL's ring. The one big drawback I see is that if she DOES go orange light crazy, she might just try and storm hell herself, which wouldn't go well.
- Location
- Australia
I'm just hoping we move away from religion soon because at the moment I'm a couple of chapters away from dropping the fic. Love the way that orange lantern tries to exploit all the stuff that DC comic worldbuilding ignores, the tech, the magic the hundred and one different ways that people get powers that nobody thinks to replicate as well as the exploratory nature of the story. Poking and prodding at all the different corners of the DC universe to see what fun stuff we can find.
The problem is when he starts playing around with things like enacting true resurrections on a whim, as though it was a just a simple mechanical process, or diving into the details of why DC Christianity is evil and we should all convert to something else.
Sure, it's fictional. Rather than a true representation of my faith, DC Christianity is a grotesque, caricatured parody but it's very existence and its presence in the story pushes at boundaries I don't like to cross. Demons in a story? As long as you recognise that their evil and show them that way then I'm always happy to see them slaughtered. However, discussions about the merits of a fictionalised version of real religions are something I can't support.
As far as I'm concerned when it comes religion in fiction authors should do only one of 2 things.
The first option: "don't use actual religions"
It's a touchy and sensitive topic and nobody likes seeing their faith misrepresented as something it's not, even if "it's only fiction". It's not a blanket ban on religion in fiction. Invent a fiction, use a historical one nobody seriously follows. What you don't do is mess with someone's faith.
If you insist on using elements of an actual religion then there is a bit of wiggle room. Keep it only to what aspects you need and don't start debating its authenticity. You want demons, then fine but only discuss the part involving demons and don't bring the rest of the faith into it.
The second option: "do it properly"
If for whatever reason religion is a large part of your story then do your research and show an accurate representation of it as its followers perceive it. You want to include a bunch of zealotic bible-bashers have someone with more moderate views to counter it. You want a Muslim terrorist to blow something up, make it clear that there are Muslims who have a different view of their faith.
The problem is when he starts playing around with things like enacting true resurrections on a whim, as though it was a just a simple mechanical process, or diving into the details of why DC Christianity is evil and we should all convert to something else.
Sure, it's fictional. Rather than a true representation of my faith, DC Christianity is a grotesque, caricatured parody but it's very existence and its presence in the story pushes at boundaries I don't like to cross. Demons in a story? As long as you recognise that their evil and show them that way then I'm always happy to see them slaughtered. However, discussions about the merits of a fictionalised version of real religions are something I can't support.
As far as I'm concerned when it comes religion in fiction authors should do only one of 2 things.
The first option: "don't use actual religions"
It's a touchy and sensitive topic and nobody likes seeing their faith misrepresented as something it's not, even if "it's only fiction". It's not a blanket ban on religion in fiction. Invent a fiction, use a historical one nobody seriously follows. What you don't do is mess with someone's faith.
If you insist on using elements of an actual religion then there is a bit of wiggle room. Keep it only to what aspects you need and don't start debating its authenticity. You want demons, then fine but only discuss the part involving demons and don't bring the rest of the faith into it.
The second option: "do it properly"
If for whatever reason religion is a large part of your story then do your research and show an accurate representation of it as its followers perceive it. You want to include a bunch of zealotic bible-bashers have someone with more moderate views to counter it. You want a Muslim terrorist to blow something up, make it clear that there are Muslims who have a different view of their faith.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Um...nobody killing each other? I think that sounds better. WDYT?
You'll have to blame DC for that one. Mr Zoat would have to discard canon to follow your advice.
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- Location
- Somewhere in the Ashes
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Please. He wouldn't conquer hell. He'd just set things up so that when the dust settles every possible challenger is tied to every other possible challenger to create the world's most horrifying game of Twister, Constantine has the keys to the place and has fucked off to Jamaica or something, and somehow everyone blames the angels for this despite them not actually being involved.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I can certainly understand having issues with the representation of your religion, but what's the deal with true resurrections?
- Location
- Ashtabula
Breach of Rule 2 and Rule 4. Talking about how great it would be for someone to die and disrespect of arguments.
Why not? Zoat's covered at least three different mythologies since this fic started.
Mmm...no...I think I like the one that leaves me with less holy people.
- Location
- Earth
Frankly, I don't give a fuck if religious people are offended, and given that he's written this arc, it seems Zoat doesn't either. Why should religion be exempted from (negative) portrayal in stories? It's not somehow different from other sets of beliefs, and authors have every right to portray it negatively if they so choose, much like they could Nazism or any other set of beliefs. You're clearly biased (as I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're religious yourself).
I have no problem with someone choosing to believe in a religion, right up until the moment you try and tell people how (or if) they're allowed to talk about religion. I don't think anyone really cares if you drop the fic.
That's a funny image. Somebody shoots Thana, her body vanishes halfway to the ground, and another Thana just steps out of thin air with a mildly irritated expression.
- Location
- madison
this is a very in character reaction to eternal torment. Personally, I think any work that treats God and Hell as things that exist and are understood need to address how fucked up truly eternal torment is. If you want to put a different spin on it than the frankly rather tired God is evil one you could have a reveal at some point that Hell is broken. It was intended to be something else and then something went wrong. I think God is flawed would be more narratively interesting than God is evil, but then again Hellblazer made a very firm choice on that.
- Location
- Ashtabula
It strikes me as being perfectly within Hades' power. I also can't see him being upset at the thought of gaining more followers. If anything this could start up a nice competition between gods. Just who can be the best deity towards their followers?
Why not? Zoat's covered at least three different mythologies since this fic started.
Mmm...no...I think I like the one that leaves me with less holy people.
So what you're saying is you would like it if the sort of people who believe that their beliefs are so superior to other people's beliefs, that the people who disagree with them should just die...
Died.
Considering what you've been saying so far, I don't think your preferences are very good for your health since you're one of them.
Or you know accept that comic book universes are an amalgamation of a century of pop fiction written by dozens of authors, and that none of the religions in them have been even close to accurately depicted.
I mean Hades in the DCAU, is basically the pop culture depiction of the devil. That's not even mentioning the literal depiction of one of the big three as an occasional Goddess or any of the other religions that Hellblazer has messed around with. Complaining that the DC cannon isn't complaint with your specific religion is like complaining that it's not consistent with standard military or law enforcement practices. Of course it's not, it's a comic book.
- Location
- Ashtabula
Well if they want to go to war with one another over whose god has the bigger dick? Death does usually follow. I'll just sit on the sidelines and answer questions. "So Maxx, what's going on?" "Oh, these guys are fighting over whose imaginary friend is more powerful. I think the side with the better weapons is gonna win though."
Keep in mind that in this setting they aren't imaginary.
EDIT: And that supernatural apocalypses are a genuine possibility.
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Damn it Paul! Stop infecting people!
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