If Paul is smart he has a remote cutoff in the main power battery to turn off the rings of anyone who goes a little too orange and starts hording shinny things and hiding in their room.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
There's a reason Jade hasn't gotten a ring. The SI can look into a candidate's soul and see if they can handle it.
- Location
- Under a Rock
You're definitely correct that Paul is being super cavalier about lives, especially when overthrowing the Citadel. In fact, his justification neatly mirrors some of of the excuses used for accepting Nabu, which you pointed out.
IIRC, Paul said that he did it that way because he didn't have the resources to do it any other way. Which is a bit BS, because whenever Paul really wants something, he moves the Silver City and Earth to get it done. Which to me means that he didn't actually make an effort to overthrow the Citadel without killing the Citadelians, or even minimizing Citadelian causalities. Just because he didn't have the resources right then, doesn't mean he couldn't acquire them.
Off the top of my head:
-inform the Guardians that the real reason they had to stay out of Vega is no longer in Vega. Guardians swoop in and enforce the law, and they should have the facilities to go for mass imprisonment. You could even ask the Guardians before hand, to ensure that they are ready. "The Guardians don't answer my calls" is a BS excuse for anyone with a power ring.
-Do the same thing, but with the Controllers. They might be more averse to taking prisoners, but possibly they will feel responsibility for their ring getting out of their control?
-Go Ophidian on their sorry asses, take them all prisoner at once, and send the lot of them to the Zamorans for reprogramming.
-Go Ophidian on their sorry asses, take them all prisoner at once, and send the lot of them to the black mercy planet for reprogramming/stasis until we can figure out what to do with them. Do this after recruiting black mercy.
-Pay the family of super scientists to create a Phantom Zone lite. It would keep an arbitrary number of people in stasis while OL searched for a way to rehabilitate them.
These plans would all take a great deal of effort. Necessary people might say no. They might be impossible. But Paul didn't even try.
But the point of moral blame or praise isn't to keep score and declare somebody "Best Person!" The point is to guide actions and try to do better in the future. The League should feel shame for their actions, because they were wrong, and they were wrong for the exact reasons that OL said they were wrong. Just because OL should also try to improve himself doesn't change the fact that the League needs to change as well.
OL needs to get a morality pet. I nominate Hope Corgi.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Then he's cheating the story out of the narrative it set itself up for, basically ensuring the OLC will be superior to the GLC in every way and is honestly being boring.
It also helps that he's not going after who have the 'most/strongest desires' in the area, but is (as you said) going for people with weaker but more easily focused/controlled desires.
I believe that the cutoff you mentioned is called The Ophidian.
- Location
- Tulsa, Oklahoma
Goddamn it. The name of the next episode got me. Pronouncing it my head made me giggle for some reason.
Either someone is coming back to life (wrong or right, nobody know (except Zoat)) or the Resurrection Crusade is coming at OL for obvious and outrageous libel. (lol)
Edit: These are, of course, only my guesses.
Either someone is coming back to life (wrong or right, nobody know (except Zoat)) or the Resurrection Crusade is coming at OL for obvious and outrageous libel. (lol)
Edit: These are, of course, only my guesses.
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- Location
Isn't this Zantana and to a lesser extent the rest of young Justice?
- Location
- Tulsa, Oklahoma
One may go Yandere!Lantern in the future if the SI (or someone with know how) isn't watching closely enough and the other left one of their friends enslaved to save face. (From OL's perspective.)
His morality pet is obviously the Ophidian. (lol)
Morals aren't one set thing.
- Location
- Tulsa, Oklahoma
Orange Dawn, I think. Perhaps Orangest Dawn?
But that was Kadabra? Abra? Whatever his name was. Guy from the future. I think Zoat confirmed that as the Reach poking Larfleeze with a stick in the far future in the original non-SI timeline. So that Orange Dawn won't happen.
Probably.
It didn't end well for anybody.
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Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
And this is a good reason for why the OLC didn't immediately implode with more than 1 recruit, but it's not a justification for orange rings having almost no effect.
That wouldn't work. Rings can work independently of any central power battery, as the SI and now Alan demonstrate.
The SI was actually talking to Artemis there, but I take your point.
- Location
- Tulsa, Oklahoma
Vril told the SI that a Controller figured out how to drain Larfleeze's rings remotely in the universe using the OCPB.
Rings can exist and function by themselves but a Central Power Battery can affect any Rings or devices with that Particular Light without proper protections?
Edit: Since the Rings that the recruits are getting are Controller made they probably are just as susceptible to this. If not more.
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
No. What he said is something you want them to take seriously. Being blunt and confrontational is a good thing here, because OL doesn't want to take that action, but seriously intends to follow through if the JL have a moral relapse. Being polite, or using non confrontational language, makes what he said easier to ignore, or think he is bluffing, or speaking in the hypothetical. He was sincere and earnest when he called Nabu villainous before they ever voted him in the League. And Wonder Woman blew him off because he was to polite about it.
If the goal is deterrence, if you are at the point of giving an actual ultimatum, you want to be unequivocal, so there is no way of mistaking it as anything other than an ultimatum. Unless the goal is instead to give yourself a casus belli, where you want them to disregard your warning so you can then go "I warned you," and make an example out of them... Then by all means, be a 'diplomatic' as you want.
On the contrary, that is exactly what they needed to hear.
Your source is just something someone with a blog, and does not actually represent a consensus that a particular person would actually want to be called hir?
I mean you could make special chirality pronouns for left handed people, and then call a left handed person that pronoun. And that left handed person might thank you for being considerate of their left handedness. But they might also slap you cross the the face for being a presumptive twit of a SJW and inflicting a pronoun on them they never agreed to.
He actually hoped that was what was going on. That they didn't see a way to release Zatara, and an imprisoned Giovanni with the hope of being released is less terrible than a Giovanni dead in the attempt to free him, and a Nabu publicly acting like a hero is better than one totally off the rails once he showed willingness to take hostages left to his own devices. Then he went and succeeded and instead of being overjoyed Giovanni was released and recovering, they were more worried about the thing that had taken him prisoner and appalled at Paul's actions. If they had responded differently, like being pissed he didn't let them in on the plan so they could be there for backup, or that by going in Lone Ranger a member of his team had his soul destroyed in the battle... He would have been upset at the lack of communication (from them and from himself) and possibly upset because he felt they had not been trying hard enough to try to find a safe way to get Nabu off their friends head. But he would not have had caused to question their innate morality, just their effectiveness. But by declaring that Nabu was a Genuine Hero™ and League Member, not someone they were keeping close because of a lack of practical alternatives, that went beyond the pale.
At its heart, there is some corruption in the Justice League. And it stems from them treating being a Hero or a Villain not as a label dependent on your actions, but as social classes, with various privileges given to the Hero class, and stigmata to the Villian class. They had Nabu slotted into the Hero class, which meant him kidnapping someone didn't get treated the same as a Villain kidnapping someone. And since the Justice League are all Heroes, them arranging a cover up is totally different them Lex Luthor doing the same thing. Because he is a Villian after all. Or if a Big Blue alien is in a battle with the military. If you think of his as a Villain, it means you don't have to do an actual investigation (who wants to do unnecessary crime scene analysis) or try and de-escalate (sure you could remove the blue guy like OL did, or evacuate all the trigger happy idiots shooting into crowds, but any deaths will automatically be the fault of the Villain anyway, even if unnecessary deaths occur, you are still a hero). The Flash has the super speed to have done exactly what OL did, especially of he had taken the advice to have a subspace arsenal of xeno tech. He is the one person who never has an excuse to go off half cocked, what he almost did while OL was having tea with Konvikt required the exercise of willful ignorance.
Chaos, you have a habit of talking out of your ass. Earlier it was how in an argument about how you harping about charging him with illegal immigration, and another poster pointed out that no, that only applies to intentionally entering the country you ended up making the assenine assertion that by 'choosing' to crashland where he did (as opposed to landing on an uninhabitable rock and dying, or ending of somewhere else like Mars) that counted. And then made up facts about his control of the ship that is in no way vorne out by the story. In other words, fabricating false information to support your point.
Here you seem to be doing it again by saying the Citidalians weren't actively killing anyone. We know they have a fleet of ships. What do you think they have been doing with them that makes anyone give two shits about their policies. Hint: it wasn't canasta. Source: The Tamareans who lost a war with them.
No, the drawback is that an Orange Lanterns power output is conditional to how much the situation is relevant to their desires. Acting in tune with their desires can give a recruit the power intensity of a GLC veteran. Outside a relevant desire of sufficient intensity, the intensity drops. A GLC members intencity is applicable at all times and in all situations. A veteran Green Lantern has much broader scope to apply that power in a variety of situations that the unenlightened OLC member does not.
- Location
- Under a Rock
The problem is, he doesn't take any of those people into space with him, and that is where all of his thoughtless kills have taken place. Morality pets don't do much if they aren't there and you don't spend effort thinking about what they would do in that situation.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Well, I'm no advocate for gender-neutral pronouns. The chapter uses them, so I try to make what is there the correct usage.Boy, the next League meeting will be QUITE the doozy as they'll most likely discuss Paul's "Who Watches the Watchmen?" declaration, and his threat of blackmail to ensure compliance to the heroic standards that they're supposed to adhere to!
Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
Bullshit, i was talking about jurisdiction from the very first post.
The illegality of his entry nor his immigration status had anything to do with my entire argument hence why I mostly ignored it. I remarked as much several times, he came to earth and crashed on the US ergo he is 100% under the purview of US/Earth jurisdiction. I even pointed out that if he didn't want to be under our jurisdiction then he should have crashed elsewhere.
In the chapter in question Xor had told OL about the injustice of his incarceration, and when prompted to state what he wanted, he told Paul he wanted Justice.
Then the first thing he did when Paul gave him the Ring was fly away. That was entirely setup to make it appear Xor was going to leave US jurisdiction to go do what he WANTED to do. Ergo My argument that Paul had just enabled the escape of what was at the very least a criminal suspect of a number of serious crimes. Not that is matters a whole lot because it turned out to be a 'fake out' and no he didn't do what he had told Paul he wanted to do, he did something completely different.
In regards to the Citadelians both Grayven and Paul agree. The Citadelians made the laws and then let everyone else go murder happy within the bounds of them. The citadelians didn't bomb Tamaran back to the dark ages, the Gordanian clan did, the Citadelians don't raid the systems around Vega, the other factions did. The Citadelians were indeed grade A assholes, but I don't think being ruled by an asshole means their entire society deserved to be genocided, even more so when there were a lot more alternatives. And that whole tangent is only relevant because Paul is being a hypocrite and an asshole he did much wrose than the Justice League and he did it for the same utilitarian reasons they did... No actually his is worse because their sin is mostly through inaction, while Paul was 100% committed all the way through for his.
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But Paul said "like that but in reverse" Did he just not hear the second part? And Paul being from a fictional world wouldn't explain how he knows stuff he shouldn't, so I really can't see how Constantine was satisfied with that conclusion.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
The reverse of someone going from as real world into a fictional world isn't going from a real world into a fictional world. Its going from a fictional world to a real world.
Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*facepalm* What part of "crash-landing has no steering" do you not understand? Besides, if he breathes oxygen, he has nowhere else to go in this solar system.
...do you even read this story? They weren't ruled by an asshole, they were literally cloned and socially shaped into nigh-indistinguishable homocidal assholes. Heck, in the Renegade section, even Mother Box was hard-pressed to say that they didn't deserve death, and Mother Box is likely one of the most benevolent characters in the entirety of the DC Universe. Were there other options? Sure. Was it worth the time and effort involved in trying to redeem an entire race of murderers in an attempt to save even a few? Not really. Paul doesn't have infinite time; he'll go to some effort to try to turn an individual, because he can effectively reason with an individual and make it worth their while to change their ways, but that's not an effective method with an entire society. He'd have to reason with each and every one. And that's not even getting into the fact that all the individuals that Paul has tried to negotiate with have had the shared set of assumptions that come with humanity, where the Citadelians don't. Makes it all the harder to reason with them, and gives him less reason to even bother when he could just kill them and move on to people who are actually open to negotiation.
Now, would I have made the same choice as Paul? Not really. But I can see why he did it.
Noooo, it's really not. These aren't even equivalent actions. Paul responded to injustice by trying to purge it. The League responded to injustice by... not really seeing it as a problem. You may strongly disagree with what Paul did in the course of stopping the injustice, but he did stop it. Paul's actions meant that nobody else would ever be killed or enslaved or dissected without anesthetic because of the Citadelians, and the League's actions meant that an innocent man was enslaved and his daughter nigh-abandoned for months. You can argue that Nabu was doing enough good to outweigh it, but it wasn't anything Nabu couldn't have done while also allowing Zatara to have even one day a week off. Nabu refused to even allow that, and the League permitted this state of affairs in spite of the fact that none of them could really say that justice was being done. Yeah, Flash was worried about Klarion, but again, Klarion could have been stopped without Nabu puppeting Zatara 24/7, far more easily than reforming the Citadelians would have been. The only thing these actions have in common is that they spark multipage arguments every time someone brings them up.
I wasn't aware than O'Flynn got carried away into fiction. After rereading the scene (and informing myself about O'Flynn) I guess Constantine could have understood him that way, but it still seems weird to me how Paul is supposed to know stuff about the real world when he's from a fictional one.
Converse (part 21)
- Location
- Hampden Park
15th September
15:08 GMT -2
Lantern Xor doesn't seem too impressed by my ice fortress, but that might just be because his face has little mobility.
"While I'm.. sure that the truth will eventually out, I think that.. it might be best if you didn't make any unsupervised trips to… Ah, anywhere, at the moment."
"I understand."
"The corridors might be a bit of a squeeze, but you can use your ring to transfer yourself between the outside and the rooms inside."
"Do you have news broadcasts?"
"Earth has hundreds of news channels. Your ring can filter them for you, or record and show you the bits you're interested in."
"How do I learn your life code? Your laws?"
"Huh. How do you feel about telepathy?"
"What is that?"
Ah. Yes, I suppose he might well not have encountered it before. "The ability of one being to connect their mind to that of another."
"Like technopathy?"
"I don't know anyone who can communicate with machines like that." Which -given the wide variety of power sets I'm familiar with- is a little odd, now I think about it. I wonder why that is? "And the machines don't necessarily have minds of their own, so it isn't quite the same."
"No. Not communicating from a brain to a machine. Communicating from a machine to a brain."
"Sort of? Do your people have systems like that?"
His eyes narrow slightly, but he isn't looking at me. "I learned like that. When I joined the army. It hurt."
"It might take them a little while to learn how your brain works, but none of the people who've been taught by the G-Gnomes have mentioned pain. A little.. temporary disorientation and confusion, yes, but not pain. Alternatively, your ring can access statute law and case law, or.. you can wait until our appointment with your attorney and ask him whatever questions you have." He turns his head towards me, but doesn't otherwise respond. "I've been meaning to ask: were you the only one in your pod?"
"No. Graak was also there. He was my barrister."
"Ah. I should.. probably track him down before he gets himself in trouble. Do you.. want anything now, or-."
"The man who first attacked me. Will he be punished?"
"Not sure. Given the number of broken bones he received and.. the particulars of the way police officers in the United States are allowed to attack with lethal force, I.. doubt it."
"And the warlord who attacked the town because I was in it?"
"Yes. General Hardcastle is already in custody. That will be a fairly long process, but eventually-."
He perks up. "Do your people allow trial by combat?"
"No." He shuffles sullenly. "We believe that justice is best served by discovering facts and dispassionately analysing them. Arcane truth compulsion hasn't quite caught on in most places, but I'm sure we'll get there in the end. You'll probably be called upon to give testimony at some point, but don't worry about that right now, we'll explain how everything works well ahead of time."
He nods, still clearly unhappy. "Why are you doing this?"
"Which bit?"
"Helping me. I haven't done anything for you."
"You didn't punch me."
"You didn't attack me. And I thought you were a civilian. Killing you would have been dishonourable."
"You wouldn't have been able to punch me."
He looks sceptical. "I have a great deal of experience in punching people. You were not moving."
I tap my forehead with my right forefinger, smiling. "Try it."
He looks at me curiously for a moment, then in a quick motion shoves at my forehead with the palm of his right hand. My kinetic barrier absorbs the force effortlessly.
"I like to give people a chance to demonstrate that they're willing to make the right choices… But I try to avoid being stupid about it. If you had hit me, your fist would have stopped. And I would have been sad that you tried, and I would have disabled you until such time as the situation could be fully investigated. I still think that you would have escaped a murder conviction, but you would have spent the intervening period in a secure facility rather than here."
He nods. "Wise."
"I do my best. But -more than not punching me - you have a desire to change the universe in a way I approve of. You want justice. At the moment, you just want it for yourself. But I'm hoping that you'll come to see that injustice inflicted on other people by the same system which so ill-served you is just as much of a problem."
"Why?"
"Because I want you to fix the system."
He stands completely rigid for a moment. "I am not a lawyer or a politician."
"Then maybe you fix the system by making a new, better system. I can teach you how to investigate crimes. Your ring can create all of the tools you need. And once you have all of the data you-."
There's a puff of violet-tinted smoke. Having learned his lesson from Thayer's Notch, Lantern Xor settles for reinforcing his environmental shield rather than just punching-
"There you are!"
-Zatanna in the face. Or the small chain-wreathed white-yellow reptilian floating beside her.
Zatanna's not wearing either the clothes I last saw her in or her uniform. Or the power armour I made for her. She's wearing solid-looking boots and has replaced her tights with black trousers decorated with runic… Those aren't decorations. She's actually got spells bound to her trousers. Looks like… Protection and fortune? She's replaced the dress shirt with a Kevlar vest coloured black and white, again with protective sigils picked out in… No, that's orichalcum, isn't it? There's a white cape, but the sigils there say flight and concealment so I'll give it a pass. And she's carrying the Staff of Love, but it appears to be inactive. That's a good sign.
"It's been hours! I was wondering where you'd vanished to." Zatanna notices me noticing her new look. "You like it? I know you made me the power armour, but it's just a bit too clunky for me." She smiles, then turns her attention to Lantern Xor. "Is this yours?"
The diminutive alien -Graak, probably- floats towards him. Xor thinks about it for a few moments, then nods.
"Sniahc raeppasid."
The chains vanish, and Graak scampers across the ground, climbs up Xor and settles on his right shoulder to glare at Zatanna.
"You replaced the conventional armour plates with bound spells. Clever." She beams. "I can't wait to look over your design documentation."
15:08 GMT -2
Lantern Xor doesn't seem too impressed by my ice fortress, but that might just be because his face has little mobility.
"While I'm.. sure that the truth will eventually out, I think that.. it might be best if you didn't make any unsupervised trips to… Ah, anywhere, at the moment."
"I understand."
"The corridors might be a bit of a squeeze, but you can use your ring to transfer yourself between the outside and the rooms inside."
"Do you have news broadcasts?"
"Earth has hundreds of news channels. Your ring can filter them for you, or record and show you the bits you're interested in."
"How do I learn your life code? Your laws?"
"Huh. How do you feel about telepathy?"
"What is that?"
Ah. Yes, I suppose he might well not have encountered it before. "The ability of one being to connect their mind to that of another."
"Like technopathy?"
"I don't know anyone who can communicate with machines like that." Which -given the wide variety of power sets I'm familiar with- is a little odd, now I think about it. I wonder why that is? "And the machines don't necessarily have minds of their own, so it isn't quite the same."
"No. Not communicating from a brain to a machine. Communicating from a machine to a brain."
"Sort of? Do your people have systems like that?"
His eyes narrow slightly, but he isn't looking at me. "I learned like that. When I joined the army. It hurt."
"It might take them a little while to learn how your brain works, but none of the people who've been taught by the G-Gnomes have mentioned pain. A little.. temporary disorientation and confusion, yes, but not pain. Alternatively, your ring can access statute law and case law, or.. you can wait until our appointment with your attorney and ask him whatever questions you have." He turns his head towards me, but doesn't otherwise respond. "I've been meaning to ask: were you the only one in your pod?"
"No. Graak was also there. He was my barrister."
"Ah. I should.. probably track him down before he gets himself in trouble. Do you.. want anything now, or-."
"The man who first attacked me. Will he be punished?"
"Not sure. Given the number of broken bones he received and.. the particulars of the way police officers in the United States are allowed to attack with lethal force, I.. doubt it."
"And the warlord who attacked the town because I was in it?"
"Yes. General Hardcastle is already in custody. That will be a fairly long process, but eventually-."
He perks up. "Do your people allow trial by combat?"
"No." He shuffles sullenly. "We believe that justice is best served by discovering facts and dispassionately analysing them. Arcane truth compulsion hasn't quite caught on in most places, but I'm sure we'll get there in the end. You'll probably be called upon to give testimony at some point, but don't worry about that right now, we'll explain how everything works well ahead of time."
He nods, still clearly unhappy. "Why are you doing this?"
"Which bit?"
"Helping me. I haven't done anything for you."
"You didn't punch me."
"You didn't attack me. And I thought you were a civilian. Killing you would have been dishonourable."
"You wouldn't have been able to punch me."
He looks sceptical. "I have a great deal of experience in punching people. You were not moving."
I tap my forehead with my right forefinger, smiling. "Try it."
He looks at me curiously for a moment, then in a quick motion shoves at my forehead with the palm of his right hand. My kinetic barrier absorbs the force effortlessly.
"I like to give people a chance to demonstrate that they're willing to make the right choices… But I try to avoid being stupid about it. If you had hit me, your fist would have stopped. And I would have been sad that you tried, and I would have disabled you until such time as the situation could be fully investigated. I still think that you would have escaped a murder conviction, but you would have spent the intervening period in a secure facility rather than here."
He nods. "Wise."
"I do my best. But -more than not punching me - you have a desire to change the universe in a way I approve of. You want justice. At the moment, you just want it for yourself. But I'm hoping that you'll come to see that injustice inflicted on other people by the same system which so ill-served you is just as much of a problem."
"Why?"
"Because I want you to fix the system."
He stands completely rigid for a moment. "I am not a lawyer or a politician."
"Then maybe you fix the system by making a new, better system. I can teach you how to investigate crimes. Your ring can create all of the tools you need. And once you have all of the data you-."
There's a puff of violet-tinted smoke. Having learned his lesson from Thayer's Notch, Lantern Xor settles for reinforcing his environmental shield rather than just punching-
"There you are!"
-Zatanna in the face. Or the small chain-wreathed white-yellow reptilian floating beside her.
Zatanna's not wearing either the clothes I last saw her in or her uniform. Or the power armour I made for her. She's wearing solid-looking boots and has replaced her tights with black trousers decorated with runic… Those aren't decorations. She's actually got spells bound to her trousers. Looks like… Protection and fortune? She's replaced the dress shirt with a Kevlar vest coloured black and white, again with protective sigils picked out in… No, that's orichalcum, isn't it? There's a white cape, but the sigils there say flight and concealment so I'll give it a pass. And she's carrying the Staff of Love, but it appears to be inactive. That's a good sign.
"It's been hours! I was wondering where you'd vanished to." Zatanna notices me noticing her new look. "You like it? I know you made me the power armour, but it's just a bit too clunky for me." She smiles, then turns her attention to Lantern Xor. "Is this yours?"
The diminutive alien -Graak, probably- floats towards him. Xor thinks about it for a few moments, then nods.
"Sniahc raeppasid."
The chains vanish, and Graak scampers across the ground, climbs up Xor and settles on his right shoulder to glare at Zatanna.
"You replaced the conventional armour plates with bound spells. Clever." She beams. "I can't wait to look over your design documentation."
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shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Why does that artist hate colour and symbology, 2 things that define superheroes?
I think Zatanna's outfit looks fine for, like, a Nico Minoru- type character, but yeah, while I am all for more sensible superhero outfits, they still need to be colorful and inspirational. Zatanna's actually the only one of those I sort of like, even if I don't really think it works with an adult Zatanna. Looks fine for a YJ Zatanna, though.
Also, about the story, genuinely curious about Kilg%ore. Have not read any issues with him, I think. It does occur to me that there aren't many technopaths in DC. Blacksmith, one of the Flash's rogues, I think is one, so's Joyride from Milestone, but since he's a Bang Baby, he wouldn't be active on E-16-ZOAT.
Equally important question. Who would even consider taking Zatanna in a "gothic anti-hero direction" a good idea!?
- Status